Kelgar Spellbeard's page

For clarrification.

The summon is as per "Natures Ally".

I am looking forward to peoples opinions on this! As if the creature doesn't share a language then the caster has no way to let the creature know anything or give it different commands such as stop attacking.

However it is still able to attack your enemies even without this information...

This is where the source of the creatures knowledge is important! as some of the situations mentioned could suddenly become game breaking...

Flite and Netopalis.

the Gem is as per Natures Ally, which by default attacks your enemies to the best of its abilities, however it states that if you can communicate with it you can issue other commands that over ride that base behaviour.

"If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions as you command."

Which was what the player was atempting to do.

As a homebrew game a confusing command could have worse results. But as discussed earlier in the thread anti pvp prevents these issues and limites the monster from attacking PC's.

However a poorly worded command could present a wasted turn while the creature gets conformation or it may simply attack the closes enemy that matches the description (Which is what happened in the end at the table in question).

There seems to be many different opinions on this topic so i think it is good that it is up for discussion!

But as stated personaly, in future in a similar situation at my tables after more research with time to look over things with a comb these creatures will attack the closest creature that is an enemy and matches the command while the creature may at the same time say "This one?"

Since you specified it was a new player, let me approach this from a different direction.

What would you have done if he had cast a fireball, and mistakenly chosen an origin point that included several players?

Most GM's I have seen would look at him and remind him that he needs to not do that because it could be pvp, and would he like to move his origin a bit to not hit them or pick a different spell. (Really nice gm's might suugest a different origin that would hit all the bad guys and miss the pcs.)

Similarly, you could look at him and say "that command could be interpreted in a way that could cause unintentional PVP. Do you want to make it more specific." If he genuinely doesn't have the knowledge he needs to frame a better command, maybe you should suggest "You need to give a command that won't result in PVP, why don't you tell the elemental to delay until you can move to see what is going on."

Well he is new ISH - he is still playing on a higher tiered table for a 5-9 scenario. so he has played at least 15 + Scenarios (If i remember he is lvl 6 so yeah 15)

So he has lost that new player edge of "I don't know what im doing help me" to "You need to start thinking about what your doing a little more" Zone.

Yeah, then I would definitely give the earth elemental a sense motive check (untrained it looks like) to guess who is on which side and pick the closest enemy by the stair if it succeeded.

Otherwise I would have the elemental say "Which one" (and hit a nearby enemy instead while it waits for the response if your table rules say the caster has to wait till his turn comes around again to answer.)

A good idea, however as also mentioned it aparently by default technicaly knows who are your enemies...

" The summoned ally appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. "

It knows this without even being able to communicate... I guess you could argue the sense motive would be to determin if it realized which creature the caster was talking about... but i think attacking the closest would be the most logical thing to do as well as prevent the combat from slowing down....

So, first of all, if it is a creature they can communicate with, then it is an intelligent creature.

With that in mind, I would first give it a wisdom check / sense motive check. If it figures it out, it knows who it is supposed to attack.

Now, if it is a demon or devil, it may still attack the wrong person. Either it won't bother to make the sense motive check, and will attack the most obviously good* person there under the excuse "just following orders master." Or it might just cast fireball at everyone on the stair "Wasn't sure which one you meant master, so I got them all!"

(*i.e. the guy wearing the Lawful good holy symbol, assuming it doesn't have time to get off a detect good)

An elemental, or other unaligned intelligent type will make the sense motive check, and if it fails will ask for clarification. Depending on how your table runs summons initiatives and free speech actions, this may delay it's ability to hit.

An angel would probably move up to the stairs, and then ask which one, unless one of the opponents was a demon or devil, in which case if it failed it's sense motive check, it might assume that obviously you called it there to attack the agent of hell.

The problem is Flite that while its a monster and i interprete commands given to it. It is still a tool under the control (for the most part) of the player.

As such any hostile action the creature takes against a PC could be interpreted as PVP. As stated the guide to organize play states.

"In short, you can never voluntarily use your character to kill another character—ever. Note that this does not apply to situations where your character is mind-controlled by an NPC and is
forced by that NPC to attack a fellow Pathfinder."

No mind controll involved.... no attacking the PC's.

At least thats how i would interprate that....

Kelgar, don't forget that they have to give the command in a language the elemental understands. I don't think elementals as a rule speak common, do they?

In the specific situation it was an earth elemental and the character spoke Terran....

So yes he could definatly communicate with it.

The problem is the player doesn't have a whole lot of experience yet, and while i don't want to "Punish" him for that he needs to have consiquences of his actions to learn from.

And as mentioned he was giving commands to attack a target he couldn't even see... adding the the elementals potential confusion.

After reading the summon spell

It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions as you command.

Also after rechecking the field guide the ONLY time PVP is allowed is due to mind controlling affects.

So while in a homebrew campaign i would definatly include allies as potential targets if the command were ambiguos (The spell does also state you can give it other commands which would in theory overide its base behaviour of attack enemies).

Summoning a creatre is not a mind controlling affect so i would rule that it could not attack a PC intentionaly or Unintentialy (unless it was controlled by a spell after the summoning).

I think that the concept of the "CLOSEST" enemy makes a lot of sense and if i have a similar situation in future I think i will rule that in a similar scenario it would attack the closest ENEMY that meets the critera (Weather that was the PC's intention or not).

Kind of a mix of the literal command, the creatures instinct, and anti PVP.

Thanks for the input!

Hey,
So based on a couple situations recently we have had people summoning creatures such as Elementals (Elemental Gem).

They then give them an ambiguous command such as "Attack the guy by the stairs". Without having line of site on any of the creatures near the stairs and there are multiple possible targets and the player is after a specific one...

Was wanting to get a feel for how litteraly commands should be taken for respect of what the player wants to achieve and what the elemental knows and asumes.

Would you rule that the elemental just knows which creature the caster is referring to?

Would you say a random die roll?

Or some other option, I also realize that the intelligence of the summond creature may also be a factor in this.

So i guess it depends on how litteraly you take a players command to a summond creature...