Huron's page

Yeah, I agree with Mauril on this. With Huron's interpretation, a polymorphing caster/fighter, such as a Dragon Disciple using Form of the Dragon II gets 12 attacks per round (2 bites, 4 claws, 4 wings, and 2 tail slaps), which does not seem to be the intent of the rule/item.

OUCH! Thats just wrong!

I see your point Zonto, but I rather think that it wasnt designed with the dragon in mind or the dinosaurs. But removing it kind of requires to remove the possiblility from TWF as well. A much smaller thing to do I admit.

Still I think that I would rather let things be RAW, as it is balanced for most normal character and make houserulings for all things animal, as the animal rules are so messed up allready. That way most characters can just play away and those who oviously want to tweak out to the max have to get the blessing of the DM.

But thats my 2 cents.

Well the issue with the lion rogue is that it is way out of proportions to begin with.

But purely damagewise lets look at a rogue twf.

6 attacks dealing 1d6+3d6+10d6 + maybe 18 with powerattack and +5 weapons

that makes for 78d6 + 104 potential dammage, w/o speed. Admittingly not close to a lion ninja on crack. But still scary.

I think that the problem comes with allowing animal characters in your campaign that have abilities that were not balanced for character use to begin with. I mean why not take a Deinonychus while you are at it. It has five attacks straight up and is only CR3 so you can add tons of rogue levels and what not. (if I understand it right).

Still something I think wouldnt be permitted in most campaigns. But thats just me.

It gets game-breaking in that it completely doubles the damage output of a natural attack using character. The intelligent dire lion scout rogue I mentioned above? Average DPR against AC 30 (the expected AC at CR15) is about 392. It's 784 if he gets to apply Speed to all his attacks and 428 if he only gets one extra attack. That's a huge swing in damage.

Well what RAW rules are you using to build an intelligent dire lion scoute rogue?

If we stick to core/apg and friends it atleast does not break the fighter vs barbarian vs ranger stuff like Tem said.

I think there is something else in the lion build that might need some overview. or?

and at that level the barb would come closer with higher str and a potential holy on her claws (totally removing all to hit bonuses).

30d6 + 96+18(more str and rage)+24(more power attack)
=> 30d6 + 138

Maybe lower max than the warriors but maybe a better average hit chance?

But disallowing the speed would half that dammage and make it far from compareable with the fighters. So maybe RAW is actually more ballanced.

Monks could easily be argued that they have one weapon, their body, since no specific parts are ever given.

Tnx for everyones input. :)

Pardon my calculations!!!

I just saw that you can only have one of the fire, shock, cold stuff at any one time.. removing 2d6 dammage from all of the fighter attacks but adding a +5 enhancement bonus.

so only 36 d6 + 215 and 25d6 + 220 resp.

still too much if I may say so though.

//Edited to add enhancement bonus

But basically the only "fair" rule that doesnt create ninja tigers or ginzurangers is that no matter how many weapons you enhance, it works like the haste spell and you only get the sugar once!

Otherwise I could see a TWF go something like this:

Main*5 + off*4

With shortswords of speed holy fire lightning cold for simplicity

do a potential 9 * (6d6 + str(7) + powerattack(10)) at some high lvl 16 or so

thats somewhere north of 54 d6 + 170 or 124 to 394

Well here its probably the other weapon bonuses that does it and not the speed but still you see the numbers.

So really.. maybe the ninja tiger is the only fair deal to measure up to TWF fighter/rangers?!?

Not to mention Two handed fighters with 30str and powerattack
doing 5x 2d6 (weapon) + 5d6 (enhancements) + 15 or 20 (str) +20(powerattack)
for a round 35d6 + 195

Any how I think that the natural weapon guys are not really in a strong lead w/wo speed weapons.

FiddlersGreen, I can agree and I might not. I mean if it works for two weapon fighters it should work for natural weapons too. And giving up +3 of your potential +5 (as if you ever get to lvl 20) is also fairly steep. Surely much heavier than getting a pair of boots of speed and call it a day.

But it could make my possessed little girl very scary at higher levels.
(Half-orc that looks human) barbarian with darkvision bite attack and 2 claws and (in the future) pounce, rend, imp natural weapons, elemental rage and dammage reduction. All for a nice little pounce charge together with speed amulet:

2 x bite: 1d6 (bite) + 1d6 (fire) + str + powerattack
4 x claw: 2d6 (claw) + 1d6 (fire) + str + powerattack
2 x rend: 1d6 rend

=> potential 18d6 + 6 x (str + powerattack)
at lvl 10 str would be around 20 + rage = 24 (+7)
and powerattack would be +6 (with a bab at 10)

so 18d6 + 78 or between 96 and 186

At higher levels throw in dreadful carnage and terrifying howl for spice and flavour. :) Growl!

Well the Speed enhancement sais:

"When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it."

And I have 3 weapons enhanced so I should have three attacks.

Just as a TWF should get an extra attack with each weapon. or?

This is not the haste spell its a weapon enhancement.

So does this change anything?

Amulet of Mighty Fists can have 3 of its potential bonuses turned into the Speed enhancement if I understand it right. The speed enhancement in turn tells that the weapon gets 1 extra attack per round.

But if a character has say 2 claws and a bite, and all three get enhanced ... that would make 6 attacks! :)

Just reading it very RAW I guess.

And sure the natural attacks will never be +5 flaming holy shocking freezing for a good extra 5d6+5 dammage but would it work?

Cheers,
J