Ellsofthehells's page

Wow ok I said I wouldn't argue one way or the other but there's no way I can't weigh in here after reading your reply and the full page you just linked. I'm happy to say pretty convinced that we already reached the correct conclusion.

throwing a wet blanket on the party

Tom references old text and you should look at the current online PRD at AoN for Weapon rules.

The text Tom quoted and the text there is identical, it features no changes in wording, so you can't dismiss the text for that reason.

while it is nice to read a snippet and say "that's it" it would be best to read the entire section on weapons as terms can be used in different ways in different contexts and think about what it says.

Somewhat condescending, and having read the entire section nothing contradicts the "snippet".

The text goes onto say that any weapon can be a thrown weapon so it waxes rather general. It's tricky and you have to wade down into improvised weapons...

Any weapon being able to be thrown doesn't change the weapon's classification as a "melee weapon" or a "ranged weapon" or "improvised weapon" or whatever else its classified as. It's not "tricky" for me to grasp that...

For a pedantic reading of "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." the dagger IS effective in melee so that knocks it out while it remains a thrown weapon. Yes, it's that tricky "or" as there is no comma to separate the phrases.

Its not a pedantic reading of the ranged weapons sentence that makes daggers still be classified as melee weapons when thrown, it's the very simple sentence that immediately precedes it that does: "Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well." Pretty cut and dry statement that just because the melee weapon is able to be thrown or is being thrown it still remains with its classification as a melee weapon, even if throwing it is a ranged attack.

Is it being too picky? Probably as RAW isn't really intended to be scrutinized too closely as it's a Work of Art and not a Technical Manual.

You aren't analysing it too closely, you're ignoring the cut and dry bits and exclusively isolating ambiguous bits without their context to support incorrect conclusions and then using that as a basis for dismissing the entire section... When picking up a new game, the first thing you do is pick up the rule book. This is the rule book for this game. It contains the rules. The rules tell you how the game should (generally) be played. Deviation from the rules is a valid choice, but that doesn't make the rule book more of a "work of art" than a "technical manual".

technically it is a "use case" where the name changes on how it is used in the moment AND a category name based on weapon chart titles.

No, it doesn't. Its classification as "thrown" or "not thrown" changes based on if its being thrown or not thrown in the moment, but as described above, that attribute is not exclusive to either classification of melee or ranged weapons so you shouldn't think you need to recategorize its weapon type based on that.

In my reading "interlocking" would tend toward mutual exclusivity as "congruous, overlapping, or non-conflicting" would imply an inclusive relationship.

Tracking down where it mentions the word interlocking, we find it here: "Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large)." A Dagger being able to be thrown does not detract from its "usefulness in close combat". It doesn't stop being a melee weapon at any point, even if you are making a ranged ATTACK with it. "Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well" remains true.

It's all muddled

IT Isn't muddled.

which is why when the Magus class mentions a restriction the simple reading is to just use the weapon charts as that's pretty straight forward.

The weapon rules page supports this too.

A GM can make a call to allow a dagger as a ranged weapon so it's best to let them handle the situation in their game with a player they trust as it opens the door for all thrown weapons and that's not a small thing.

On the rare occasion we play monopoly, we make it so that after landing on a train station you can spend money to travel anywhere on the board. Doing so is our call and it opens the door for everyone to do it. Of course a GM can make the call to deviate from the rules (just like our monopoly game) so long as the table is happy, but this isn't the homebrew forum!

So again, you and your GM should read the section on weapons and the Magus class restrictions and the weapon sharding ability (as I originally suggested) then sleep on it and take a few days to make a decision. I don't think a shortcut is the right answer.

Having read the section and all the mad discourse, we'll still aim to be following the rules, no shortcuts or homebrew to change between melee/ranged weapon classifications on the fly, thanks!

My forum lurking sister is finding me getting fired up about this very funny. She's clearly very pleased with herself for directing me here.

Pathfinder Core rules on Equipment:

Quote:

Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

So it can be a melee weapon and still be "thrown as well" but ranged weapons are projectile weapons or the thrown weapons "that are not effective in melee"...

Dagger definitely falls into the first category so i'm going to tell my sister that I should be fine just using the base magus. Glad I don't need to bother with the archetype or carrying around a different weapon just for its arcane bond.

Thank you Mr Sampson ~^.^~

lol... and we're back to my 'terrible' suggestion.

Your suggestion was "terrible" (said in good humor) because your answer to a RULES question about arcane bonds and then which version of spell combat worked with a character dedicated to throwing daggers was to... Tell me not to be a character dedicated to throwing daggers and use other weapons... I mean, come on!

If the base Magus’ spell combat works with thrown melee weapons (and I’m not 100% convinced this is the intent) then Card Caster might be the way to go as its version of arcane pool and spellstrike both work with thrown weapons (not just cards).

"This ability otherwise functions identically to spellstrike, except it can only be applied to thrown RANGED WEAPONS"

So its just a more restrictive version of the eldritch archer's spellstrike or the myrmidarch's ranged spellstrike...

For some reason I thought thrown daggers were treated as ranged weapons when thrown/for spell combat, but I don't know why and I can see why people are telling me otherwise and I really don't frequent the rules forums enough to try arguing with people that likely know more than I do. So long as I know the rules before I play the character I'm sure everyone will be happy, its just odd that there doesn't seem to be a consensus on it!

So are we back to thinking I need eldritch archer to throw daggers during spell combat? That's the deciding factor for choosing the archetype or not at this point.
Forget the arcane bond, having to hold an extra ranged weapon for the arcane bond or not doesn't really matter!

Well the solution proposed was to have a different arcane bond, like a composite short or long bow, poisoned sand tube, shuriken, chakram, throwing shield or wrist launcher held in one hand (probably whatever is discrete or beneficial, like the launcher or the shield) and just use the other hand for all the knife throwing. That was IF i can use the daggers with ranged spell combat.

Then people here were saying I'd instead need the default spell combat as daggers are in the melee weapon chart, but that starknife thread is saying the opposite... So not sure where we stand now.

I just caught my sister up and she told me i'd "better get to the bottom of it!" obviously jokingly, but now its actually bugging me ^.^

I like the arcane spells a magus gets, the familiar arcana, the action economy, and lots of other things though, so I'm pretty set on magus. The RAW fuddy-duddiness of this rules forum was what i was looking for!

If the character is noticeably underwhelming then my sister will probably just throw a special magic dagger my way to compensate, so i don't plan on visiting the advice forum for any optimisation stuff.

ADVICE: if that's all there is to it then be a Magus wielding a bastard sword using exotic wpn prfc 1hnd'd OR elven thornblade (may still need to spend a feat) OR falcata. As backups get a mwk cold iron gladius and one of elysian bronze as WpnFnss still applies. Stick with a comp shortbow (horseback) or comp longbow (non-mounted). I'm sure there are Magus threads in the Advice Forum.

That's TERRIBLE advice for someone wanting to play a knife thrower! ^.^

(But seriously as long as we're doing things by the rules by either having the eldritch archer archetype or not to throw the daggers in spell combat, whichever is correct, then she'll be happy. She's uptight like that.)

Ellsofthehells wrote:

... Oh, ok I get it. So if i want to throw daggers using spell combat, I'd just need to not take the archetype and use the base magus spell combat ability because they're in the melee weapons table?

That's much simpler! I thought they were considered ranged weapons when throwing them. Thank you! ~^.^~

Yes/No... talk to your GM. I'm pretty sure as soon as a Magus lets go of a thrown weapon delivering a spell with it becomes questionable (see #2 below). It is a bit open to interpretation so you might fish out a YES. I'm not totally closing the door as I can see why some GMs might allow it but I'm not gonna say it's hopeful. Your GM will also have to consider Sharding(+2) Wpn Abil.

The archetype has two things going for it that the base Magus does not; 1) allowing the offhand to be filled with a ranged (2hnd) weapon and still getting off spell combat{empty offhand} etc as it is otherwise expressly forbidden. 2) allowing spells at a distance as spellstrike{deliver spell via wielded melee wpn}. The [Not PFS] means Organized Play rejected the archetype for one to several reasons and it's not a PR issue for this one.

I suggested some weapons above as they are interesting applications after the first two standard items. The key (as always with Magus) is crit fishing as that is the source of their "spiky" damage.

My sister is the GM and she told me to consult the forums to look into it for her. I'm happy not being able to spellSTRIKE with the thrown daggers if that's the trade-off, so long as I have the right spell combat ability (with or without the archetype, i don't mind) to be able to buff + full attack.

After being told the arcane bond couldn't be a dagger I also wanted to know so i can start drawing my character and know what I'm doing with their hands. Having to wield a whole other weapon for the arcane bond or not changes what i'll draw...

Happy that the base magus apparently can spell combat with thrown melee weapons though, its simpler and means all the class features are in the one book (that we have)!

Ellsofthehells wrote:

Oh, but I can still use a dagger for ranged spell combat? From my googling lots of people talk about it as if its an option so would I just need to hold one the weapons you mentioned while throwing the daggers with the other hand?

If that is the case the throwing shield sounds like a great option for some added defense!

Eldritch Archer wrote:

an eldritch archer must use a ranged weapon for spell combat.

Same reply as above. A ranged weapon is a weapon that appears under the heading Ranged Weapons in the Wapon tables in the different supplements. Darts, Javelins, and Throwing shields are in, daggers are out.

Note that "Not PFS" generally means that there are problems with the archetype. Probably because the rules are unclear.

Oh, ok I get it. So if i want to throw daggers using spell combat, i'd just need to not take the archetype and use the base magus spell combat ability because they're in the melee weapons table?

That's much simpler! I thought they were considered ranged weapons when throwing them. Thank you! ~^.^~

Oh, but I can still use a dagger for ranged spell combat? From my googling lots of people talk about it as if its an option so would I just need to hold one the weapons you mentioned while throwing the daggers with the other hand?

If that is the case the throwing shield sounds like a great option for some added defense!

Can my eldritch archer magus that plans on using thrown daggers choose one of their daggers as their ranged weapon bond? ^.^