Echidna's page

shallowsoul wrote:

Vod Canockers wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

GM fiat should never be used to fix something.

PRD wrote:

The Most Important Rule

The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.

Im sorry but the above is not a fix nor was it meant to be. Changing a rule because you dont like it is something completely different than needing to change it because it has elements that dont work.

And in my opinion the rules for creating magic items doesn't work. When you can enchant something easier and quicker than what it takes for the item to be originally made there is a problem.

This is an argument for the mundane vs magical threads. It takes a long time to create a fire with two sticks and some tinder. A wizard snaps his fingers.

The fact that the game makes you take more time to make a mundane item over magical doesn't affect the magic item creation rules. They are two separate creation systems.

Rules you must follow. Guidelines are best practice. It isn't an opinion. I literally posted the definitions.

Items listed in the book you can make unless your GM houserules no.

Items not listed only exist if your GM says you can have them. If the GM decides to let you have them, they are advised to looking at existing items for pricing and then there are a set of guidelines to consider.

There are also a set of monster creation guidelines in the bestiary, but I don't think many people are arguing they can use those as hard rules to make PC's.

And I think most people would agree the same comes into play with the race creation guidelines in the Advance Race Guide.

Why some seem to perceive more entitlement from custom item guidelines than other guidelines in the book is beyond me.

We weren't arguing custom items so please don't change this topic. Those same guidelines were used to price the items in the book that are all available to players in PFS.

You were arguing the semantics of the word guideline. Paul also provided you with a dictionary definition that you're dismissing because your dictionary is better than his dictionary. I even told you of a thesaurus entry from the same website you took your definition from that says they are synonymous.

I remember learning about synonyms and homonyms in grade 2. A synonym is two, or more, different words with the same meaning.

Respectfully, a guideline is not a rule.

A rule is something you must do to be in compliance.

A guideline is a suggestion of how to best proceed.

Very, very different.

Respectfully, this is your opinion and not that of the academic community. You told Paul to use dictionary.com, and I asked you to use thesaurus.com. They are parts of the same website. If rule is synonymous with guideline, they mean the same thing.

Synonym as defined by dictionary.com

I already know you will cling to the word nearly and ignore the 2nd entry altogether though. Nearly does not account for some drastic variance that breaks a system, but it allows for some variance. The variance is the GM discretion part. In mathematics there's rules for variance. I don't think the game designers wanted us to all learn statistics before playing though.

Paulcynic wrote:

This is exactly true, well said :) I wish you had entered the conversation earlier. Although "Guideline" in terms of Item Pricing is restricted to one of two choices. Just to honor the suggestion made by the good man above, Dictionary.com define's "Guideline" as the following:

"A statement or other indication of policy or procedure by which to determine a course of action: guidelines for the completion of tax returns."

"a principle put forward to set standards or determine a course of action"

"guideline - a rule or principle that provides guidance to appropriate behavior
guidepost, rule of thumb
rule, regulation - a principle or condition that customarily governs behavior; "it was his rule to take a walk before breakfast"; "short haircuts were the regulation"

Awesome, except this is actually what is at Dictionary.com

guide·line[ [gahyd-lahyn] Show IPA
noun
1. any guide or indication of a future course of action: guidelines on the government's future policy.
2. a lightly marked line used as a guide, as in composing a drawing, a typed page, or a line of lettering.
3. a rope or cord that serves to guide one's steps, especially over rocky terrain, through underground passages, etc.
4. a rope or wire used in guiding the movement of stage sce

rule[ [rool] Show IPA noun, verb, ruled, rul·ing.
noun
1. a principle or regulation governing conduct, action, procedure, arrangement, etc.: the rules of chess.
2. the code of regulations observed by a religious order or congregation: the Franciscan rule.
3. the customary or normal circumstance, occurrence, manner, practice, quality, etc.: the rule rather than the exception.
4. control, government, or dominion: under the rule of a dictator.
5. tenure or conduct of reign or office: during the rule of George III.

There are guidelines on how to price and design custom items.

There...

Now check thesaurus.com for synonyms to the word rule. You'll find guide which fits example 1, and guideline on there. If a rule is a guideline then a guideline is a rule.

The one example given by Paul is on thefreedictionary.com and is actually the first dictionary entry that pops up when I google guideline.

Why is semantics even a part of this discussion? There's too much focus on this and it adds nothing to this discussion.

Vod Canockers wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

GM fiat should never be used to fix something.

PRD wrote:

The Most Important Rule

The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.

Im sorry but the above is not a fix nor was it meant to be. Changing a rule because you dont like it is something completely different than needing to change it because it has elements that dont work.

But this is exactly what's happening. Many people have said they like the rules as they are now. Others took the time to give examples on the limitations of crafting vs. the benefits gained.

It seems like those arguing the rules are broken are making statements of opinion that they expect others to take as fact with no examples to back up their claims. You're saying the rules need to be changed because you don't like them. This doesn't make them broken.