Ju-Mo.'s page

Dasrak just a quick question.

As far as I can see, all people told you that it is just too strong.
And that a Sorcerer doesnt really need to be unchained.
He has no real problems (neither to strong, nor to weak).

Ever point I read is like:
A: "Sorerer are fine, your idea is either unnecessary and/or vastly overpowered"
You: "No its not [with arguments]"
B: "Yes it is [also with arguments]"

If nearly all these experienced players have the same opinion, maybe they have a point?

I for one have the same opinion. The Sorcerer is fine.
And ALL of your changes make him stronger. I have seen a lot of Sorcerer in my time and not ONCE I thought "oh its weak, oh it needs a rework"
And non of my players have ever thought this.

Rouge, Barbarian, Summoner (fighter and a few others) were either in discussion or just got houserules to make them more fitting for us.
Some needed a few session to figure it out, some only needed a OneShot to see that maybe some changes wouldnt be so bad (Summoner with pounce...)

But never the Wizard, the Cleric or the Sorcerer. They just work.

Does anyone have any ideas of how to snap me out of this dumb mindset and allow me to finally enjoy the support types I love so much conceptually? Like, I have lots of fun when I trap a few enemies in a pit so they aren't a problem for a bit, And I love healing and buffing my allies... I just feel like I don't do enough...

Because its mostly a mind think, maybe some facts can help?

Or at least a story about facts.
Long long ago, at the beginning of our PF adventures one of my players played a bard. And like you he thought he didnt to enough, because he had only a few combat spells and mostly utility and fun spells and his crossbow didnt nearly deal as much DMG as the other party members.
So I made a fun little calculation and the result was astonishing.

With just his "Inspire Courage" he dealt more DMG than any other (including an old mix-maxed pounce Eidolon) party member.
How?
Well simple math, they were lvl 11 at the time, so its a simple +3 to hit and +3 to DMG.
Means every attack the fighter, the Eidolon etc 3 DMG were "his DMG"
If the eidolon hits with 3 of his 5 attacks and the fighter with 2 of his 3 attacks, 15 DMG were only dealt through the bard.

And every attack that uses the +3 to hit (fighter has a +20 to attack, rols a 5, so 25 total and the armor class of the monster is 27, so he doesnt hit UNLESS the bard sings which gives him another +3 for 28 total) is ONLY the bards DMG, because without him no DMG.

This simple calculation showed our bard, that he did by far the most DMG of the whole group. Indirectly ofc.
The player was saticfied and continued to play his bard until his bard found true love and retired with 3 children.

Just because you dont deal a lot of direct DMG, doesnt mean you contribute less in a fight.
Healing and keeping the party alive, singing as a bard, countering the enemies spells or just a stone wall to split the enmies are hugh contribution to a fight.
You wont see a direct result, that tricks your mind into thinking you did nothing good or you wasted your turn but thats wrong

If you play a healer, everytime someone doesnt go down because of your heal, so that he can get another full attack in, the whole DMG of his full attack are only possible because you healed him.
You could say its your DMG.

Maybe this helps.

And yes support charakters sometimes have turns where they to "nothing" like shoting with a crossbow. That sometimes feels a little bit underwhelming. There is no way around it.
Spritual weapon helps a little bit (you can still attack and deal a little bit of DMG) or a crossbow.
And you can always ready an action to shoot the caster the moment he wants to cast something. He could fail his concentration check, so why not try it.

Well I always thought of light like an area, which can be seen nearly indefinitely, if there is no obstacle.
And if the light source is further away you just take the light source as your point from which you calculate the distance that you can see.

If a torch illuminate an 20 foot area, anyone who can see the torch sees this area (if there are no further obstacles) in bright light.
Normal mali because of range still apply, but otherwise their is no reason to not see it.

If I stand 45 foot away from a torch (20 foot bright light, 20 foot dim light) I see everything very clearly, but the one holding the torch wont see me.

If you look at the real world, its the same.
If I sit in a dark room I wont see anything. If someone 50 foot away lights a torch, I wont see which colour my clothing has, but I will see what colour his clothing has. If he is further away it depens only on range how much and how good I can see him and his equipment, but as long as he is holding the torch, I dont have any problems with the light.

nope, you are reading into it and adding assumptions and requirements.

Not to be rude, but there are NO rules for observing a readied action.

At least non that I can think of.
So its ALL assumptions and GM-territory.

I´m on board with a sense motive check.
Perception would be, where is the creature, which weapon does it wield etc.
But what their intention are, is normally a sense motive check.

For the OP, there is no rule that tells you what will happen.
Overrun is a possibility (but would give Person C an attack of oppertunity unless A has improved overrun) and only works if C is no more than one size category larger than A.

If A doesnt wanna make an overrun maneuver, there is no rule for what will happen.
A GM can allow him to just stop (and wasting his whole turn), to target C with his charge attack (if he moved at least 10 feet) or even say well you moved a little bit, but you can stop before you hit C and even spend you sandard action as you see fit (if A moved less than his movement before his stopped).

For a GM-call I find it important to know, when did C interrupt A's Charge. Right at the start of the charge (before A moved his first 5 feet), nearly at the end of the charge (when A is only 10 feet away from B) or somewhere in the middle?

But as said, that purely GM territory and at least in my knowledge there are no rules for what happens if a charge action is interupted by an readied action.

NGL I argued this with her, but she argued she was dragon when the flesh was taken. However she's one of those players that reads all the alternative rules (especially the construct rules) and argued it was possible until I gave in. But I can't take it away from her at this point since its been a year IRL and kinda hard baked into the story at this point. We've also had a talk about her doing s*$* like this, and she has stopped, but its hard to deal with a character like this:
It does bother me however that she saw fit to add 25 HD to her character and add it to her caster level, and throw the dragon's stats onto her own.
Str 48
Dex 34
Con 26
Int 34
Wis 30
Cha 28
How she got these stats? She added the dragon's stats to her own. a young dragon, but still a dragon. She also gets a big buff from her wayfinder of the stars giving her a massive buff to everything (and we're talking like 28 ioun stones in the Wayfinder)
-...

Its your game, so as a GM you can let her be or change it.

And the reason: "Hey I ask in the forum and they told me you cant do that, so we need to sit down and make you charakter as the rules are written and intended" IS always a really good reason. Even years later.

And if a player reads a LOT of rules and makes such a grave mistake I would question it if it wasnt intentional.
There is NOTHING in any rules that I know of that even suggest that you can to what she did.
Even if i read "clon" totally wrong (on purpose or on accident) I would only get that stats of a young red dragon, with an INT of 12 thats not that impressive and only 11 HD really sucks for all my spells.

She just plain cheated. If you dont address it, its ok. As said its your game, but she cheated.
I would address it, I wouldn't call her out for cheating (normally cheater dont respond well if they are caught and I´m a peacefull person who avoids trouble if necassery).
However I would tell her, like I said above, that I got a better unterstading of the rules thanks to the forum and that what she did was sadly not RAW and not even RAI, so she cant do that and that we have to build her charakter new and stripping some of its power.

Stats are hardly ever baked into a story, only flavour is.
She can be looking like a dragon and having the BAB of a wizard and her normal stats. Changes nothing in the story just makes her weaker (and by weaker I mean in this case, it makes her normal and not overpowered strong).
Let her look like a young red dragon and even keep her fly speed (with her being large and a poor fly speed so -6 to fly, so she has to invest a lot of skill points to keep flying if you bring up wind or some other ideas mentioned above OR just cast overland flight and fly with the spell and not her wings)

If you want the encounter to be memorable and NOT discuss this problem of her totally misunterstanding the rules, just copy her.
Let the rouge be whatever you like (he found a scroll clone and a scroll polymorph, so the same spells she used) and just add some monster stats to his own (and the monster abilites).
You can make him really fast with a quickling and he would be small. So a lot of walls with only small openings and a town where the streets are too small for a large dragon to fly would be his way to stay out of her way.
Let his to fighter companions also be some young red dragons (in armor, cause they are fighter) who alos used this trick.

The problem is:
her charakter is MUCH stronger than she should be.
You have a level 16 Rouge (thats like a CR 16 Monster, give or take) and want him to be a challange for a better version of a anciant red dragon (CR 19).
And the anciant red dragon has "only"
STR 38 (she has 48, so -10)
DEX 8 (she has 34, so -26)
CON 27 (she has 26, so + 1)
INT 20 (she has 34, so -14)
WIS 21 (she has 30, so - 9)
CHA 20 (she has 28, so - 8)

That more like a CR 20 or even CR 21 creature.
You are asking how a non-magical CR 16 creature can fight a magical CR 21 creature.
Well the answear is, he cant.
Even with all the tricks, the difference is to huge.
Thats why cheating is called cheating and why nobody expect the cheater likes it.

You can only make it interesting if you handle her as a CR 21 creature, and give the rouge a boost. So make him CR/level 21 or 22 (22 cause she has minions [her party but for her thats just minions at this point]) Like 6 times the advanced template. So +24 to all his abiliy scores and +12 natural armor.
Or make him a rouge 20 and only +2 advanced template (+8 to all abiliy scores and +4 natural armor)
Or any other template (or combination of templates) that pushes him +6 on his CR.
Or let there be 8 or them (8 CR 16 creatures are one CR 22 creature, and with the way pathfiner works, 8 small creatures are not as much a thread as 1 big creaure in most cases)
Or make him a ghost.

I hope you see HOW much he has to gain (and how stupid that would be) so that the encoutner would be interesting/challanging.
Only with mundane items and a few environmental tricks (wind/buildings/suprise round etc.) you can never hope to achieve a +6 difference in CR.
+1 yes, maybe +2, everything else is not really possible in PF.

So you have like 3 choices:
1) Talk to her and make her charakter right.
2) Let her be and up your game (like 6 advanced templates etc)
3) Let her stomp the encounter and encourage her cheating.

Me I'm honestly thinking no, long life would be great but that long? I think eventually you would want an out as an option.

Its Pathfinder. There is always an "out" button. Just ask a god to help you die.

If a god wants you dead, you are dead. Thats the reason gods have no stats. In theorie they can always erase you. They wont to so, cause gods dont interfere directly in mortal matters.

If we take them out of the equation, and just ask if you wanna be immortal without Gods as an out button, why not. The last out button will always be the death of the universe.
And if I´m a level 20/10 charakter I can travel to all the places there are. Not only golarion, but the whole universe and if that gets boring, there are planes with infinite space for me to explore.

But my charakter would need a really good research topic (dimension of time) or a few project to oversee (like Baba Yaga in Irrisen) so that he has something to do until the universe dies.

Thanks for all the replies.

To add more context, I'm the DM for this campaign, and while we are playing mostly Pathfinder 1e rules, we are playing in the Warcraft universe using the old rpg books and some 3.5 things.

There's an item called healing belt that let's you heal (dur) others or yourself and one player asked if he could have 2 or 3 on top of each other so he doesn't need to equip a new one to use it and just has to remove the empty one. I said I didn't like this because it felt to me, like a really cheesy way to try to beat the action economy system, but it seems to be the RAW that he can do that.

Toshy wrote:

I remember to have read somewhere, that it doesn't depend on which you put on first, but which has the higher Caster Level.

So for example if you would wear a magic ring with CL 8, one with CL 5 and would put on an additional one with CL 10, the ring with CL 5 would stop working.
Bit it might be, that that was just something I read here or a houserule as I couldn't find an official rule like that right now.

I liked this idea though, be it a houserule or not.

All magic items should be revisited with the GM.

Their are too many ways to break the system (ring of true strike) if you use it 1:1 every time.

So if you feel like its to powerful, its not possible, or you just make it more pricy.
My wizard started to craft a LOT of effects on top of each other.
GM was ok with it, but after some time, I was like... well I think its too broken with just +50%.
So I proposed the idea that the first extra effect was +50%, the next two are +100%, the next three are +150% and so on. Also add a +5 for the craft check.

That way stacking became a lot harder and pricy over time.

On the other hand, an item that works only 1/day has his own formula to get to its price.
You craft the item like it works infinite times per day (Caster level x spell level x 2.000) and divide it by 5 (so /5). Now multiply it with the number of times you think it should be used per day.

So an item that can only be used once a day costs as much as an permanent item divided by 5.

RAW they sadly let a wording slip as far as I can see.

A wizard is allowed to write a 9th level spell (if they find a suficiant scroll or spell book) in his spell book.
And RAW it is written that he can cast one spell he has written into his spell book once a day without preparing it.

The only thing you can mention it, that its clearly the same as an arcane bond feature, so its not a Sp, its a normal spell.
Even the normal arcane bond is a Sp, but you cast the spell as a spell, not as a Sp. The Sp it that it allows you to cast this spell, but the spell is cast as a spell.
Doesnt change that much, just changes, that he needs to use material components (so no wish).

So you could say:
"Yes they made a mistake in the wording. They clearly ment it to be like the normal arcane bond, but thought that every inteligent being would know not to cast a 9th level spell at first level, so we play as RAI. You can only cast spells you can cast"

"RAW is RAW and the Nr 1 rule is, its my table, you cant a 9th level spell as a 1rst level PC, because thats RAI and I play it as RAI"

or

"Ok if you think its a good idea to let a first level PC cast one 9th level spell per day, we can to it. Just remember, your enemies can do that too." And their first encounter are three wizards with this archtyp and a lot of cool spells in their spellbook.
Like Cloudkill (for a VERY fast TPK) or Power Word: Kill, do just kill his PC or Imprisonment (so they need another 9th level spell (freedom) to get his PC back or energy drain (just a more fancy Power Word kill) or Meteor Swarm (to kill the whole town they where visiting).

All of the above with a much more polite wording please.

So much ideas. *evil grin*
He will be the first to scream "Unfair" if his PC dies to a Power Word kill in the first encounter. You than can say to him:" Well its only played as RAW, I wanted to play it RAI, but you insisted."

As said, nothing gets a player faster down to earth than using a loophole/oversight against them.
I only had to use that one time. I can't remember what exactly but it was like:" Well we could play like this, but I dont think you would want to play against that loophole. However if its legal, a few NPC will use it, why not its stronger than everything else."
After a very short thought he realised that I was right and he shouldnt abuse the loophole. It luckily never came up again.

The monk has super high perception and makes sure to thoroughly examine every room and hallway and door before the party approaches. With this AP being an ancient egypt-themed campaign and there being a lot of ancient tombs and such to explore, the party encountered a handful of traps already and is careful to not run into them unnecessarily.

Take into account, that that takes a lot of time. In a Dungeon, that can cost the player a few of their 1/min per lvl spells, if they take to long.

And magical traps can only disarmed by a rouge (some can also only be found by a rouge like spike growth), so even if they are found (like a magic missle that triggers if a doot is opened), they either take DMG, take some time to think of anohter method (which if the discussion is longer, should be tracked if they have some buffs on them), or use magic to solve the problem, like dispel magic, but that also chops away at their ressources.

Some Traps can be placed in a room with enemies (so no time to search for them).A pit trap 5 feet behind the door, in a room with some archers forces the monk/paladin to make the refelex save.
Or a small path without a trap, but pit trap left and right.
So that the monk/paladin can charge, but the wizard who wants to step into the room (and maybe make a side stap) triggers the trap.

The last tip likely won't be as useful. The bard and sorcerer have high knowledge skills and in our game group it's common to roll to identify the enemies and their abilities.

And with a single skeleton, I doubt a Cacophonous Call would be the first move. That would be the monk rushing in and knocking it to pieces.

Knowledge doenst help against class levels.

The best knowledge check doesnt help you to see if a creature in plate armor is a fighter, a barbarian or a paladin.
So they see a skelton in a robe, with a staff and a book on his belt.
Their knowledge check tells them, that it is most likely a wizard.
They know that its a skeleton/skeletal champion and his immunity to cold, his DR/bludgeoning and his spell resistance, but not more.

It doenst tell them which his specialized school is or which spells he has prepared, it also doenst tell them if he is a wizard, an arcanist or a which which disguises hemself as a wizard to protect his familiar.

Also knowledge checks are a lot harder than most people think.
10 + CR + 5 per additional information.
A normal skeletal champion has a 12 to know its a skeletal champion and an undead.
A 17 tells them that it has DR, a 22 tells them it has immunity cold, a 27 tells them that he has channel resistance +4, and a 32 tells them that he gets improved initiative as a bonus feat.

Thats a really high DC for a CR 2 Monster.

Its a valid tactic to disguise a cannon fudder as something special.
Wont work that good the second time in a row, but it will give them additional thinks to thing about. And if the paladin just rushes in an kills the skeleton in a single round, well who will ever know if it was a mage with low HP or a skeleton with normal HP?

Don't even need the drug, I planned to give him a spellcaster or two by his side anyway. Would make them useless too of course, but frankly, they're not doing much against the party anyway.

You can always make them wizard 5 and give them dispel magic and the feat dispel focus (bonus of +2 for dispel) and then let them target the equipment of the players.

Like their cloak of resistance, only takes the bonus away for 1W4 rounds, but thats still a minimum of 1 round. Same with belts and headbands.
And normally magic items have a rly low caster level.
Take the +3 away from the paladin, and than let him make a reflex save against a pit.
Much better chance that he fails it.

Same with armor/bracers of armor if you want them to get hit.

If they are bards you can give them Cacophonous Call, so that they can counterspell it if the SC bard wants to casts it.
No roll, if its the same spell you just counterspell it.
And a BBEG normally knows the typical tactic/spells of the party, so its totally reasonable that he wants to counters it the most simple way possible.
Shouldnt be used by every enemy, but most later BBEG have to means and ressources to pull that off.

Just three little things to add to the List of suggestions
1.) Troops
2.) Traps
3.) Deception/Description

1.) In my experience Troops can help a lot against high AC PC.
They are like swarms, but bigger and in my opinion especially Zombies and Skeletons are perfect for it.

They are immung against single traget spells (Cacophonous Call), they auto hit (like a swarms) and there is a chance that, if AoE Effects are used against them, the PC that are currently in a troop, get some DMG too. Ofc not the Monk, who has evasion, but the Paladin and the Summoner.

And there are a lot of Skeleton and Zombie variants.
Like the burning skeleton (which is immun agains fire (Fireball) and explodes when killed. Or the Plague Zombie, which can give the PC a nasty disease. Ofc Paladin and Monk are immune, but for the summoner it adds and extra layer of "i dont wanna stand near this Zombies"

Troops in fog or smoke, where the PC dont immediately see that it as a whole Troop or where they can surprise/ambush the backline.

2.) Your Party als dont have a rouge, so i guess no trapfinding.
I dont suggest some powerful traps, but some pits (10-20 feet deep only) to catch the Paladin before a fight (extra round or two to get out, deppending on their climb skill) can make for a much harder battlefield.

As others have commented: Splitting the Party (via Stonewall for example) can have much greater use than one anticipated at first.

Even a pittrap, that doenst catch anyone in the Party, can split the Party up and is an obstacle which can get in the way (charging, coming to aid, flanking). Everything gets harder for the PCs.

Some Pittraps, that arent in the direct path, but on the sidelines could also possible catch the backline. If the frontline just uses the straight path in a room to get to the next door, they dont trigger the pittrap in the corner, from which the Party advances.

If a fight breaks out and the cleric wants to move a little but (for safety reasons, so that him, the sorcerer and the bard arent all in on place for an enemies fireball), he triggers the trap and normally it takes some time for a cleric to get out of a pittrap.
Medium Armor, not the greatest strength, not enough skillpoints to invest a lot in climb and a DC of 20 or 25 to climb out of it.
A 20 feet deep Pittrap and a cleric with 30 feet movement, which only counts as 30/4 if he climbs, so 7,5 feet, takes 3 actions to get out of it. If he fails it takes more time. Every action used to help him from the bard is an action not used to kill your minions.

There are also other rly nice traps, which dont have a high CR, but are annoying, like doors who lock themselve a few seconds after opening them (so the fronline can pass, and the backline stand before a closed door), traps that make smoke, snare traps, spring loaded panel traps (to throw the backline into the trontline, or the frontline back).
A lot of traps have not so great DCs so i would recommend traps that are useful even if completly evaded, like pittraps, or huge falling stones (which after they fall down, can block line of sight and line of effect)

3.) I dont rly know how good you can use that one. If you start describing your minions more colourful, your PCs might use some resources for a single HD 1 Skelton.

Let it stand behind two chests on the otherside of an otherwise empty room, with a robe on, a book and his belt and a wooden staff in his Hand. Describe the torches behind his back flickering when the PC are entering.

If the PC entcounterd (or heard) of mimics before, maybe the will even use some attack on the chests, if not in the next room, the chair in the corner is a mimic who falls the bard in the back, once the fight breaks out.

Let them roll Initiative and see how they react if they win, will they cast haste, or Cacophonous Call? If yes, they wasted a Spell for a different dressed HD 1 Skeleton. (Not that they have to every know this)

This also works in the opposite direction. A boss monster (or miniboss monster) can try to blend in the crowd of his minions. You dont always have to know immidiately which enemy is the strongest and the most fearsome one.