Personally, I love the conceptual empowerment of the OP's idea and think it raises interesting questions about intent versus optimization. However, I think that there are some assumptions to making this work that are not necessarily granted given the writing of the spell itself. I think that before we discuss house rules and errata for this spell, there's a crucial aspect to be discussed that was originally mentioned by a previous poster and that leaves the power of the spell firmly in the hands of the GM.
The original post is predicated on the idea that the caster drops small objects and then uses mythic feather fall to weaponize them.
Now, we could debate the semantics of the following line in the mythic spell description.
"the spell absorbs the targets' velocity and transforms it into a concussive blast."
Webster's first definition of velocity is "quickness of motion." This would mean that if the pebbles were dropped at the last moment, or from a non-consequential height, their velocity would thus be non-consequential for the spell's absorption.
HOWEVER, that is PURELY conjecture and runs into the problem of real world versus game world physics, which has already been enumerated. I bring it up simply to show that there is room to view alternate intent in the description as opposed to simple developer oversight.
But HERE is the real crux.
What does it mean to drop an item?
It's a free action correct?
Yes.
BUT, as written, the core rulebook says
"Drop an Item
Dropping AN [emphasis mine] item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action."
Why would the caster get to drop more than one?
Well, that would require us go to the rules for free actions.
Again, Core Rulebook
"Free actions don't take any time at all, **though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn**."
Dropping AN item is a free action, so dropping more than one item already requires the use of multiple free actions and just like speaking in combat is a free action, but reciting all of Hamlet would likely not fit the Free Action description of "don't take any time at all" the rules as they exist already require some at-the-table adjudication for situations like these.
Moreover the rules for dropping an item say that you can drop it into your space or an adjacent space as a free action. So, even if we were to allow up to NINE free actions (which, as a GM I'd be not inclined to do) to account for the caster's own space and the eight adjacent squares for a medium creature that caps the ability unless we start adding enlarge person to give you more space or more reach, or Lunge, etc etc.
All of these, to me, divert from the original point: conceptually, this idea is AWESOME, it is imaginative and I love the OP's work in calculating massive damage from it.
However, the entire premise is based off the idea that they are allowed to make multiple free actions in the same turn in a manner that the description of Dropping an Item, and the definition of Free Actions do not unequivocally support as presented.
I agree that the language of the spell could use polish and clarification, but I disagree that it opens itself up to the loophole and "abuse" calculated. The existing framework for dropping items and using free actions seems capable of handling the situation without houserules or errata in my opinion.
Hey all
I want to cannibalize a good encounter for my home game. Any suggestions? Level is not a factor as I'm really just looking for something interesting like terrain feature or mechanic that will stick out.
We once played a PFS scenario (I forget the name) where we fought on a giant pipe organ, and in a grain silo, etc. I'm looking for things like that which would be memorable.
Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.
Cheers
-JB
For me this prestige class
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d
Was the best approximation of a Jedi that I'd ever seen.
If someone were to port this over to Pathfinder with the existing psionic rules that would work for me.
Alternately, if psionics aren't used I would say a magus kensai works pretty well, but a fighter/sorcerer/Eldritch knight also works well especially because the spontaneous casting makes a better comparison to unlimited Force use than prepared casting.
Some nice builds everyone, by the way.
Cheers!
Thanks for both the competition and then the nice feedback Dave. It was really great to contribute. Can't wait to see what "Holmes and Marlowe" get into in the next installment.
I statted up my take on Varian and Radovan in the beginning of Queen of Thorns. I'll put the explanation under a tag as there might be spoilers there.
Count Varian Jeggare (Beginning of Queen of Thorns) CR 11
XP 12,800
Monk 3/wizard 9
NG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +16
Defense
AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge, +3 Wis)
hp 52 (12 HD; 3d8+9d6)
Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments+2 vs. enchantment,
Defensive Abilities evasion
Offense
Speed 30 ft. 40ft with light or no load
Melee +1 rapier +10/+5 (1d6+2/18–20)
Unarmed Strike +9/+4
Special Attacks flurry of blows, hand of the apprentice (8/day), metamagic mastery (1/day), stunning fist (5/day, DC 19)
Statistics
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 16, Cha 12
Base Atk +6; CMB +8; CMD 24
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Martial Weapon Proficiency(B), Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Stunning Fist, Vital Strike, Weapon Finesse, Feint Partner
Skills Acrobatics +7, Appraise +10, Bluff +6, Climb +6, Craft (calligraphy) +10, Diplomacy +10, Fly +11, Handle Animal +6, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +9, Knowledge (history) +12, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (nature) +17, Knowledge (nobility) +13, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +16, Perform (dance) +5, Ride +9, Sense Motive +16, Stealth +8, Swim +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Azlanti, Elven, Minkaian, Taldane, Tien, Varisian
SQ ancestral arms, fast movement, maneuver training, still mind, familiar (Arnissant), elf blood, Traits: Classically Schooled, Rich Parents
Radovan Virholt (beginning of Queen of Thorns) CR 11
XP 12,800
Hellspawn fighter (unbreakable) 1/monk 5/rogue 6
CG Medium outsider (native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +15
Defense
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+1 Dex, +1 monk, +2 Wis)
hp 90 (12 HD; 1d10+5d8+6d8+36)
Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +8; +2 vs. enchantment,
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge; Immune disease; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
Offense
Speed 30 ft.+10feet with light or no load
Melee +1 kukri (“The Big Knife”) +12/+7 (1d4+4/18–20), bite +11 (1d6+3), unarmed strike +11/+6 (1d10+3)
Ranged mwk dart +10/+5 (1d4+3)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, sneak attack +3d6, stunning fist (6/day, DC 18)
Statistics
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +8; CMB +13 (+15 grapple); CMD 25 (27 vs. grapple,)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Diehard(B), Endurance(B), Feint Partner Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Legacy, Quick Draw, Stunning Fist
Skills Acrobatics +9 (+14 when jumping), Bluff +12, Climb +11, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +12, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +5, Perception +15, Ride +5, Sense Motive +13, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +16, Survival +6, Swim +7
Racial Modifiers Acrobatics (+5 when jumping), +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
Languages Taldane, Varisian, (Tien and Elven in progress)
SQ fast movement, maneuver training, still mind, ki pool (4 points, magic), slow fall 20 ft., high jump, purity of body, rogue talents (charmer, follow clues, offensive defense), trapfinding +3
Traits: Ever Wary, Reactionary
:
I struggled with Varian, but found a reference to him in Inner Sea Magic that listed him as 6th level Wizard, while also detailing the methods of creating the riffle scrolls. However there was some difficulty making him a swordsman like his history suggested without any levels other than Wizard. However, by substituting in the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait and paring it with Weapon Finesse and Combat Expertise, I felt that even a Wizard would be a capable combatant.
I then figured that the travel through Minkai to Tian Xia would count for another level, and then for the time at Dragon Temple I felt that giving both Varian and Radovan 5 levels in that year's worth of time was plausible. I only gave Varian 3 levels of Monk because I felt at some point his teachings with Jade Tiger and his discovery of his calligraphy-based magic allowed him to repurpose his studies back to Wizard levels. I didn't spend much time on gear, since I feel that Dave's characters are more about what they are than what they have, and that even the most specific items like Radovan's Jacket or the Shadowless Sword are more important for their history and relation to the character than they are for their stats as items.
I made sure that Varian had one rank in EVERY Knowledge skill so that there was always a chance he'd know or remember something about anything, but made sure that Arcana and Nature were highest in keeping with both his Wizards studies and his writings on nature and his greenhouse.
I can't say that there's a lot of textual basis for the Feint Partner feat but I wanted the boys to have a teamwork feat and that one seemed very much beneficial to them both. Additionally, I feel that Varian's being described as an almost duelist's fighting style, the ability to Feint against his opponents in combat was fitting. Also, with only two iterative attacks and a bevvy of spells, I felt that Vital Strike would be an homage to him fighting with precision and intelligence more so than brute strength.
For Radovan, I started with the Big Knife. It didn't feel like a short sword, which meant using a feat or multi-classing. I preferred the latter since the Unbreakable fighter archetype gave endurance and die hard as bonus feats and seemed fitting with his life among the goatherds. As a tiefling, I found the Maw or Claw alternate racial trait a good one to have since I've never seen Radovan use spells. This gave him the Big Grin, and laid a foundation for his sturdiness as well as his affinity for all kinds of weapons. I made sure to give him Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple (BEFORE he would have had Monk levels) because Radovan clearly knows how to fight up close even before Prince of Wolves. I picked Rogue Talents that would not only highlight his ability to charm people, but also his detective-like skills.
When approaching Master of Devils, it's clear that Radovan learns a lot of monk stuff with Burning Cloud Devil. I pretty much went straigh monk levels, but I picked the Monastic Legacy feat because I felt it would echo the idea of the potential that Burning Cloud Devil saw in him, such that when Radovan reached a certain point in his training, his unarmed abilities took off and would actually exceed his monk level.
I KNOW I'm forgetting something but...I'm sure It'll come to me later. Best of luck all!
Okay, just finished Queen of Thorns.
I not only like it the most of the three on its own, but I love what it does as part of the evolving character arc for Varian and Radovan.
More thoughts below the spoiler line. WARNING: NO PUNCHES PULLED THIS IS SPOILER TASTIC!
click here:
I forget who coined the adage: "don't put a gun in the first act that
isn't going to go off in the third act" but one of my favorite elements of this story was the numerous subtle internal callbacks that reward readers.
Chief among them--in my opinion--is Radovan's heritage.
I love that in Prince of Wolves we find out about the nobility
inherent in his heritage. There are even a few moments of tension--if
I remember correctly--in Master of Devils or the intervening short
fiction about the fact that Radovan resents that he doesn't get equal
standing to the boss despite being the "damn prince of wolves."
As readers I felt like we previously saw Radovan's heritage as a sort of
rounding-out of his character while the devil side of him seemed like
part of his more recent history.
In Master of Devils the infernal aspect of Radovan's lineage became
front and center, but mostly due to the mechanics of his infernal
transformation. Any thoughts I had about a greater purpose
to his devil-side was subsumed by his predicament in the second book, thus still making it important but sort of distracting us as readers with Radovan's ordeal under Burning Cloud Devil.
At the end of Master of Devils I liked that Radovan had lost that part
of him, but is seemed a little neat, making me wonder if there was
more to come.
What was so engaging, for me, in Queen of Thorns was that it merged
the two previous elements of its predecessors. Radovan's nobility
became just as crucial as his infernal lineage in a way I had never
anticipated. It went back and imbued the events in Prince of Wolves
with more significance, something that I love for whenever I read a series.
Also, unlike a comic book series that goes off the rails (alternate
universe after alternate universe, characters that die and come back
over and over, clones), the reveal of Radovan's role as the Infernal
AND Abyssal gate means that the Devil part of him is not only
ever-present, but can change depending on the possessing devil without
feeling like a trite and hackneyed re-hash of what's been done before.
Dave Gross has managed to preserved the dynamic of Redovan's infernal side while introducing a way for it to constantly renew itself.
Watching that develop over the last three books has been excellent, and Queen of Thorns is the payout.
Where Varian is concerned I've enjoyed the sort of downgrading he's
had from his more noble roots in Prince of Wolves. His promotion of
Radovan to friend and then "brother" is really great character
development in my opinion, and I like the fact that we watch his
personal relationships evolve from those of manners and etiquette to
those of true depth and resourceful cooperation. I felt that the
Varian of Prince of Wolves was more self-reliant because he was
embroiled in his own skill set, whereas in his conversations with
Zaldanavox we see him drawing on skills he himself likens to Radovan's
charms rather than his own highborn courtesies. I also like the way
we have seen over the total three books his own arcane pursuits become enhanced by his greater worldly adventures.
His discovery of the riffle scrolls was his own design, but his incorporation of the calligraphy into his spellcasting in Dragon Temple grew out of the menial indignities that in other circumstances he might never have been exposed to.
The fact that Varian's own diplomatic tangle with the dragon gets
summed up by Radovan as "just keep her happy," really underscores that
the two of them are finding themselves in each others roles more and
more.
Stepping outside of the writing to the work's interaction with the Pathfinder Game, I love that there are subtle payouts for the readers that are also heavy gamers.
I think Zuldanavox is a great example. As a green dragon, informed gamers know that they're lawful evil. Dave Gross doesn't need to find a way to translate that from "gamespeak" into "bookspeak."
In fact, I felt that by having Radovan say in the earlier part of the book that the difference between a demon and devil is that "you can make a deal with a devil," we not only get foreshadowing of his later
compact with Hell, but we as readers are also getting a prescient description of the relationship Kyonin must ultimately have with the Queen of Thorns.
Again: Gun, first act. Third act, boom.
I also think that one of the ways the story transcends typical
shared-world fiction is that the main characters don't feel steeped in
any single alignment.
The prince was treacherous, but because he believed he knew best for
Kyonin. Caladrel was not evil, or sociopathic, he simply chose the
wrong side and was willing to betray others for that belief. The fact
that even Zuldanavox is open to diplomacy for the common good of
solving the Witchbole Problem reinforces that the characters have more
complex motivations than "what would Chaotic Eeeeeeeevil do?"
And on a purely visceral moment of enjoyment: the moment where Varian undoes the riffle scroll to cast (I'm assuming True Strike) to split Caladrel's arrow before it hits Variel was AWESOME.
I saw it in my head almost like when Li Mu Bai deflects the hundred darts in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
But even in just enjoying the action-packed moments the book really grabbed me. I was enjoying a slow and digestive read up until the battle in the City of Thorns began in earnest.
Then I couldn't put it down.
All in all I loved the book on its own and as part of the whole. I'd love to know what others thought/think.
Cheers
-JDB
Bardez, The casting time of Bladed Dash is Standard, not full round or 1 round. So it 'uses' your standard action... or in your case, your off-hand spell casting which can be made first in spell combat thus allowing you to close in for the full attack with but a 2nd level spell.
Go crazy my friend.
That was my interpretation, but the GM was saying that it also used my movement, so spell combat was negated. I wanted a sanity check there.
James Jacobs would be the final arbiter, but the spell was conceived to allow you to have the movement you travel with the spell be PART of the standard action of casting it. Thus, you could use your move action to get into position to line up a target or targets in the case of greater bladed dash, or as Bardez noted, it allows you to cast the spell as part of spell combat, move to your target and attack them and still leave the magus with the rest of his or her full attack.
Uhhhh...yeah. "What Clark, Matt, Joel, Jason, Josh and Scott said!"
Seriously, just entering RPG superstar can be your first step to design and development, where failure and feedback can be more valuable than a lucky break into a subsequent round.
Best of luck to all entrants and I look forward to the deep and profound brain things inside my head that will be nourished by everyone's ideas and contributions.
ONWARD!
As a lover of old kung fu and martial arts flicks, I'm really impressed with Pathfinder martial arts. I was doubtful a company could produce a martial arts system for D&D that was both mechanically viable and conceptually intersting. Pathfinder pulled it off.
Maddigan, sorry for the late response (hey just three months behind) but it's really great of you to take the time to say what you said. I know the developers worked hard to emulate the feel of old kung fu movies while being true to real life styles, and people recognizing that is a big pay-off for them, I'm sure.
I didn't have time to plow through what everyone else has said so far, but if it hasn't been suggested, tiger/monkey goes really well together, especially since the power attack/a.c. trade of tiger pounce works REALLY well once you've used monkey to get into someone's space. You've minimized the a.c. penalties and have a better chance to deal that sweet sweet extra damage!
-J
Wow!
My good friend DJCherryPie told me there was buzz on the Phoenix. Sweet merciful crap I hope I don't disappoint and I can't wait to see how everyone else's sections turned out. It really was a great project to work on...
Novalord, Jester...
Mad love for you both.
Thanks for the kind words, they are appreciated and I'm glad you and your Pathfinders had a good time and--hopefully--survived.
-JB
I'm really looking forward to this both on a mechanics and a role-playing level.
It feels like we all just got "spell-legos."
I think this comes very close to approximating the literary and mythological archetype of spellcasters who build magic from diverse components on the fly, rather then relying on specific, pre-formulated techniques. I think that both are valid, much like the way an orchestra plays a composer's specific piece while a jam band makes it up from the same notes and measures.
I cannot wait to get my hands on this book.
I love the ambiance of this adventure, and the choice to incorporate the chidrens' rhyme into the plot gives it a level of creepy that stands to last for a long time.
I want to run this adventure...right now.
Make it so...I COMMAND IT!
Cody,
Late congrats on being in the Top 4.
While I agree with many of the judges and the feedback you've gotten from the community, I also agree with Dean/The Minstrel Wyrm in that you swung for the fences here.
I think there are some good ideas and that you could harvest them for material that is more level appropriate.
If you choose to use this in your own campaign/or it gets later publication, you might consider opening the rift to Venlor into the other small town and giving the lower level PCS a chance to explore a pocket of the shadowed city as it bleeds over into Golarion, rather than having the entire city appear. That would allow the ne'er to be the BBEG for 4th level characters and then, perhaps, the PCs could begin tracking these rifts across Golarion, opening up the possibility for more of the cultural interaction and location showcasing that James eluded to in the judges' feedback.
Regardless of the total outcome of RPG superstar 2011, you're final four and that don't happen by accident.
Best of luck.
Qui-gon Jesse
Eric,
I think that while Sean's math-based critique is right on, the rules component of those concepts can be tweaked to restore balance. For me your abilities hit at the flavor of what we want knife fighters to be. I like that you put in both melee and ranged applicable components as well so that all iconic stabby guys are represented.
One thing not mentioned here that I wasn't keen on was the bonus given to sunder checks.
Disarm I get and agree with, but sunder doesn't seem all that viable for a weapon of a dagger's damage output.
Historically speaking there were many off hand weapons like scissors katars and main-gauches that excelled at breaking weapons but I don't know that the game mechanics would make using a dagger for sundering a truly viable choice.
Personally, I'd recommend changing it to a bonus to dirty trick or steal combat maneuvers as I could see someone who excelled at in-close fighting using their blade to cut the skin over an opponent's eyebrow so that blood dripped down to blind their enemy, or that could cut the bottom out of a coin purse or spell component bag in the middle of combat with a deft twist of the wrist.
Just my thoughts.
Again, I think the mechanical critiques are valid, but you nailed the iconic essence of a knife fighter.
You have one of my votes this round and best of luck.
James,I really like this and congrats on making it into Superstar-country again.
What I really really like about this one is the unspoken reason for its creation.
I'm hesitant to use poison as a player because there's almost always that chance to self poison, but that antidote that gives you a +10 bonus seems born out of someone that had been bitten by his creations one too many times.
I love items that have a backstory that is not just engaging but practical.
Best of luck.
-QGJ
Congrats Eric and welcome back.
I really love the flavor of this item and cinematic coolness in an item can't be overrated.
I could see an NPC villain using this on my PCs and them both admiring him and hating him for having this.
That's a win-win for me.
Neil and Mark are right in the sense that there are some situations that need to have some clarification but I also agree with those that have said that they prefer the falcon to be unstatted.
Best of luck and I look forward to your archetype.
-QGJ
The bit about swift actions is worthy of a second look, because that is going to differentiate whether you’re replenishing your pool, or powering an ability. Because you won’t be drawing the ki and using a ki ability in the same round. Only one swift action per round.
Jim, nice catch. I thought the same thing.
Additionally, in future rounds (cause I'm rooting for you) I'd suggest putting the game mechanic rules at the beginning of a sentence. A wise man told me that people will sometimes stop reading in the middle of things and you don't want to lose them.
Example: A Ki point can be drawn from the beads at a later time for immediate use as a swift action.
You might consider rewriting as. The bearer can use a swift action to draw a Ki point from the beads any time after their meditation is complete.
Just my thoughts. I really like the flavor of this item and its crispity firey monk-ey goodness.
Yep. That's the biggest hurdle here. It's often going to be easier for our staff and our freelancers to make up their own new content than to "fix" somebody else's stuff that's not quite right.
Vic, that's a very fair point. Is there, however, any possibility of the previous contestants rehabilitating their items and monsters to save your staff the work? I know that I personally would do it pro-bono just to have a paizo credit to my name.
I think this is a great list so far.
In many ways, I'm a martial arts purist, and while there are a lot of styles with very vast techniques and rich histories, I just don't know that the d20 system--or any RPG system in that case--is set up to accommodate all of the nuances that distinguish them from each other in real life.
We may want to lump many of them together for their mutual commonalities and then use a new name to identify them as they would most likely not be called "Kung Fu" or Shorin Ryu in Golarion or any other fantasy setting...
For example, Judo, Sambo and Aikido would probably get grouped into the same "throwing" martial art, just like wing Chun Kung Fu, Krav Maga and Jiu-jitsu might be a martial art to emphasize close, locked body manipulating combat.
Any ideas on how we could group the existing suggestions into common sets so that we could examine where to go from there?
I can't see why not. Nothing in Vital Strike states that it has to be a melee attack which means that a ranged weapon can be used with Vital Strike, and pinpoint targeting's requirement of a standard action for its use makes this a VERY nice combination.
I do remember in the play test versions of Pathfinder where there was something that said only one combat feat could be used in a round, but I couldn't find that in the OGC website.
If that rule is still on the books that would negate this combo.
But, man, is it a NICE combo.
Cheers...
QGJ
I agree with Dazylar and share his assessment of the class in my first read through. I think that conceptually, Spellstrike and Spell Combat are right on the money and with a little more clarity in the language they'll be a really enjoyable ability to use in sessions.
One thing that I don't quite get, and was hoping that Erik, Wes--any of the developers, really--might weigh in on is why Use Magic Device is a class skill.
I can see it from a practical standpoint since it's a great skill to expand a limited spell base. With the requisite high intelligence magi might have the skill points to spend, but needing to specialize in both combat and Intelligence-based magic suggests that Charisma will be a dump stat for most magi. Regardless of the ranks they might buy it seems like it will always be tough to make important checks with that skill.
Still, I'm looking forward to playing this class very much.
PROOFREADING NOTES:
Under Hasted Assault: The last sentence reads "THAT magus must be at least 9th level..." All other similar wording reads "THE magus must be at least..." [emphasis mine]
Under Arcane Weapon: 5th sentence down, starting with "These bonuses..." the sentence reads "can be used be used [sic] to add any of the following weapon properties..."
Didn't know if that would help or not.
-QGJ
Scotchrocket, I like the idea a lot and a lot of the subsequent adds people have made.
It reminds me of the Abj Champion's Arcane Boost ability, which I liked a lot too.
The idea of burning magic to power combat seems integral to most wish lists for this class.
That said, someone had suggested earlier on that giving Magi a larger spell list, but giving them only a few schools to pick from would add variety and increase playability.
If we tied the kinds of bonuses you could get to the schools that the magus picked for their spells, that would also create something akin to "orders" of magi.
"The Magi of the All-seeing Eye choose Evocation, Divination and Abjuration as their three schools," etc etc
That might open the door to accommodating a LOT of people's wants and concerns.
That build takes about 8 levels before he becomes survivable on the front line. Since that is 2/3 of the typical campaign, that is an issue.
Caineach,
first thanks for weighing in, I appreciate your thoughts.
I'm not trying to be argumentative but, what does "survivable on the front line" mean? It seems like that's the GM's decision/responsibility to make adventures that are correctly proportioned to the players, and I really am against the notion of a "typical campaign" since I've never had a typical experience that was duplicated from one campaign to the next. That said, however, the question of the hardiness of the build is fair. But, just on the math alone, the magus will have, on average, only 1 extra hp per level than a wizard or sorcerer, so that means that they're only barely more "survivable" than the wizard or sorcerer. Plus, if a character using the EK build above were to front end load the two levels of fighter, those d10 average h.p. make up the difference between the d6 vs d8 for the remaining levels of magus, and when the EK takes over, the h.p. quickly exceeds that proposed for the magus.
I've always been told that the most powerful class feature to have in a given level was a full caster level. While the EK build I proposed certainly has drawbacks, I feel like it still ends up with more spells and a higher BAB than what is proposed for the Magus.
My worry is that the magus becomes something that people play for the class features, and not because it accomplishes the stated objective of a viable synthesis of magic and combat.
If that's the case, then maybe the magus concept works better as an archetype of wizard or sorcerer or even as a collection of feats.
That was the rationale I heard Jason Buhlman give at Paizocon for not bringing the archmage over from 3.5 D&D: the same powers of the prestige class could be garnered from the feats and archetypes in the APG.
I think the real question may become: Is there a way to make a +1/level BAB and +1/lvl caster base class that will still leave room for people to want to play fighters, wizards, sorcerers and Eldritch Knights, respectively?
I think it can be done, but I don't think the current specs for the magus are going to do it.
I apologize if this has already been said somewhere in the hundreds of posts but...
Someone needs to tell me why a 20th level character with 6th level arcane spells and a +15 BAB beats the following:
Wizard 8/Fighter 2/Eldritch Knight 10.
+16 BAB, 9th level spells if wizard is the arcane class. You also have 7 bonus feats, two tiers of specialist powers as a wizard, bravery and spell critical by 16th level.
Why would you play the magus?
It seems to me that this combo already gives people the majority of what they're asking for, more so than what we know now of the magus.
Additionally, we don't know everything there is to know about the APG at this point. There are over 100 feats and archetypes that'll be available and there's nothing saying that weapon channeling, armored casting or any of the tra"gish"ional wish list items won't be doable through this upcoming material.
Again, I love the idea of the magus, and I want to see it succeed, but someone needs to tell me what we know at present that makes it a more powerful or viable option than what is already available in the system.
-QGJ
I say go monk, strait monk, for several reasons, one of which I think we haven't discussed enough: role-play
A monk would be a great foil for a wizard. Most monks will have a high wisdom, and while Wizards aren't precluded from having a high wisdom, they're obviously big on intelligence. I can imagine such characters having totally different perspectives on things that would be almost like a Watson and Holmes dynamic. This could be expanded based on the Monk's need to be lawful as well since the wizard could also be opposed on the law/chaos access as well.
In mechanics terms too, I think Monk is a strong choice.
-Good odds for a high initiative
-Always has a weapon drawn
-Can attack during a grapple and be just as effective out of one
-Evasion, great saves and spell resistance allow the wizard to actually blanket foes with area effect spells while the monk can possibly stay out of harm's way
-Stunning fist and a high mobility allows the monk to stun an opponent and get out of the way of the wizard's blast spells in the same round.
-Against opposing spell-casters, Monk's have my FAVORITE attack: ready dimension door for when the caster casts. What wizard cast's defensively when their opponent is far away? If you dimension door as they cast, you show up next to them as they're casting and they provoke. You stand a good chance of interrupting their spell from either damage or stunning fist.
I think there were a lot of good suggestions, but I think that Monk goes REALLY well.
-QGJ
Echoing Charles Evans, I apologize if others have said this.
I think it's hard to pick a fitting one-word term without knowing what the actual elements of the class might be.
Even if Witch or Warlock were used (and I like them both) then you automatically have to battle the conceptions that a generally fantasy-versed readership already has when they hear those words.
Maybe we should look at the nature of the person who would be such a blend of sword and magic and not just the class features.
While we can argue whether a Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10 is under powered versus the sum of its parts, stepping away from the mechanics of the game...this is a character who has managed to achieve ALMOST as much power as the greatest non-epic fighters and the most powerful of wizards in the same amount of "time" (meaning levels) as straight classes.
What is that person like?
I think that someone like that doesn't just fall into such an undertaking. They have to choose this pursuit, and the sum of their power is meant to represent the entire spectrum of possibility since most fantasy sets up sword and sorcery as opposites.
I would examine roots of words that involve purpose, destiny, greatness, and anything epic.
What about
-An Unbound
-A Limitless
-An Imminent
I have the bestiary as PDF, and can bring my lap-top to the session to share with others if that helps.
Excitement...that can be arranged!
Looking forward to it.
My Solar-Jedi-Gish-Arcane gamer prestige beast is READY!
I'd love to play a Solar...
Too much?
Fine then...I can accommodate.
Astral Deva is all I require.
No, I agree with Laughing Goblin.
10-12 is my sweet spot for pick-up games as well. You can usually take a little bit of a beating and have some cool class abilities by then.
Curiagh,
Apart from stating our level preferences, is there anything that we can do as the players to help you out?
QGJ
If there was interest, I'd be willing to GM the 1:00pm-6:00pm slot on Friday with an adventure I've been working on.
Would be 4-6 players max, level 12, 3.5 rules. we can do Pathfinder or pre-pathfinder rules, either will work.
If anyone is interested, let me know.
FYI, I'm flying in to WA early Friday morning, and expect to be to the hotel around noonish, but this time might have to be a little flexible should there be any travel delays.
Cheers
-QGJ
I really like the idea.
I'd use them for silent and still metamagic effects. These would be a great "oh @#$%" item for a caster to get out of a nasty grapple, or iron bands of billaro or something similar without needing a rarely used metamagic rod or feat.
I also love the presentation of the mechanic with evocative imagery.
Nicely done, Maugan
-QGJ
I think that there have been a lot of good points here.
I personally think that the rules as they are written are clear and that because metamagic rods do not modify the level of the spell slot they effectively are not higher level spells. I think that a strict interpretation of the rules would let me use a metamagic rod of maximize spell to put a maximized lightning bolt into my +1 longsword of spell-storing.
That said, the question here is really about balance. On that level, I agree with Jason, and think that using the metamagic rod to put a modified spell into a spell-storing weapon makes a metamagic rod more powerful than initially planned to be.
Since the spell can sit in the weapon indefinitely, it means that I can use one of my 3 daily uses of the metamagic rod, have the benefit sit in the weapon and then at dawn have all three uses again, as well as the one still in the weapon.
It works four times for me now!
This is the heart of the issue that I think needs to be addressed because I can use a metamagic rod of empowerment on shocking grasp and still not exceed the 3rd level cap of a spell-storing weapon right now without running afoul of the rules.
My suggestion would be to allow the use of metamagic rods on spells put into spell-storing items. However, while a spell altered by a metamagic rod is IN the spell-storing weapon, the maximum daily uses of the metamagic rod should be depleted by one.
Probably more complex than necessary, but that's my 2 cents.
-QGJ
I'm gonna go in a different direction, although I really do like a lot of the suggestions.
I would put them on the fringe of the Hold of Belzken. I think that history would show (although certainly not exclusively, please don't assume that I'm speaking in absolutes) that areas of intense conflict also breed pockets of strong resistance. I can envision small pockets of orcs that for whatever reason, did not hold to the ways of their tribes.
Perhaps they didn't pass a test of manhood, or they saw too many of their own die in pointless conflict, but it lead them to seek a better life.
Such tribes would possibly gravitate towards the borders of the hold of Belzken, perhaps with Varisia, where they might be able to make a new impression of their new group with some of the humans that live beyond their own land.
I could see such orcs doing as much as possible to distinguish themselves from their brethren, while constantly trying to gain acceptance.
It could also put the PC's in such an area into very engaging situations. A good ranger might find himself the champion of a favored enemy. A paladin might find himself defending members of a race that killed a comrade,etc.
I digress, but I think that making a good tribe one of the possible consequences of the sheer concentration of orc-kind in the Hold of Belzken a fertile ground for adventure.
-QGJ
Thanks for the ideas everyone.
Clearly I was away from my computer for most of the spirited discussion
There were some great suggestions that I look forward to.
Oh and Abraham, you mentioned casting freedom of movement 4 times a day to avoid being grappled.
Totally agreed, but if you're playing with non-core materials, the spell Heart of Water in the Complete Mage is great to have in effect. It lasts for 1 hr per level and gives you some swim check mojo, but during the duration you can use a swift action to activate a freedom of movement effect.
It shortens the remaining duration to 1 rnd per level, but it effectively keeps freedom of movement at the ready all day. '
So, I have an idea for a BBEG. Problem is I can't do it using the standard classes.
I'm totally on board with making the bad guy the way you want, but personally I've always found a thrill in finding a way to fit a crazy concept into the rules. There's always that awesome moment when the PC's say: "What WAS that guy!?!"
It sounds like you've got a really neat and engaging idea there. Let's talk it out...
Krome wrote:
I want a librarian that can walk through shadows, and cut throats. That is about it! He doesn't cast spells. He doesn't pick locks, he doesn't wield a great sword.
Librarian, to me, would be someone who had put tons of ranks into a lot of knowledge skills and who works in a library (maybe ranks in profession?). You could take a level of Bard to get some of the knowledge skills as class skills and then go rogue into shadowdancer. If you picked what few bard spells you had with an idea towards making him feel spell-less.
For example, if his bardic performance and the other abilities associated with it were based on oratory, then it might appear like he was using long dead languages to make his powers work.
Just my two e.p.
Greetings all.
There are some spells that last all day, or close enough that a wizard or cleric or whoever would want to cast them first thing in the day.
So far, the ones I've been able to peg are
Core:
Mind Blank
Moment of Prescience
Spell Compendium:
Elemental Body (SO good)
Complete Mage:
Heart of Earth/Air/Water/Fire
Anyone else have any other good ones, core or otherwise?
My character in question is an arcane caster working off the wizard list.
NP, it's just funny to me that you being in the Top 8 of RPG ss 2010 you missed those threads. ;D Anyways congrats and have fun reading.
Abraham,
Clearly what talent I have is creative at the expense of all things technical ;)
Thanks for the tip. I'll be more diligent on my searches in the future.
Regards,
QGJ
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8, Contributor
