Jabsco's page

we stopped coming here because the game fell apart. This topic became null and void. you all just managed to keep it alive, also i had no intent of staying here, longer then the to make peace with my DM, i Find BG is a much better source of information.
Thanks for your time.
Jabsco

For everyone who thinks this is broken in 2 mins i came up with a charge build that easily takes Ni bug Bears

He did not take the vows as flaws...
I just chose not to post what flaws he took.

Unarmed Swordesage-Tome of Battle
Fist of the Forest-Complete Champion
Monk-Core
Deepwarden-Races of stone

There is no house rules here.

To those saying the bug bares that ran give no exp

If i was a rogue and there was a 24hd Dragon guarding a vault and I sneak by it do I not get Exp for beating it?

Exp is awarded by "overcoming" an encounter not beating it.

Also, In one more note, Why is there a problem with this. I could Craft a Single Class Build at level 2 that could Destroy 5 bug bears. All that happened is the Healer wanted to have lots of AC.

So for all you non Belivers out there I will wright up a level 2 Build that will crush 5 bug bears only useing 1 class

Warforged Gardener wrote:

Jabsco wrote:

How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

The Apostle of Peace isn't allowed to wear armor, but there is a troubling passage under their proficiencies that suggests they are allowed to use magic items to provide armor benefits without losing the effects of the PrC, however using such items would certainly de-activate the benefits of the Vow of Poverty, similar to losing Paladin abilities for committing an evil act.

I don't see any way that it particularly augments or assists the vow of poverty, and its benefits are limited to a spell progression, an anti-fiend power, and the pacifying touch, which is a standard action and could arguably have no effect against particular kinds of attackers. Someone who kills for the pure pleasure of it is likely immune(it says similar to Calm Emotions, not as Calm Emotions), since the ability only purges negative emotions.

Played as written, it's not terribly overpowered and is the least problematic of the class combination.

Exactly, Just one last point the only reason the Apostle of Peace cant use armor is because he has a vow of poverty.

t was a Flaw How ever the order you gain feats is

Flaws First then Level 1

So it would have been
Flaw 1: Sacred Vow
Flaw 2: VoNV
Level 1: VoP

In that order you qualify for them in the correct time

Jabsco wrote:

How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

The Apostle of Peace isn't allowed to wear armor, but there is a troubling passage under their proficiencies that suggests they are allowed to use magic items to provide armor benefits without losing the effects of the PrC, however using such items would certainly de-activate the benefits of the Vow of Poverty, similar to losing Paladin abilities for committing an evil act.

I don't see any way that it particularly augments or assists the vow of poverty, and its benefits are limited to a spell progression, an anti-fiend power, and the pacifying touch, which is a standard action and could arguably have no effect against particular kinds of attackers. Someone who kills for the pure pleasure of it is likely immune(it says similar to Calm Emotions, not as Calm Emotions), since the ability only purges negative emotions.

Played as written, it's not terribly overpowered and is the least problematic of the class combination.

Exactly, Just one last point the only reason the Apostle of Peace cant use armor is because he has a vow of poverty.

Jabsco wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Regarding Vow of Poverty, The Sage (Andy Collins) wrote:

Q: Dear Sage
Can a character avoid breaking the Vow of Poverty feat’s restrictions by declaring his weapon to be an ancestral relic, signature weapon, legacy weapon, or other special kind of weapon?
--William

A: No.

The Vow of Poverty feat (Book of Exalted Deeds p.48) very clearly states that you may not own or use any material possessions, with exceptions listed in the feat’s description.

The Sage strongly suggests that if you’re trying to find ways around the various Vow feats in BoED, you may be missing the point of the feats. (The book doesn’t bear the mature audiences warning just for subject matter, but also for approach to character creation.) These feats are intended to open up interesting roleplaying opportunities without unduly punishing a character’s playability.

In the case of the Vow of Poverty, the intent is to allow what would otherwise be a severely underpowered character (one without possessions) to retain viability in the game. Finding ways to retain one’s possessions while still benefiting from the feat defeats the entire purpose of the feat!

So, by that, no armor.

How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

Given that the Apostle of Peace depicted on Page 52 of the Book of Exalted Deeds appears to possess/be using a scroll, some sort of (possibly magical) staff, and a magical candle of some description, on top of the ornate robes, I am inclining towards a belief that the Vow of Poverty was erroneously printed as a prerequisite for the class - possibly in error of Vow of Purity, which like Vow of Poverty also comes later, in terms of alphabetical arrangement, than Vow of Peace.

Edit:
Clarification. The only specific mention in the class I can find of Vow of Poverty is under the prerequisites.

Exact Class Feature

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Apostles of peace gain no
proficiency with any weapon or armor.
As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the
use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect
them (such as a ring of protectionor bracers of armor). An apostle of
peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of
peace spells or use any of his supernatural
class abilities while doing so and for 24
hours thereafter.

Regarding Vow of Poverty, The Sage (Andy Collins) wrote:

Q: Dear Sage
Can a character avoid breaking the Vow of Poverty feat’s restrictions by declaring his weapon to be an ancestral relic, signature weapon, legacy weapon, or other special kind of weapon?
--William

A: No.

The Vow of Poverty feat (Book of Exalted Deeds p.48) very clearly states that you may not own or use any material possessions, with exceptions listed in the feat’s description.

The Sage strongly suggests that if you’re trying to find ways around the various Vow feats in BoED, you may be missing the point of the feats. (The book doesn’t bear the mature audiences warning just for subject matter, but also for approach to character creation.) These feats are intended to open up interesting roleplaying opportunities without unduly punishing a character’s playability.

In the case of the Vow of Poverty, the intent is to allow what would otherwise be a severely underpowered character (one without possessions) to retain viability in the game. Finding ways to retain one’s possessions while still benefiting from the feat defeats the entire purpose of the feat!

So, by that, no armor.

How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

Jabsco wrote:

Build Is as Follows

Dwarf
Monk 1/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1

Flaw: Sacred Vow
Flaw: VoPvrty
Level 1: VoNV
Level 3: VoPce
Level 4(ftr 1): Power Attack
Level 5: I dont know

Hmmm...it's purely a DM call, but I'm not sure I would allow Power Attack to be used in concert with non-lethal damage. It might be technically legal, but it violates the spirit of the feat.

I'd double-check to make sure those "Wisx2, Conx2" bonuses stack, but these are often unnamed bonuses so they probably do.

They are unnamed so they do stack, as for power attack, he is only taking it as a pre req, he will not be using it. But good looking out!! :)

I'm glad this came down to a intelligent discussion instead of the BAN all splat books it started as, that was my biggest problem with how this post was going. thank you all for joining in on the discussion.

Jabsco wrote:

He is going into Fist of the forest PrC, Power attack is a pre req for it.

I can't see how a Guardian of the Green leader would allow an apostle of peace into this group. FotF are hunters and killers (as per the fluff).

Willing to be persuaded on that though... I assume your DM is already on board with that idea?

Yes, the story of why a AoP would be a FotF is Every Hunter and killer needs a healer. The Character is More of a Druidic Figure Head By that Point in the Game, Like a Leader Of A FoTF clan, Level 20 is not taken Lightly in our games, because we die around level 6 most o the time, that is why all of our Player side from the new guy have learned to make there characters as survivable as possible.

Lathiira wrote:

If he tries to wear magic items of armor, there goes Vow of Poverty for him. Just because the PrC lets him wear those it does not follow that it exempts him from the limits of Vow of Poverty. After all, monks can wear rings of protection and bracers of armor, because they aren't armor but wondrous items that increase AC.

Vow of poverty does not exclude occasionally being loaned gear by other party members.

At what point it changes from 'loan' to 'nominal ownership' would be subjective to the GM I would think.

VoP explicitly states you cant be give gear to use, ever. The only way he can use Magic Items is if they are X of Armor and that is a Class Feature of The Apostle Of Peace, that directly Mods the VoP

Sorry for the double post, I am trying to answer everyones questions

Also he has not yet played as the level 5, I think once the DM sees the only increase to his power is his AC going up things may calm down. He did overcome an encounter rating 10 as a LvL 2 that would be the DM's fault for tossing that at him.

Jabsco wrote:

Jabsco Character is the orc post

The only reason i show concern is I was ask if I would play something other then a caster, and If splat is banned, both the monk and I will fall behind the Druid Making our gaming Experience null and Void. No one wants to play back up characters to a druid that by level 10 can effective ley be the party's; Tank, Healer, Caster, and Glass Cannon ( or DPS if your MMO people)

Lathiira wrote:

Another question: why does this nonviolent person have Power Attack? Is he building up to some feat using this as a prerequisite?

Perhaps I missed it, but how did this guy end up 3 levels ahead of the rest of the party?

Umm, I think the first post was saying that in terms of Armour class he may as well be three levels ahead of the rest of the party.

No, he gained 3 Levels while we were in "comas"

Another question: why does this nonviolent person have Power Attack? Is he building up to some feat using this as a prerequisite?

Perhaps I missed it, but how did this guy end up 3 levels ahead of the rest of the party?

Q1: Apostle of peace Requires VoPoverty as a pre req, its level one ability lets you use magic items for armor purposes only with out breaking the vow.

Q2: He is going into Fist of the forest PrC, Power attack is a pre req for it.

Q3: With no one around he Overcame an encounter with 5 bug bears. The are CR 2.

Jabsco wrote:

Build Is as Follows

Is this the build of the character in question or a possible build for said character?

This is the build in question, I don't know to much past level 5, but you get the gist of it, I think he will be using the celestial Mystic To finish the Casting progression of the apostle tho.

Second to use the candle as a gate you don't have to be a cleric.
The cleric thing is only the second of three abilities the candle has:

1:Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.

2:A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

3:In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.

Build Is as Follows

Dwarf
Monk 1/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1

Flaw: Sacred Vow
Flaw: VoPvrty
Level 1: VoNV
Level 3: VoPce
Level 4(ftr 1): Power Attack
Level 5: I dont know

Then He Has Many Exalted feats From VoPvrty

He will be Going in to Deep warden and Fist of the Forest as well
And toping it off with Apostle of Peace

this will net Him
Wisx2 to AC
Conx2 to AC

and Apostle of Peace will allow him to ware magic Items of Armor.

He will be a healing Tank something Akin to a Super Buddah.

Jabsco wrote:

Yes, I own all the books. Why do you ask

I was asking Moff, not you, hence the 'Moff:' I preceded my question with... :)

I was just about to edit, you ninja'd me sorry mate

Yes, I own all the books. Why do you ask

Jabsco wrote:

Also, I would like to know your Ideas about My post and not just The mater I posted it in.

Ok, your post does nothing to help the matter at hand. All it does is basically say "3.5 is broken". But you took a long time to say that.

If you are in the party in question, why are you trying to break the game rather than try and come up with a good character and have fun with it? You seem so bent on trying to find every possible problem with the system rather than enjoy a well thought out power or character.

Your "solution" seems to be that everyone in the group should make just as broken a character. When the whole point of gaming (usually for me) is to have fun with the story and simply get together with friends.

I'm Playing a Half orc Barb 20, this is not my char, The problem I found with everyones posts, is that these post will scare my DM in to banning Splat Books, in which case the Barb Will Sink to the bottom of the group at about level 12 when the druid blossoms. And the monk only seams overpowered Because a Wizard Has not Cast Protection From X yet. AC wont matter by level 10, So all that is happening is My DM is being Given False information about the level of brokenness that each splat book has been awarded.

Jabsco,

I see you're new to the boards, so I'll excuse the perceived lack of tact your post generates as a side effect of text stripping context.

1) the party in question seems to be between 2nd and 5th level.

2) Please watch the profanity, it often indicates a lack of forthought.

3) Using a 20th level character against 2nd - 5th level characters. Congratulations for discovering this tactic. Most folks save the time of statting up a 20th level character and just say "Rocks fall, everyone dies."

I am in the Party in question, I only used a curse once, and it is because I missed it upon editing, Though I am sorry I did miss it because I do agree, Cursing does lead people to believe you are unable to muster the intellect to Bring proper vocabulary to the Table (no pun intended), How ever I was not Using the 20th level Characters to beat the 2-5th level ones, only to display how core is more broken then Splat. The reason I seam so Dismay is this type of response is the kind that will get Splat books Baned from my Game with no forethought.

And I believe a 5th level Character starts with 9000 gold, which is more then enough to buy one candle of invocation, which is one of the most broken things in DnD.

Also, I would like to know your Ideas about My post and not just The mater I posted it in.

I'm Willing to bet the lot of you are new to this game, First of all the most over powered Build In the Entire Game is Druid 20, With Natural Spell at Level 6. Full Divine casting and Dire Poler Bear Form. And Thats Core, A monk with Vow Of Poverty, Vow of Peace, And Vow Of Non Violence, can be easly done with 2 flaws. Also Vow Of Poverty Quickly becomes useless at level 12 when every one can fly Via the party wizard and Every has +15 Str thanks to the Buff crazy Cleric. And the Fighter has Like 3 +3 weps, The Ranger has a spliting Great bow with many shot making his +12 bab fire 4 Arrows Per Shot.

Now Per calm Emotions From D20 SRD

"This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures."

Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive

This sentence is the most important wording of the spell. Too bad the Aura Affects Your party as well. Thats gotta be a big Turn Off for the Orc Barb/Frenzied B. You know the one who has no class powers when he is with-in 20 ft of the monk.

That brings me to my next Point, Make everything that attacks the monk Ranged! Holy crap now the Aura does nothing.

Oh and as for AC 28 thats little kids s$!%.

Take a Dwarf Druid18/Deep Warden 2

Now Shape Shift into a Shambling Mound, Now get 1000 lvl 1 commeners to poke you with electric arrows allowing them to so it moves past your AC, Shambling Mounds gain Con from Electric Dmg, and Deepwardens gain Con to AC, You now have Nigh Unlimated AC. this is core +1 splat book.

Wanna go more core, I pose this Wizard 17/Archmage 3, This character can Use Genesis. He can Creat his own Plains, Made of anything, Like Platinum, now we have all the money we need, and lets not get in to the Cheese with the spell "GATE"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

actually read it, its long, however I can summon any thing. Like a planatar, now i am a wiz 20 and i control a cleric 20, Sow Wiz 20 and Clr 20 casting on 1 char.

or my favorite Core Item that spells broke.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Candle of Invocation
Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.

A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process.

It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.

Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp; Weight ½ lb.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah I can now cast Gate for only 8,400 gp and use it to summon a noble Jinn, 3 wishes any one, oh one of them is for a seconed candle of invocation!

So now What splat books are broken.

Also monk 1 + unarmed swordsage 2 = WISx2 to AC noobs.

All of you need to read way more about all the classes before you decide what is broke and what is now, The Op ask for help and you did nothing but lie to him, mistakenly or not. Also you told him his chars were cheating, I know more about these rules then any of you and I looked over the Monks Char sheet myself. The only thing the monk can do is survive the first 10 levels Really well, Then he becomes useless when everything is immune to subdule damage, and he cant use Magic Items, Where as the Druid Kills everthing in 1 round Cuz She is a poler Bear and quickens a Summon Nat Ally, to bring in more poler bears, and then sudden quickens a twin save or die.

Remember Children While the Fighter is still playing DnD at level 20 The Wizard Cleric and Druid are playing, F-k Reality up the back side and Wand powered Versions of nuclear holocaust tag!

Also, as a side note to any one who think psionics are overpowered, Play a wiz, cleric or druid at lvl 20