Dubiousnessocity's page

Thanks for the heads up on when to allow that... That's a perfect spot.

The players guide to second darkness was one of the earlier and less helpful guides. The traits there in don't really do much for either campaign and once the veil is lifted I will have them all go over the players guide for SS, making any necessary changes they find.

This was a mean truck that I won't usually pull but, I looked over second darkness and didn't really like the campaign. So the result is treachery by gm...

And yes this is posted soliciting comments.

I have the group under the assumption that or next AP will be second darkness. But I will actually have them run salients skull, so as to make the castaway beginning feel crazy and surprising. I don't actually plan on using second darkness and plan on using PDF on tablet only for three books so nothing will be given away.

The PCs will start in Korvosa under the assumption that they will be headed to Riddleport. Aboard a ship. I will run some small adventure aboard the vessel, that brings them deep out into the ocean. Some survival checks, and some sightings of sharks in the water... A storm arrises and boom there they are beached on a tropic land 1000s of miles from their destination at the gold goblin, now they have to save the world from a serpent god.

Does paizo intend on doing anything so far as APs go with the Nirmathas/ Molthune war? What about for modules? just wondering because i want to do something with that, but i dont want my own stuff to interfere with anything that may come in the future for the purposes of game continuity. i am only one of 3 guys that run games for our group, and of i have a campaign go one way and paizo goes another, it gets screwy.

Not sure if anyone else saw this, but sanity for a fighter is a killer. Fighter in my group now has psychosis(he went CE) then he gained a mania towards children (because of um...spoilers) and at level 11 which they will be at the end of the chapter, a CE fighter could potentially kill the group.

does he want vengeance? should i have him fade out of the campaign... should he come back? looking for ideas here...

Tavern/Bar/Inn names in fantasy and fantasy games traditionally are kind of supposed to be clever, pun-tacular, gross, suggestive, stupid and/or hilarious.

They're intended to give you the quick reaction they're going for, maybe an idea of who you'll be finding inside, and then that's about it. Don't give it too much thought.

Use them as you see fit.

I'm playing the Carrion Crown AP and the first Inn my PC's came across in Lepistadt was named "The Winding Way" solely because I knew it would ellicit a laugh and the standard "Oh $%^& you" look.

Wikipedia has areally good article on this very subject going into the history and naming trends of inns and pubs and gives a very long list of names of them. one like the ever popular george and the dragon(for the patron saint of england) could be changed to aroden and the devil, or sarenrae and the beast...

remember alot of the names are what the picture on the sign is because of the lack of people knowing how to read.

I have played every official version of Star Wars roleplaying games to come down the turnpike, and three homebrews based on BRP/Runequest, GURPS and d20 Modern. It's my opinion that Saga was the best implementation of Star Wars in a roleplaying game that has come about yet, and shelling out the twenty or so bucks for the main book on ebay is a way better allocation of time and resources than converting Pathfinder to fit with it.

you wont find i for less than 50. but its well worth the price. where as pathfinder is certainly the best system for fantasy roleplaying, saga is the best ive seen for the star wars universe. use saga and make the conversions. its not too bad.

if its an alchemist, why not some kind of clockwork or frankenstein-esque golem? its simple and you can even give it a couple of avantages like the ability to trip the grab ability.

treat it like paranoia. maybe those old rules would work well too.

Magically powered submarines!

When does world war golarion hit? because if there are magic submarines, youll need magic golarion nazis to run em!

(Hobgoblins perhaps?)

Also, as a replacement for a meteor and its impending impact, which is not scary at all in a sci fi setting, there will be a rift in space that is a causeway to a different dimension out of which come a few asteriods that land on nearby planets, but from which eventually comes a horror of immense size, in the form of a cuddlefish with exagerated tentacles. it is this beast the Sith have been seeking to bring forth and control, to attack and destroy coruscant, in their attempt to reclaim their former empire.

I sorta like the Cthulu/Lovecraft feel to this even if it doesnt EXACTLY fit the setting.

This is a gret idea. Here's how I would do it, set perhaps 100 years before The Phantom Menace. It is pretty much a straight conversion of each episode.

**Massive spoilers for Second Darkness follow, so be warned **

Introduction
The Sith are gone, but not entirely forgotten.

A group of Jedi masters who call themselves the Winter Council dedicate themselves to seeking out users of the dark side of the force and remain vigilant for signs that the Sith may be returning. They seek out Sith lore and Sith technology, to better understand their enemy.

The Winter Council are not popular with the actual Jedi Council, who feel their obsession with the past hinders them in dealing with the present, and that their exploration of Sith lore is dangerous. In fact, one of the Council, researching a legendary Sith doomsday weapon known as the Graviton Device, fell to the Dark Side some decades before, and has not been heard from since. The Winter Council have done their best to keep this quiet, but have vowed to deal with the renegade themselves; their network of agents are on the alert for any signs of the renegade or (even worse) the construction of a Graviton Device.

Shadow in the Sky
The Heroes are hired by an agent of the Winter Council, who suspects retired crimelord Saul Vancaskerkin may have ties to the Dark Side. They are asked to sign on as employees at Saul’s new casino, and keep alert for unspecified “suspicious activities”.

Saul’s home town, a hive of scum and villainy known as Riddleport, is also experiencing strange gravitic anomalies. As a result a strange distortion has appeared in the sky. A group of Republic scientists are looking into it, but so far have not been able to explain the phenomenon.

Saul has his problems with the local criminal element, so working for him is not without risk. At some point, Saul becomes suspicious of the Heroes, and arranges for them to be “neutralised”. The Heroes (hopefully) survive the attempted murder, and confront Saul. After the dust...

This is AWESOME, i thank you.

As i make the conversions I will post them here. are the statstics cool to post here if i do?

i found it but i thought it was pretty sub par, and i dont really want to run a star wars campaign in the established story. i was kinda looking at treating the story like DnD treats lord of the rings as a story.... just another groups campaign.

Dubiousnessocity wrote:

This will be my first foray into SWSE, but so far looking at the system it looks great, finding it was difficult, but thats not the point here.

Second darkness has Alien and SCi-fi aspects to begin with, just looking for some ideas from the boards here. the basic tenant for the conversion is drow=sith, and instead of an asteroid im going to have a dimensional rift opening at some point in the galaxy(by the sith) allowing for cthulu-esque creatures or shadows of them to emerge. aside from that, the actual conversions of stats and creatures is easy enough, just time consuming.

Any ideas would be most helpful, as well as any thoughts on certain chapters being replaced with others for "feel." i was thinking in particular that the sneak into drow(sith) lands chapter may be better off removed and replaced with one from maybe serpents skull replacing the yuan-ti with sith again...

Okaaaaaayyyyyy. Not discouraging. Right now, I can't think of anything, because I am awestruck at you wanting to do this, lol. I will think on it, though.

Im gonna take it as a compliment. :)

The deal is, i have been searching for a good sci fi game for over a decade with mixed results. pathfinder rocks, but im unwilling to create a plethora of classes for some setting no one will get because of a complete lack of familiarity. the star wars setting and rules set solve both issues. its certainly NOT PF, but for the setting i think the rules are a better fit for sure. i dont like drow, and will never use them or the path. so its the obvious anwswer to what one do i do. i want to do the path to SW conversion because i am lazy and dont want to put all the time and effort that goes into creating an entire campaign... THAT is the reasoning...

Thanks for the consideration of help!

This will be my first foray into SWSE, but so far looking at the system it looks great, finding it was difficult, but thats not the point here.

Second darkness has Alien and SCi-fi aspects to begin with, just looking for some ideas from the boards here. the basic tenant for the conversion is drow=sith, and instead of an asteroid im going to have a dimensional rift opening at some point in the galaxy(by the sith) allowing for cthulu-esque creatures or shadows of them to emerge. aside from that, the actual conversions of stats and creatures is easy enough, just time consuming.

Any ideas would be most helpful, as well as any thoughts on certain chapters being replaced with others for "feel." i was thinking in particular that the sneak into drow(sith) lands chapter may be better off removed and replaced with one from maybe serpents skull replacing the yuan-ti with sith again...

I have a question regarding AoOs. If someone moves through the threatened area of a character using a ranged weapon (a bow) and who has spiked gauntlet/cestus/armor spikes, or tries to grapple him, or does something else that would provoke an attack of opportunity, can the archer attack him? I am not sure whether you can attack with a melee weapon in the round in which you attacked with a ranged weapon, so I'd be grateful if someone could offer some insight into this problem.

id allow it. especially if the archer has a weapon ready to do so like a cestus, or armor spikes.

Lobolusk wrote:

Laithoron wrote:

Jiggy: Anyone offended by Seoni's dress or Alhandra's outfit should probably steer clear of beaches, swimming pools, the Internet, formal ballrooms, James Bond movies, beauty pageants, the magazine covers in the check-out aisle as the super market, prime-time television...

i do do most of that actually, lol i dont get why formal ballrooms? but i just wanted to say not trying to start a huge "thing" just asking is all i am well aware that what my choices are seen as extreme or what ever. in the words of bon jovi "it is my life and i will live it my way"

I just don't understand why it makes you guys so mad maybe i am misreading the posts.

It doesn't make people mad, so much as people have very strong feelings on the subject, and some people are slightly offended by the implications of what you're asking.

Mostly people get worked up about this because the implication of comments like yours (and I'm not saying that you think this) is that it's perfectly acceptable to promote extreme violence, but that it is morally offensive to have anything remotely titillating in art.

Pathfinder is a game where you can chop people into pieces with an axe, set fire to their corpse, and banish them to Hell. The implication of your post, in some people's eyes, is that you think that's appropriate for children, but a little cleavage will somehow cause them harm. Again, not saying that is what you think, but it does seem to be the implication, and it strikes many people as not just a bit backward, but a root cause of many of the problems plaguing our society.

i put my soap box down, have you seen it?

Dubiousnessocity wrote:

the initial question was what was the science being used by alchemists, and i posit that they dont study a science we do on earth because the physics of the world of golarion are simply different.

Doesn't hold water -- either it's magic and its supernatural therefore by definition outside the actual physics of the world of Golarion or it's simply science applied in a different form from what we know (the correct form for that world) -- can't have both otherwise Clarke's laws win since the magic is simply the science of that world following the physics of Golarion (Clarke's third law).

If it's the physics of that world then by definition what they are doing is the science of that world -- not magic. If what they are doing is in fact supernatural and therefore magical then it isn't following the laws of physics (which is after all what is needed to be supernatural or magical in the first place).

you are sort of right. you can have both their science and magic in both the same. its there in the game. and because its fantasy not scifi it doesnt have to follow clarks laws.

Wow, there's like five or six different arguments going on at once here...

But my biggest beef is with the blue dude going 'math' this and 'math' that when he never took the time to understand my point (or the math, for that matter).

simply because i dont agree with your side of an argument does not mean that i dont understand it. the math supports my argument far more than the one against, epecially if we are going to talk probability.

the initial question was what was the science being used by alchemists, and i posit that they dont study a science we do on earth because the physics of the world of golarion are simply different.

im not limiting science, actually im just seperating it from fiction in order to allow the fiction to fully blossom. which is maybe the entirety of our basis for argument.

i truly enjoy the idea of the game world existing as its own entity with its own set of physics laws and rule and equations, etc. that way our own science doesnt get in the way of the game. the way i run my game is when a wizard uses magic to conjure something up, he is channeling the energy through himself and to the means he creates by the use of the spell. no science of the real world involved. its magic, which is very real in golarion, not a metaphore for yet to be understood technology.

The way i see the game, as i stated yesterday, is as our concept of peoples myths and beleifs of the actual world 700 years ago. where dragons DO exist, they arent a volcano or earthquake. werewolves do exist, not a serial killer that has hysteria covering his footsteps. and magic is a very real and occasionally tangible force, as it is.

set, i fully agree with you on your points. except i dont need the psuedo science to follow up the magic. he polymorphs because the magic changes his form. he shoots a ray of searing light because his magic superheats the lines between he and his target. its simple, its unsophisticated, and mostly its fun.

thats my point though. magic is in the game DOES NOT have the tech, its medieval fantasy. whereas you can feasibly replicalte some of the effects in the game with technology, a wizard does not have a cell phone, he casts sending. a sorcerer does not use a taser, she casts shocking grasp. while the ends are the same or very similar, the means are worlds apart.

in the game magic, not science perceived to be such, is real. people dont think he cast fireball when all he did was throw a lit propane tank into the midst of the crowd of goblins. thats the step BEYOND realism that medieval fantasy takes. you move into a realm where what we know and perceive are NEEDED to do something and you take a step past that boundry. magic is one of those steps, the gods are another. dragons flight (mass to wing size ratio say a dragon is much lighter than his abilities would suggest...) the list goes on and on. my whole point on the matter from the beginning is that the science in the game does not nessecerily relate to our own because it is fantasy and there are so many circumstances that prove otherwise or at least VERY strongly suggest it.

your last point says that wed see it as magic. we wouldnt, weve moved beyond that as a society. we would certainly see it as alien, and abberant, not magic.

and lastly, i dont care about the name mispell. just being snarky.

you are losing the overall point here which is that magic isnt real. and while i think your point is that perhaps some of the effects of magic in the game could be replicated is valid, they cannot be done so without technology assisting. magic eschews the tech. and while energy of protons doesnt need mass, pretty much everything else does. even that is outside the argument. the point here is that a wizard uses means that are fictional to tap into a form of energy that at best is so improbable it falls into the same category of aliens built the pyramids.

alright. at speed of light the mass of energy becomes less substantial. BUT that doenst apply to magic in the world of golarion, unless you claim that magic is protons or of that ilk. and that it moves at light speed from one point to another. but if that were the case, then you would lose the ability to use it depending on the position you were on the world(if the magic comes from say the sun or moon, and as it is so lacking in mass it would be very easy to block it from use by a wizard by placing him in a force cage. or stone shaping around him to prevent outside interference). at that point the energy MUST move at that speed to be energy at all. but we know it works at night and day and under ground. so the magic-protons could not eminate from the sun. if they came from the earth itself, as they would need to in order to get both underground and above ground, how then would say the plane of air have magic?

its an interesting hypothesis, but it still cant hold up.

and the name is dubiuousnessocity.

Dubiousnessocity wrote:

energy ALWAYS equals mass multiplied by velocity squared.

Actually -- no it doesn't Einstein was close -- but he wasn't quite right. There are several points when E=MC^2 doesn't hold up -- indeed the equation itself has problems once you start getting into the deeper end of physics and goes absolutely spastic once you introduce quantum physics.

A little help here.

so how does that apply to a wizard making a fireball? hes not shooting protons.

its not as far as our knowledge lets us go. its FOR ALL THINGS. if you want around the rules and laws of physics you have to work within their constraints. there is no variance in this. energy ALWAYS equals mass multiplied by velocity squared. to conjure up a monster would not just use some massless energy occupying absolutley no space. you must have the energy to allow for this.

and i feel at this point it must be said, magic isnt real. its pretend. that is a fact. if you can prove me wrong ill back off, but you cant. its not real.

and if youd like mathematics books to be written as 1+1 is 2 as far as our knowledge goes, youll sound like the crazy anti-evolution people. AND even then if you wanted to argue that evolution doesnt have ample evidence for you, fine. PHYSICS IS MATHEMATIC. as soon as you allow for variances in a constant of mathematics, it falls apart and stops being true because of the reliance that one equation has on the next and so on. probablity on the eqaution of the makeup of energy has no place. it IS made up of that. always. energy is never just velocity or just mass, both are needed.

Magic cannot exist according to the LAWS set forth by 100s, even 1000s of GENIUSes attempting to dipsrpove one another. Magic, and golarion dont exist. thats fine. they dont need to for us to play a game of pretend with them in it. the world of D&D /pathfinder is make believe, and its rules on MANY levels dont make sense in a real world stand point. THATS OK. they dont need to. In the game we can teleport and have no spacetime ramifications. we can create fire without fuel, or make light with a snap of our fingers without anything to keep it going except this mysterious stuff called magic. this is all well and good. but it cant happen in real life.(if you argue this point with TECHNOLOGY, you are wrong).

LazarX wrote:

Actually you don't understand Many Worlds that well. It says that all POSSIBILITIES are expressed that worlds divide every time a decision is made. Something that's not a possibility is not going to be one of the Many Worlds. Personally I think the Many Worlds model is flawed and not something to be taken literally. I've actually been working on an inverse of the Many Worlds theory which I call the Kinetic Sculpture Universe... but that's something for another venue.

Incorrect.

'Decision' implies agency, which is an illusion.

Also, it entirely is possible, since conservation of mass and energy derive from Gauge Theory, and allow exceptions.

Further to clarify, it is not his words or gestures that cause the fireball, but in a worldline where one always precedes the other, how is he to know? Many Worlds allows corner cases; demands them, in fact. And the only other interpretations derive from the even more problematic and quasi-mystical Copenhagen interpretation, from which the dead-alive Schrodinger's cat paradox springs.

I could lecture you on the derivation of the Majorana and Dirac equations from Lorentz invariance, but that would likely jack my own thread. Let me just say (jestingly) in closing:

"My nerdrage is not impotent. It has ruined gods."

yuo are misinterpreting the multiworlds model. that states that the in the limitless worlds all possibilities according to the universal laws of physics, which are constant, are and will be played out. if those laws are broken even in one of the worlds they are false and the mathematics that have been done were mistaken. the possibility must be there. the laws of physics must support the possiblity. if they dont they are incorrect and the entire idea of the multi world model would be falsified as the mathematics that backed them were incorrect.

If magic in game conforms to the scientific method (hypothesis > data > experimentation) then by definition it is science regardless of what it appears to be. Is this the formula for spell research? Aren't spells merely experiments?

I think you guys are comparing apples to different colored apples.

yes it is. but it does NOT follow our physics nessecerily. which is my point. while in the game the characters are being scientific, theyre not being so in accordance to the real world. so the discoveries that are found in game have absolutely no relation in the real world.

so yes we are comparing apples to apples.

scientific IN GAME. that does not mean or have any relation to real world science.

Again, i am only saying that the physics in game do not follow the physics of the real world, and while similar, are not the same. and because they are not the same, the conclusions brought from OUR physics do not nessecerily apply in the game.

Magic doesn't make something out of nothing. It converts energy into matter or energy into another form of energy. We don't know if it is possible yet, or impossible. And the more we learn about quantum physics, the less we actually know about it.

remember the basic eqation of einstein e=mc2. if magic has this kind of energy you suggest, where is its mass, or its velocity(both would have to be significant as its velocity is limited(faster than light is not possible as the speed of light is the only real constant in space time)? magic is pulled out of thin air using an energy that does not follow our physics.

Magic must be kept in the realm of fiction as it is in the game. IN the realm of fiction science need not apply. in fact, as i posited earlier, science can be different. if youd like in your game for science to exist in addition to magic, go for it. i like to go full out, so nothing can be explained(or argued) with real world science. the game world exists as people thought the world existed 700ish years ago. this makes the existance of magic more plausible and to that point the rules in the game more fun.

Odd as it sounds the best explination I heard for this came from Elminster and I'm paraphrasing below. All fantasy realms seem to have a god/goddess of magic, so this is pretty universal.

"Magic is at the will of a goddess (mystra in this case). You can learn all the gestures and words of power you like, but if she doesn't wish it to work it won't. Magic is more than formula, it is the will of the great lady."

In other words magic has a will and doen't follow the rules of the natural world. It follows whatever rules/guidelines the relevant diety wants it to.

Magic and science are mutually exclusive, though in fantasy the two have the potential for synergy.

if magic does not follow the rules then the rules are way too incomplete and therefor useless. its a different set of rules for the game.

Quote:

Also note that all basic NPCs (even at level 1) have a minimum of 260 gp in value for themselves not counting their living conditions.

-These are for pc classes. They are by definition, special.

Quote:

Even if we are to instead agree that they should have less than a starting adventurer and gave them the 1d6x10 gp that a monk starts with they will still have at least 10 gp to start an average life!

Even a starting adventurer doesn't start with that much cash. They start with that much stuff: usually saved up over a lifetime.

As to effective magic items:

Quote:

Actually I rather proved that plant growth is cost effective -- a wand of it would be even more so since it would last 50 years for 500 acres or 1 year for 25,000 acres.

Plant growth it. The old 2.0 druids handbook assumed it was cast as part of a spring festival every year if the town had a friendly druid.

Also keep in mind that druids may not be supportive of casting a spell thats going to lead to population growth. Humans aren't the easiest critters when you consdier their ecological footprint.

To make this easier we can simply call it a free 100 man weeks of labor in the space of an hour, without a check once a week. With a (rather easy) DC 18 check you can get more hours out of it in the same week. A half elf at level 1 with a Cha of 15 (13 for base NPC +2 for racial) with his skill focus in perform(strings) and perform as a class skill is looking at a +9 on that check. If he can take 10 on it he can keep this going indefinitely, building a metropolis in a single day

Until the unemployed masons guild local 103 introduces the half elf to the business end of a shovel, steals the lyre and mixes him in with the cement.

I think you're underestimating the amount of mantime for a metropolis.

Quote:

Another very useful item would be a decanter of endless water -- which can easily be used to set up to provide unlimited irrigation, drinking water, and cleaning water for an

...

this is a confused argument, magic as it is in the GAME is MAGIC not science. my point about science is that its mathematical and is by all means correct. if you can prove otherwise to me please do so. but id go ahead and say you cant unless you are arguing under the pretense of religion.

I think perhaps the point i make is being lost here to people attempting to legitimize the game in a real world manner. ITS NOT REAL. if you think you can replicate the things goin on in the game you are wrong and i will ignore you form here on out. the rules in the game are designed to immitate the real world, but that begins to break down pretty quickly. ESPECIALLY with magic involved. as i mentioned earlier, yes at one point what was seen as magic eventually turned into science, but not all of it. As in the ame SOME of the rules and SOME spells sort of translate to real world science, if you take out the in game means to create them. but many of them simply do not. and because some dont follow the rules, that means the rules are being BROKEN. if a scientific rule is broken, it is wrong. for example if suddenly someone was able to create energy using only "M" intead of "M squared" the rule would be wrong, energy would no longer be E=mc2. Magic in game does that. NOT IN REAL LIFE. IN REAL LIFE THERE IS NO SUCH THING. because science of the the real world breaks down in the game (and by science i mean the tangibles, the mathematically proven and double proven constants) the game therefor uses a DIFFERENT set of scientific rules. rules that allow for the existance of magic.

Dubiousnessocity wrote:

continues to fail to understand the law of clarke #3.

and someone has difficulty seperating pretend from reality. :)

Paying for Plant Growth costs 150 GP and increases production for a 1 mile diameter by 1/3 for the year. Considering you can get three crops a year out easily that means you'll get the equivalent of an extra crop out by the end of a year.

A 1 mile diameter is equal to 500 acres. From this we find out that the average yield per crop per acre is 47 pounds of food

So we have 47*500*3=70,500 pounds of food for 3 crops per acre per year.

Now if we have plant growth added on we get another 1/3 of that or 93,765 pounds of food per year.

Animal feed costs 5cp per 10 lbs so using this worse case pricing we can arrive at a price per pound of food of: 9376.5x.05=468.825gp for the plant growth and 352.5 without it. So in the worse case scenario you sell everything you get as animal feed you'll come out worse for the casting (468.83-352.5=116.32gp at a cost of 150gp).

However if instead you sell the food as rations at 5sp per pound you'll make substantially more (3,525gp no plant growth and 4688.3 with plant growth) and make a real profit from hiring the druid.

Even assuming you only get 1 crop a year somehow we still arrive at a profit for the plant growth: 1,175 without plant growth and 1,562.77 with it.

So IF all your food goes to the animals you'll lose money -- in any other circumstances you'll gain from using plant growth.

Also:

Proof wrote:

Profession skill:
Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.

That's untrained -- I got a clue for you -- farming is a profession (says so in the skill) -- a single rank in it and you are earning gold pieces per week. Even if you roll a 1 for a total of a 2 (assuming you dumped your wisdom and only have a +1 bonus on the roll) you are still earning a gold piece a week (half of 2 is 1 which is the number of gold pieces a week you earn with your profession check),...

i think someone just got nerd burned!

Let's stop using the word "impossible" because, as has been shown in at least two ways (Clarke's Laws and statistics), nothing is impossible.

Quantum physics is a branch of science that people know very little about. When you get to a small enough level (smaller than the parts of an atom), things start behaving in ways we can't predict and don't understand. Electrons can literally be in two places at once. Things smaller than electrons don't appear to obey the laws of physics. In fact, when observed, they sometimes appear to obey the thoughts of the observer. Sounds like magic to me.

Just for the record, the way I view the fantasy world is that it's a parallel history in which magic took the forefront of research and development rather than regular technology. I see it as a feudal society that, rather than being headed toward an Industrial Revolution, is headed toward a Magical Revolution where the cost and use of magic will become even more widespread and cheap. I happen to agree with Lilith on the assessment of agriculture, as an example of this.

this would be an interesting argument IF MAGIC WAS REAL! it is not nor has it ever been. it was thought to be real, but science superceded it. and impossible is a fact. some things are impossible. the mathematics of physics and general relativity shows this. as does a scientific argument. whereas the existance of god cannot be DISPROVED, many other things can be proven one way or another. such as it is not possible for a person to fly without the use of technology. magic breaks the rules of general relativity as it can create something out of nothing. because it breaks such a basic accord of the theory, the entire thing at that point breaks down and the state of existence as we know it has no bearing anymore. it is impossible to create something out of nothing. according to magic in the game you can do that. evocation magic is just that.

thats the point of magic, its not scientific. to attempt to qualify it as such is to lose sight of what it is and what its for. the game is NOT realistic. no person can fall 200 feet, get up and keep fighting after taking 20 arrows to the gut. in Pathfinder/D&D you can. its a FANTASY, ie a MAKE BELEIVE world.

the point on our theories being well understood is that the equations that explain the laws of physics, when tested KEEP PROVING CORRECT. thats a good understanding

Dubiousnessocity wrote:

So is the argumen that magic in the game is some form of yet to be discovered science? there is no explanation of any of this. while some of the spells are similar to real world effects, they cannot be replicated as they are in the game. there is possible effects that appear in both worlds, but in our world we REQUIRE the machinery and technology. in the game the wizard just requires a book and an hour to study.

in order to teleport ItRW you would need an amount of energy that is incomprehensible, ie impossible. in the game world, you just need a wizard that has killed a sufficient number of trolls and orcs. there is no connection there.

The examples of real world science breaking down in the game world equate to those theories being false there. So atoms MAY exist in the game, but they MAY not. there is no proof of it according to the known state of existance in the game(the rules), what there is proof of is gods and magic. the existance of those 2 proves there is a real difference in the makeup of ours and the games worlds. SO the entire idea of science of the real world MUST be set aside in the game because it does not ALWAYS apply. there IS a similar set of rules in the game but they are not by any means identical.

SO in the question of atoms existance in the game, where is your proof?

Um... in a word no.

In order to teleport you need technology that we don't yet have. Also the energy requirements aren't impossible -- and the wizard isn't simply studying for an hour.

Tell you what go look into and learn some metaphysics and the theories that go with them and then come back. It's no where near as simple as you are suggesting and the point is precisely that it doesn't disobey the laws of physics simply that it uses alternate means that are as yet unknown to us. Could be that all the laws of physics and what not that people expound now are simply antiquated by the technology of 'magic' as they know it and they do things in such 'old fashioned ways' (by...

again your argument is magic could exist. it cannot. there is nothing that could allow for a person to do what a wizard does. you talk about technology REPLICATING it. that is not the same as actually doing it. our uderstanding of quantum physics is pretty clear, and the existance of magic would throw it off to a point it could no longer be reconciled. the discovery of dark matter in many ways completed the theory of general relativity, and while its existnce is a bit of an enigma, it is not the proof of magic, nor does it suggest it. basically the science of the last 100 years has proven to us how immense our universe is and how technology simply cannot take us to do what fiction allows.

The magical realm of dungeons and dragons ignores these leaps in discovery because they dont matter. its a fantastical place that our laws of physics do not apply. As much as some of the people on here want to say that magic is some undiscovered form of hyperefficient energy that allows for mathematical equation bending is silly. it MAGIC. leave it at that. the game is an amalgamation of what we perceived people to have believed what was true 700 years ago as the truth. thats the easiest way to see the game. not through philosophical ideas of that era that HAPPEN to match the truth. the game is FANTASY.

yes along time ago someone said that todays science was yesterdays magic, that does not mean that golarions magic is todays science. thats a false logical jump. why cant golarion live in a realm of magic, unexplained by our science? its a land of our imagination... how about we start using it.

So is the argumen that magic in the game is some form of yet to be discovered science? there is no explanation of any of this. while some of the spells are similar to real world effects, they cannot be replicated as they are in the game. there is possible effects that appear in both worlds, but in our world we REQUIRE the machinery and technology. in the game the wizard just requires a book and an hour to study.

in order to teleport ItRW you would need an amount of energy that is incomprehensible, ie impossible. in the game world, you just need a wizard that has killed a sufficient number of trolls and orcs. there is no connection there.

The examples of real world science breaking down in the game world equate to those theories being false there. So atoms MAY exist in the game, but they MAY not. there is no proof of it according to the known state of existance in the game(the rules), what there is proof of is gods and magic. the existance of those 2 proves there is a real difference in the makeup of ours and the games worlds. SO the entire idea of science of the real world MUST be set aside in the game because it does not ALWAYS apply. there IS a similar set of rules in the game but they are not by any means identical.

SO in the question of atoms existance in the game, where is your proof?

LilithsThrall wrote:

Honestly? That's the argument? That in a world where a man can turn a small bit of bat dung into a huge rolling ball of fire with just a couple of words that evaporation conclusively proves the existence of atoms?

I did give you fair warning not to think about it too hard, just for the sake of your game, but whatever works.

You'll find again and again that the atomic theory is one of the crucial underpinnings of our world. It was item #1 on the famous Richard Feynman's 'Six Easy Pieces,' and was the only one he deemed 'crucial' to retain in our collective memory if we were to ever enter another Dark Age.

If we're going to replace that with 'Gods did it,' there better be a pretty damned coherent mythology behind them to explain how they could design and maintain something as complex as a world similar to ours and not be so alien as to be incomprehensible (which would make furthering their agenda quite difficult for the average cleric.)

Why? if the theory of general relativity is so important in the world of fantasy how is there magic? the existence of magic, godly intervention, monsters and the like is pretty alien. the need for the world to have the atom or molecule or anything of that ilk is needless. the world is make believe. If there is the need for the science of OUR world, there could be no magic as energy could not exist without being created in some way. time travel, teleportation and all the space time spells would have horrific in game effects( i cast dimension door, ok you return 60 years later and the castle you had been in is now in various states of ruin). you cant have PART of real world science, only all or none. if there is not the existence of real world science, then there must be a science of sorts that is different, but largely similar to our own. it is in the world of magic and pseudo-science that golarion takes place. so to say that an atom exists in the world of golarion because it exists here is a logical fallacy.

BUT that is where the alchemist comes in, the researcher of the state of existence in a world ruled and created by magic.

funny thing about science in the game, i am totally into the idea of a medieval/rennaissance rogue scientist in the game world. where i have more difficulty is the gun slinger. Golarion has guns, cool. but the gunslinger feels about 200 years out of place. and thats 200 in the the wrong direction.

The alchemist feels a hell of alot better when you use him keeping in mind the thought process of scientists in the 13th through 15th cenuries. there was no concept of atoms, or microorganisms. the 4 elements made up all things, people were pretty sure that you could use mercury to turn iron into gold, they were just unsure how. black powder was there and it blew up if lit, but there wasnt much of a scientific reason for it other than the earth it was made from must also have been heavily infused with fire.

im with red on this one. it says AS A MOVE ACTION. if a gm does not allow him to finish his turn, hes being a jerk. the point is to allow the monk to teleport fight. its part of the reason a monk is cool. if you take that away you nerf him and there is another reason to not play the character.
i see no harm in allowing him to teleport, and make an attack in the same turn with that ability.
ive had a player that did just that to grapple with a wizard that had just flown away. it was how the group actually stopped him from escaping. thats badass. if he hadnt been able to grapple, he would have teleported, and fallen, then taken the 20d6 for no reason. as it was he choked the wizard out, let him fall, then teleported back to safety. the monk is freaking cool.

i think the rules about the zombies being staggered, in my opinion overrules that ability. just because the cavalier is getting everyone all excited to charge, does not mean that a zombie can suddenly leap into his pre undead form and attack like all is good. he is still staggered and there for could only do the charge portion of the action. though whats the point? a zombie isnt much of a distraction to whatever a party of 15th level characters are taking on.

you got it right

you dont listen well and you are either lying or have no idea what you are talking about. there is no such thing as a drop in the barrell and fire pouch. you HAVE to ram that in. that is FACT.
a cross bow i will concede to because i dont look to 20th level as a guide to realism. i look at 1-5 for it. after that things get a bit out of hand. so once as a free action or even twice is seeable as VERY proficient. im not saying i am very good at either. just saying loading a crossbow is WAAAAAAAAAY faster than loading a black powder gun of any kind.
and yes you are right they dont fit my world well.

not at all. a crosbow is a sting you pull back on a slide that "locks." i can see that. i like the rule. a gun has powder, a bullet, and a primer. it must be set upright, the poweder poured in, the bullet pushed in, then the whole thing must be compressed with a ramrod. this is something that takes a couple minutes to those who know what theyre doing, 30 seconds to the fastest.

i will concede that that would make guns a one and done weapon for a given combat, so that cannot be. but i will have the time to reload be a full round action, with rapid reload, a standard and with the alchemic a move. thats as nice as ill be, and its a stretch.

the other thing i will do with guns, is make them a simple weapon to fire, but require the exotic proficiency to reload.

i dont want guns to inundate my game, its medieval fantasy. there are aspects of the rennaisance in there, but the gun is already superior to the bow, it doesnt need to be able to be changed as fast as a semi auto clip to make it relevent.

There's not much difference between +1 enhancement bonus (attack and damage), and +1d6 damage. There's slight advantages for each (against higher ACs, enhancement bonus is better, lower ACs the straight damage is better).

The problem is that to make a magical weapon, the weapon must be masterwork. Or rather, it "can" be masterwork.
Since this doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus, a +1 weapon vs a +1d6 damage is the difference between +1 bonus damage or +1d6 bonus damage (since attack bonus is equal).

If the masterwork bonus stacked with the magical enhancement bonus, then there wouldn't be an issue at all.

Armor probably follows the rule for streamlining purposes. Masterwork armor has no bonus that affects AC, and neither do the special enhancement effects. So it must be simply to follow the weapon rules.

this is sort of the point there is a effects as follows rule to the weapon building:

thats really simple as can be! you cant add an effect to a masterwork weapon, so you have to have a MAGIC one as its base, so you are forced to have a +1 to hit and damage on top of your effect.

all we have not posted in the rules book is the fumble deck, i allow casters to cast touch spells without provoking AoO, and i dont role saves on inflict/cure spells.

BUT most important to the game is that as the GM i roll ALL non secret checks on the table. (i even stopped using the gm screen)

to be a rogue is to be a jerk. its the law of the land.

i understand this is not a reenactment of real life, but the rules represent just that, to an extent. just giving perspective...
that being said the rules on free actions is that the GM can limit the number of uses of them to if he deems nessecery. in the case of reloading a pepperbox, i would DEFINATELY require more than a single free action to reload it even with the feat.

that being said, my argument is moot, as i just realized that the gunslinger should be able to reload at least 2 of the barrels as a free action, therefor negating the need for a reload turn, as he would be able to constantly reload what he had just fired...

guess i just dont like the idea of super fast firearms in the fantasy genre. i thought itd be cool, but theyre too modern in useablity. it should take a full action to reload, a standard with rapid reload, and a move with that and alchemical thing to move...

the attacks per round are a description of your chance at creating damage in a round, which yes 5 swings in 6 seconds is a tough one to see, but its a hell of alot more feasable than reloadng a muzzleloading rifle in the blink af an eye.

and i dont think that saying reality has no bearing here, it still does... to some extent.

you can look at certain creatures as titans, ie creatures of immense god like power. the Image of the titans as giants is only one of the many images of them. sometimes they are elemental in form or in the form of monsters.
the best example is the Terrasque. Its already been described as one of the spawns of rovagug, which would contradict greco-roman myth for what a titan is, but when has that stopped anyone in the game, especially designers. back to the point though, the terrasque, the balor, the jabberwocky are all EPIC in power and if not actual titans they are great points from which to start in creating a titan for your own game.
as to the point of the 4th edition titan, i feel thats a lame copout. a titan should be its own creature or idea, or even title given to the uber powered monsters and creations of a certain size, but not advanced giants.

thats a decent summary of all of the divine classes. whether or not its sided against them. the only problem i see is calling the act of devotion to the god "stupid." Remember in fantasy the acts of gods are relatively common and there is ample proof to the existance of the gods, as well as to the power they provide their most dedicated. why is that dumb?
the cleric should have responded with "you have sold your soul to a quick buck in this mortal realm. i hope you are happy in your existance, for without the support of those "taskmasters," it will certainly be short!"

im not sure i agree. the pepper box is 6 barrels. even with the alchemical cartridge and rapid reload, ITS 6 BARRELLS! you cant do anything 6 times even free actions in a given turn. you still have to load each one as a free action. how many free actions do you get in a turn?
also was that thought through? cause the fastest soldiers in the revolutionary and civil wars could reload a rifle for ONE SHOT in like 30 seconds. that would be 5 rounds!