Khellendros460's page

Hey Dane, Keven here are you going to Paizocon in June? If so i am still missing some scenarios that you GM'd for, and still need Chronicle sheets for the affected characters. You can contact me at khellendros460@hotmail.com to converse more on this subject. Thanks! You should come down once in awhile and play some PFS@O.C.C in Olympia.

While this kind of snarky response may fly on the general section of the boards, I'd ask that you refrain from taking the holier than thou "I know history, so I'm right" attitude here on the Pathfinder Society section of the forums.

Firstly, this is often a spot for new players to learn about the game, seeing this kind of post doesn't do anything to enamor them to the community.

Secondly, Pathfinder Society is by its definition run by the game-rules as-written. While you may find it interesting to postulate how the armor rules should work using real-world examples, they plainly don't have any real purpose on this section of the forum. As-written, mithril works exactly as Callarek has indicated.

For a switch-hitter ranger, Mihtril Full plate is a very solid choice (assuming you're willing to take a level of fighter or burn a feat for heavy armor proficiency). While expensive, it's not nearly as bad as one might think, and you're looking at the good possibility of owning a magically-enhanced suit by 5th level. You should have the required gold by that point, and should have suitable PA to enchant it up to +2 shortly thereafter.

Just so you know and i am not trying to be snarky, i am a metalurgic fabrication specialist with my employer in RL. I am a huge history buff, i was just trying to show a more refined look at heavy armors and how restrictive they can be. I will say this again i am finished arguing my point due to the fact that...and you are correct this is about introducing new players to Pathfinder and i encourage that. I do appologize if i sounded snarky, it was not my intent.

Unfortunately mithral is a fantastical representation of modern day Titanium, obviously crafters during the medieval era did not have this wonderfull metallic alloy. The best metallic ore during that era was Spanish iron ore, which was refined greatly into very sturdy and somewhat flexible iron. I do agree with you that had the R&D personnel wanted to include more detailed facts about various armors they would have done so.

Remember that mithral armor is also considered to be less restrictive than normal armor of its type.

From the PFSRD wrote:

Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

That, to me, shows that your "more restrictive" argument doesn't hold water. It makes the former heavy armors allow Dex bonuses equivalent to normal medium armors, +2 to +3, the same as 3 out of 4 medium armors. It also makes their ACPs the same or lower than the normal medium armors with the same Dex maximum, as well.

So, other than the heavy proficiency requirement, which will burn a feat slot for ranger or barbarian, they shouldn't have any other trouble, besides the cost, with mithral full plate.

I can clearly see, that reason, and historical knowledge is not one of your strong points. Here is a link of a representation of typical medieval Full plate (armor), hopefully this will help you come to understand some of my finer points regarding the design of different types of armors, and how mithral doesn't change the flexibility of the more heavier armors such as Full plate and Half plate armor. However, knowing how gamers, who are Min./Maxers want every thing to go in thier favor, i will end my argument on armors made from mithral. I wish you all the utmost success in your future gaming endeavors.

Khellendros460 wrote:

Here is some of the text from the Core book on what Mithral does to armors...Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

I think its fairly clear.

It's an issue of proficiency, but beyond that it's medium armor for the limitation on ranger combat style.

-James

Hi James i can understand your point based on what RAW states about mithral armors. I am nit-picking which is one of my flaws of several. I am just going one step further with mithral armors, the mithral is lighter as far as load bearing movement and armor check penalties due to the weight. However; Heavy armor such as Half-plate, Full plate, Banded mail, Splint mail etc...are armors that are very restrictive in the upper body, torso, and hip/leg area. These types of armors are heavy due to the extra padding required underneath these armors to prevent chafing in pinch point areas, also the material that they are made out of adds extra weight. Now here is my point of armors made of mithral, mithral is as hard as steel, or iron with half of the weight encumberance, the design of the armors never change. Most of these types of armors cause pinch points, such as the shoulder areas, the hips/groin areas in the case of Half-plate armor, and Full plate armor. The other heavy armors have restrictions in the shoulder areas, either by design or weight or both, in which case Mithral reduces the weight of the armor making it easier to bear the load, the armors still have restriction areas as afore mentioned.

I do appologize for making "a mountain out of a mole hill" so to speak, in regards in interpreting the description of the effects of mithral to metallic armors.

True, that would have to be a mithril full-plate. An oversight on my part.

Since mithril armor is rare in PFS scenarios, I may have to consider making this a 12 lvl fighter build instead. But for now I will probably assume a breastplate is used at higher levels.

Hi Diego, i was looking up how Mithral functions as far as how the armor changes categories, ie. Heavy to Medium, Medium to Light and so on. Here is some of the text from the Core book on what Mithral does to armors...Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.So with what it states here Mithral changes armor from one category to a lighter one for purposes of movement and other limitations, here is the rub: the armor is still treated as Heavy armor, so it can be a gray area as far as any class that has limitations of special abilities that require a type of armor worn, or whatever the case may be in regards to said special ability of the class. It may very well be that a Ranger is only allowed to wear medium armor to retain the use of his/her special abilities in this case the Combat Style feats, so even if the armor is Mithral Full Plate, it is still Heavy armor. This to me is a special kind of quandary, and again i may be totally wrong on all accounts on how to interpret the wording from the Core book.

I hope i haven't caused you any due frustration, it was not my intent, i just wanted to give you something to consider.

OK. Heres my take on a pretty straight forward switch hitter.

It's a very basic meat and potatoes.
If anyone has some good advice on how to optimize the character any further, please let me know.

The tactics are very siple; pepper enemies with arrows untill they make the mistake of closing into melee - then cut them down!

** spoiler omitted **

Hi there Diego! I was looking over your build for your switch hitter, overall very nice build, with one exception which may have been an oversight. I noticed you went 2 levels of Ranger for the Fav. Enemy bonus, and combat style special feature of Ranger, as your progression furthers down the chain, i noticed you have your character outfitted with Full Plate. A Ranger's special combat feature Combat Style: Melee/Archery only works when you are in medium armor or light armor or no armor, anything higher than medium armor and you lose the ability from the combat style feature from Ranger. I may be wrong on this account, but i think you can outfit your character with Mithral Full Plate, and the Mithral changes the armor's category from Heavy to Medium, thereby allowing your character to retain the Ranger's Combat Style features.

I don't know what mods everyone has played, but if there is any interest in either #12 Stay of Execution or #33 Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible I'll step up to the plate and DM one or both.

Another option would to run one that you, Keven, could play since you seem to run a lot.

I don't think i have played either of those scenario's, so i am agreeable to whatever the concensus is as to what people want to play; However i would like to play #12, since it's almost run it's course for allowable Mods. I think it's rather magnanimous of you to DM. I don't mind DM'g i have a good time trying to find ways to make the game fun, and challenging to any that dare play under me.

Hey Dojo, it was unfortunate that we started late, had no idea that we (myself and Angela) would need to help 2 new PFS players make characters for play, lesson learned. I assure you, we will try to leave the house 30 minutes earlier in the future, we have to stop and pick up 2 people along the way, i understand this is no excuse; However we shall strive to be at least 15-30 minutes early on PFS days.

It's relatively Tangent. The Duskblade like any other class could be "broke"... it did have full BAB and 6 levels of spell progression... but about all it could do was HP damage... it didn't take hits too well, and didn't have great saves. With the magic items involved and two weapon fighting (which has some issues in this case, as you could only do the duskblade's stuff with one weapon at a time) it is possible, but there are other issues too (like how many swift actions you allowed him to have... he couldn't do all that stuff he wanted to in one round).

But no more or less so than the stuff that can be done with core wizards/clerics/druids or splat book anything honestly...

It as always comes down to comfort level and what the players and DM expect from each other and communication about such expectations.

Per the special class ability Arcane Channeling a Duskblade can make a Full Attack action to deliver any touch spell he/she knows to all attacks in a round to include 2 weapons he/she is weilding.

As a GM you could limit a Duskblade who weilds a weapon in each hand to have the Still spell Metamagic feat in order to cast any touch spell, if the Duskblade does not have said feat then they would need a free hand to perform the required somantic gestures to cast spells if required to do so, if the Duskblade has the Quick Draw feat or a +1 attack bonus to be able to draw a weapon as a free action during movement, the Duskblade at that time can only channel the touch spell into his/her Primary weapon only!

The Duskblade would need to be Level 13 in order to do what is called Arcane Channeling to make a full attack with any touch spell that he/she knows or can cast, also they have what is called Quick Cast X times per day, which would allow a Lvl 13 Duskblade to quickcast Blade of Blood which last 1 round per level or until discharged, then he/she could make a full attack action with another touch spell like Shocking Grasp on all attacks, the Blade of Blood spell and the Shocking Grasp spell could both be used in conjunction with the full attack action per the Arcane Channeling and Quickcast in 1 round, therefore allowing both spells damage to be applied to all attacks (providing they all hit)in a round.

I stand correct myself on my earlier post about the Duskblade. On Pg.186 of the PFRPG it states under heading Touch Spells in Combat: subheading Holding the Charge: (fourth sentance)If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. So if you cast a touch spell and decided to hold the charge of that spell, casting another spell dissipates the held spell. My corrected response to the Duskblades possible action for the round is this: A Duskblade could cast Crown of Might and then as an immidiate action discharge it to gain a +8 enhancement bonus to Strentgh for 1 round, then as part of the full attack action per Arcane Channeling deliver the attack. You cannot combine a swift action such as Quick Cast and as an immidiate action discharge the spell Crown of Might to get the secondary effect. You can, however, Quick Cast Seeking Ray, then as a full attack action per Arcane Channeling cast Crown of Might to recieve a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength for 1 round to deliver the full attack recieveing the +2 enhancemnt bonus to Strength on all of the attacks channeled through the weapon.

Ok... so was my old 3.5 player in error when he used Shocking Grasp through his sword and got the extra damage on -every- attack of a full round attack on his Duskblade (in addition to Blade of Blood I think it was and Crown of Might)?

The Duskblade would need to be Level 13 in order to do what is called Arcane Channeling to make a full attack with any touch spell that he/she knows or can cast, also they have what is called Quick Cast X times per day, which would allow a Lvl 13 Duskblade to quickcast Blade of Blood which last 1 round per level or until discharged, then he/she could make a full attack action with another touch spell like Shocking Grasp on all attacks, the Blade of Blood spell and the Shocking Grasp spell could both be used in conjunction with the full attack action per the Arcane Channeling and Quickcast in 1 round, therefore allowing both spells damage to be applied to all attacks (providing they all hit)in a round.

@Khell: If the mage had imp. unarmed strike (IUS), he or she would be considered armed even without a spiked gauntlet, so s/he could deal punch damage and spell damage at the same time and not trigger an AoO.

A spiked gauntlet on the other hand, is clearly a weapon in and of itself. You can't combine the spiked gauntlet damage with the spell. You'd need a gauntlet enchanted with spell storing to do that. I would, however, allow a mage who was wearing a spiked gauntlet to make a touch attack, dealing only the spell damage, while wearing a spiked gauntlet. But others would certainly disagree.

A plain gauntlet is a lot more confusing. It has a place on the weapons table, but it is in the same unique area as an unarmed strike, unlike the spiked gauntlet which is treated on the chart like any other weapon. All a gauntlet does is change the damage type of an unarmed strike from nonlethal to lethal. If you check its description, you will note that it doesn't make the attack armed, so punching with a gauntlet still provokes an AoO, just like punching with a fist. So it's kind of a weapon, and kind of not. For that reason, I'd go ahead and allow the spell to be discharged when punching with a gauntlet. It's actually a lot simpler that way, since all the damage (punch + spell) is of the same type (lethal). Such an attack would be a regular attack, tho, not a touch attack.

Hope this helps.

Yes it does thanks to all for clarity.

No, this is not correct. You can either touch with the spell, which is considered an armed attack and deals only the spell damgage. Or you can punch and discharge the spell, which does unarmed strike damage and the damage from the spell. This is not a touch attack, however, and is not an armed attack (unless you have imp. unarmed strike). If you look under the description for gauntlet you will see that it does not change an unarmed attack to an armed attack, it just changes the damage to lethal. Only imp. unarmed strike changes an unarmed strike to 'armed.'

Edit: Here's the reference, p186:

Alternatively,

you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with
a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case,
you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of
opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed
attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke
attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the
attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed
attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the
attack misses,

Ok i see where yo are referencing, so if a wizard has improved unarmed attack by taking the feat, then he/she could make the attack with a spiked guantlet as a normal attack and if he/she hits the target then both the guantlet damage and spell damage would take place normally.

Well, technically, you can't. Weilding a weapon, or touching anything discharges the spell, including a glove, gauntlet, or whatever. But, it probably will never be a problem to simply handwave that on by.

Per RAW: Pg. 185 PFRPG it states under the heading Touch Spells in Combat, subheading Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity.

So in theory a wizard who casts a touch spell while wearing a guantlet of certain types, could channel the magical energy of the spell through the item to deliver a touch attack with the spell and discharge it, dealing the unarmed damage of the guantlet damage and then the spell damage. without provoking attacks of opportunity.

I am curious to know how a touch spell that is delivered by a melee touch attack would work if a wizard wears either a spiked guantlet or by using a regular guantlet as part of the attack?

The posters have their answers already, and they have been pointed to the rules. SRK(developer) was kind enough to break things down for them.

Thanks Wraithstrike, i posted in response to Dork Lord's query.

Yes I know. But again I ask... where exactly is this concretely written in the RAW?

On page 218 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook it states under the heading Arcane Spells...Spell Slots: "A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels".

As per RAW each Metamagic feat description except Heighten uses higher level slots without changing the spell level.

So if you are a level 17 Wizard with a reduced Int. score of no less than 11 you still have access to all spell slots as per your level and can cast 1st level spells with or without Metamagic feats applied (Except Heighten). However, you as a Wizard would still need to memorize spells enhanced with Metamagic feats at spell preperation.