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So, it’s July. Can you tell I’m anxious?!


I have not came across this issue with ferocity and non-lethal damage, until tonight.

I had a group starting a campaign and they were being tracked by some orcs. The orcs tracked through the night, but the party settled in against the snow storm. The following morning, the orcs arrived, though worn from the cold weather and fatigue. I assigned them each 5 non-lethal damage. Once things came to blows, I realized that ferocity and non-lethal do not make any sense together, as others have noticed.

The party's rogue flanked and dropped one of the orcs to -3 with a critical and sneak attack combination. The orc having -3 hit points and 5 non-lethal hurt my brain.

At last, I decided to say that the orc's con score of 11 would allot it an extra 11 points until non-lethal would take effect.

That sounds all well and good, but what is the point in non-lethal for creatures with ferocity?

Scenario Time

Orc stats hit points 9. Con 11

Let's just say that the orc can attain 19 points of non-lethal damage before becoming staggered and 20+ before falling unconscious. As per the RAW, non-lethal damage says that when you have attained your maximum hit points (not current) in non-lethal damage any further non-lethal damage is considered to be lethal damage, instead. So, if you are punching the orc and he reached 9 he is fine because of ferocity, according to RAI. Though, every non-lethal damage attained thereafter is lethal instead?

Have any of the threads on the topic cleared this up?


Shall those be path abilities, or shall they be new feats, that everyone can take, once they have achieved mythicdom?


Phasics wrote:

mmmm now there's something I hadn't considered before a class like Dragon Disciple that grants a bunch of permanent ability bonus increases is going to net you more mythic points.

mmm gives new value to class bonuses to ability scores

Hence, my new ABILITY SCORE suggestion/proposal/idea


Hmm... Me wonders...

The Mythic Path's add their own depth to characters, except for the feats which seem to directly impact pre-exisitng feats. So, what if, the mythic point pool were not drawn from an existing ability score but discerned from a new set of scores.

To explain, as we have it set up, you can sync your wellspring for Mythic Powers to an existing Ability Score Modifier. Well, let's move away from that and create a knew place for this pool to be drawn from, shall we?

So, when your character ascends to Mythicdom, you gain your MYTHIC ABILITY or whatever you want to call it. So, I see fit to picking three types of Abilities.

PHYSICAL
MENTAL
SPIRITUAL

So, you achieve this NEW ability and it starts at 10, with a similar modifier bonus structure as other Ability Scores have. And this NEW ability's modifier is where you draw your wellspring from, instead of your major ability score.

What does this do for MAD versus SAD. Well, now your boost for Mythic Powers are tied to an entirely separate Ability, and if you so choose to use the tier advancements for pre-exisitng ability scores, so be it and you will face the drawback of having a lower pool of mythic powers to draw from, you see?

So, why have three different categories, well besides flavor, perhaps this new venue will open up a new list of feats that can only be taken if you were using, let's say PHYSICAL. Furthermore, path abilities may entertain, not having a tier dependency for taking them, but a particular ABILITY dependency, so a path ability may read something like this,

Mighty Damage(Ex):Damage you deal during this round is not subject to damage reductions or energy resistances,but you must expend one use of mythic power to do so.Your mythic powers must be drawn from the PHYSICAL Ability to take this path ability.

Obviously, my path ability is not very encompassing for the game as a whole, but my example should get my point across.

In conclusion, the SAD are not getting richer, and the MAD stand a chance against SAD based classes when making the ascension to Mythicdom.
Drowlord007 Yesterday, 07:10 PM | Flag |
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So, you achieve this NEW ability and it starts at 10, with a similar modifier bonus structure as other Ability Scores have. And this NEW ability's modifier is where you draw your wellspring from, instead of your major ability score.

________________________________________________________________________

I started thinking about how low the pool would be if it started out at ten. Perhaps there could be an encompassment of what others have already said here in this thread. I know if a character had had a stat that was an 18(+4) that they would start off with a 5 Mythic Points. Hmm...

Using my proposed method they would be starting out with 1 Mythic Point at tier 1. Unless they used their first path ability towards the Extra Mythic Power. In which case they would start with three.

So, my amendment to this problem is as follows. At each mythic tier advancement. So, I think it should be 1. Each level you go up +1 for each under the Mythic Power path you have chosen, PHYSICAL,MENTAL, SPIRITUAL.(MORE ON THIS IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT) And, as is already written you would still be able to boost an Ability score by two every other tier. So, in effect, if you never put your +2 toward your Mythic Ability Score it will stand at 20(+5) at tier 10.

Second amendment, the three Mythic Abilities I chose before could also play a role in the automatic +1 per level. If it were like this...

PHYSICAL - Str. Dex. Con.
MENTAL - INT. WIS. CHA.
SPIRITUAL - ANY THREE PRIOR ABILITIES i.e. A combination of the original six.

So, at each level, your one time selected Mythic Ability, from which you draw your mythic pool, determines which abilities all receive the every tier advancement +1. So, in effect, a Fighter who chooses PHYSICAL will at first tier gain +1 to all physical stats and at second tier another +1 to all physical stats for an allotted advancement of +2. Then for the second tier pre-exisiting Ability Score increase of +2, you could choose to add this to any one of your seven Ability scores. If you decide to add to your Mythic Ability Score, your Str. Dex. Con. do not gain the bonus. So, your total Mythic Ability stat would be 14(+2).

To conclude, my proposal is one that could help balance this system, yet it does weaken the potential already in existence.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 Yesterday, 09:41 PM | Flag |
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Graypelt

Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.
Drowlord007 Yesterday, 10:37 PM | Flag |
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SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.

Yeah, that seems plausible. I don't like the name spiritual anymore anyways.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 12:14 AM | Flag |
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Graypelt

I think Spiritual is actually a pretty good name. Especially when grouped with Physical and Mental.

Maybe Fundamental? Fundaphysical? Social doesn't really work, since it's kind of already incorporated in Mental, and isn't half physical or something.

Hmmm.....

SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.

__________________________________________________________________________

Okay, so, I dreamed up...

Following your idea of picking two abilities...What if, perchance. When you picked the SPIRITUAl, it let you pick two other and the third plus one when straight into your SPIRITUAL ability score. So, for instance...

I pick Strength and Wisdom for my Monk, by selecting the SPIRITUAL Ability. Every time I tier up I will get my +1 in Str. and Wis. and also to the Spiritual ability. That way you can really head for more mythic points, the drawback being that you only get two of your prior ability scores increased. Yeah?

You like?


SmiloDan wrote:
Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.

__________________________________________________________________________

Okay, so, I dreamed up...

Following your idea of picking two abilities...What if, perchance. When you picked the SPIRITUAl, it let you pick two other and the third plus one when straight into your SPIRITUAL ability score. So, for instance...

I pick Strength and Wisdom for my Monk, by selecting the SPIRITUAL Ability. Every time I tier up I will get my +1 in Str. and Wis. and also to the Spiritual ability. That way you can really head for more mythic points, the drawback being that you only get two of your prior ability scores increased. Yeah?

You like?


Epic Meepo wrote:
Simulacrum is limited by both "levels or HD," not just HD. Also, the duplicate has only half the original's "levels or HD." In this context, "level" has to be referring to "character level." But I seem to recall Jason stating that a creature's mythic tiers are added to its class levels when determining its effective character level. So simulacrum is a non-issue: mythic tiers increase effective character level, and simulacrum is limited by character level as well as HD.

__________________________________________________________________________

I found where it says that you can add the Mythic Monster's mythic rating to its existing CR when determining how it will stand against non-mythic PCs. Anyways, could you show where it says that you adjust level based on tiers for mythic player characters? It makes sense I am just having trouble scanning the book.


SmiloDan wrote:
Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.

Yeah, that seems plausible. I don't like the name spiritual anymore anyways.


Look at my Proposal in the SAD versus MAD thread!


So, you achieve this NEW ability and it starts at 10, with a similar modifier bonus structure as other Ability Scores have. And this NEW ability's modifier is where you draw your wellspring from, instead of your major ability score.

________________________________________________________________________

I started thinking about how low the pool would be if it started out at ten. Perhaps there could be an encompassment of what others have already said here in this thread. I know if a character had had a stat that was an 18(+4) that they would start off with a 5 Mythic Points. Hmm...

Using my proposed method they would be starting out with 1 Mythic Point at tier 1. Unless they used their first path ability towards the Extra Mythic Power. In which case they would start with three.

So, my amendment to this problem is as follows. At each mythic tier advancement. So, I think it should be 1. Each level you go up +1 for each under the Mythic Power path you have chosen, PHYSICAL,MENTAL, SPIRITUAL.(MORE ON THIS IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT) And, as is already written you would still be able to boost an Ability score by two every other tier. So, in effect, if you never put your +2 toward your Mythic Ability Score it will stand at 20(+5) at tier 10.

Second amendment, the three Mythic Abilities I chose before could also play a role in the automatic +1 per level. If it were like this...

PHYSICAL - Str. Dex. Con.
MENTAL - INT. WIS. CHA.
SPIRITUAL - ANY THREE PRIOR ABILITIES i.e. A combination of the original six.

So, at each level, your one time selected Mythic Ability, from which you draw your mythic pool, determines which abilities all receive the every tier advancement +1. So, in effect, a Fighter who chooses PHYSICAL will at first tier gain +1 to all physical stats and at second tier another +1 to all physical stats for an allotted advancement of +2. Then for the second tier pre-exisiting Ability Score increase of +2, you could choose to add this to any one of your seven Ability scores. If you decide to add to your Mythic Ability Score, your Str. Dex. Con. do not gain the bonus. So, your total Mythic Ability stat would be 14(+2).

To conclude, my proposal is one that could help balance this system, yet it does weaken the potential already in existence.


Hmm... Me wonders...

The Mythic Path's add their own depth to characters, except for the feats which seem to directly impact pre-exisitng feats. So, what if, the mythic point pool were not drawn from an existing ability score but discerned from a new set of scores.

To explain, as we have it set up, you can sync your wellspring for Mythic Powers to an existing Ability Score Modifier. Well, let's move away from that and create a knew place for this pool to be drawn from, shall we?

So, when your character ascends to Mythicdom, you gain your MYTHIC ABILITY or whatever you want to call it. So, I see fit to picking three types of Abilities.

PHYSICAL
MENTAL
SPIRITUAL

So, you achieve this NEW ability and it starts at 10, with a similar modifier bonus structure as other Ability Scores have. And this NEW ability's modifier is where you draw your wellspring from, instead of your major ability score.

What does this do for MAD versus SAD. Well, now your boost for Mythic Powers are tied to an entirely separate Ability, and if you so choose to use the tier advancements for pre-exisitng ability scores, so be it and you will face the drawback of having a lower pool of mythic powers to draw from, you see?

So, why have three different categories, well besides flavor, perhaps this new venue will open up a new list of feats that can only be taken if you were using, let's say PHYSICAL. Furthermore, path abilities may entertain, not having a tier dependency for taking them, but a particular ABILITY dependency, so a path ability may read something like this,

Mighty Damage(Ex):Damage you deal during this round is not subject to damage reductions or energy resistances,but you must expend one use of mythic power to do so.Your mythic powers must be drawn from the PHYSICAL Ability to take this path ability.

Obviously, my path ability is not very encompassing for the game as a whole, but my example should get my point across.

In conclusion, the SAD are not getting richer, and the MAD stand a chance against SAD based classes when making the ascension to Mythicdom.


Diego Rossi wrote:

As far as I know it there is nothing that will stop a spellcaster with the appropriate spell to create a simulacrum of a mythic character or creature. As tiers aren't levels or HD they don't affect at all what you can duplicate and, in theory, the simulacrum mythic tiers wouldn't be halved.

From my point of view this is a potentially serious problem. The best solution seem to add a note about the simulacrum spell in the mythic rules, specifying that it is not possible to duplicate the mythic tiers with that spell.

Well, me oh my! I never looked at this spell. There would be quite the complication. Yeah. Sadly a revision of the text would be needed to encompass halving the mythic tier as well. At any rate, this is a 7th level spell. So, at that point in the game this may not be too overpowered.


As I see it laid out,

You become Mythic, this adds exceptional abilities with limited choice in the existence as they stand.

Then you choose your path, hurray! You gain access to features that may further your class' features. Which is what I believe everyone is looking for when they see these paths and attacks.

You then gain access to feats that do directly complement existing feats.

THIS THREAD ON - MINIMAL CLASS SUPPORT has brought me to two assumptions.

A - The powers that be have purposefully kept Class Specific feats and/or Mythic Path's Paths from adding to class features because it becomes to difficult to create something for every single class/archetype.

B - What the Mythic addition has provided is a way for characters to have depth from a different angle. I think what people look for immediately is optimization, hence the search or want for class based ascensions; however, it must be noted that optimization is not always key to functional fun or success. For example, you may take a Race that interest you, and that character may pursue a career in some class that he is ill suited for but it adds to the characters versatility.

In conclusion,

Stop trying to make Pathfinder a game where numbers rule over game play, but rather a place where imagination and characterization bloom. Plus, with all the mythical defenses, class supported features would simply blow the power level of mythic tiered characters through the roof, making challenges for them difficult.


So imagine this party, a bunch of characters that are a plant race, created as per the Advance Race Guide. Okay, they all become mythic and take the Hierophant Mythic Path, and then decide that the fist path ability they will take is Plantbringer. Uh-oh!

You have upon you a party with fast healing and preferable environment, provided they are already in a plant filled place. What if they're Druids? Ultimate power may be at hand!

Plantbringer, among other Paths provide extreme power, with little drawbacks. I mean, I like "epic" or "mythic" powers to be powerful but this may be too much power.


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Here we go, these are not in the original text and they do wonders. My original feelings about these flaws was, "oh wait, are these that bad?" So, now that some more have become available, they definitely add to the "drama and theater," the book originally speaks toward.

I don't really have an particular one to pick on or praise. They should just all be added to the list. Diversity is the spirit of this game, and none seem to destroy any pre-existing synergies.


Dear Monkeygod,

I like your thinking. Your ideas do wonders for adding to the "mythic" or "epic" quality, I think we're all looking for here. At any rate, I see a problem with some of your fat dump ideas for the mythic pool points. I don't like the game to get quickly broken, so things like four points, for a well worth it effect, may be short sighted. Especially, because these acts could potentially bankrupt your character too early.

A similar problem keeps occurring in my campaign, devoid of mythic rules, where my Paladin, keeps dumping all of his lay on hand abilities early. He uses the Radiant Charge feat, from the Ultimate Magic, to add damage die to his rolls. It is awesome for taking out the big bad, but no so awesome when he misses and cannot heal his friends.

I feel that Pathfinder is already let up to too much chance, we need not add more potential for chaos.


Particular to the Trickster Mythic Path, I am finding the three starting Trickster Attacks minimally impressive. For example, My Rogue with archetypes in Knife Master and Scout can easily accomplish the Trickster Attack - Deadly Throw - through class features and feats,except that he can't gain an additional attack roll with some boost to hit based on tier. What if I added a monk level to my character and he had the feat perfect strike, which similarly allows for the extra attack roll addition, I guess I would get three rolls?

This particular can be seen as a mounting problem with several other types of pre-existing archetypes and class functions as well as feats. In general compared to other Mythic Path's and their Specific Attacks, some are well worth it and quite"epic," whereas others are already able to be accomplished and only give a slight inclination towards taking them.

An example that occurs with a Racial Trait and a Feat may be that having Ferocity as an Orc makes taking the Feat, Diehard, difficult, because you may only want to take the feat in order to achieve access to prerequisited feats such as Deathless Initiate. That being said, these type of incongruities already existed prior to this Mythic introduction and it would be appreciated if they were to be eradicated, by means of careful observations.

My hopes are that there will be more details added to each feature, just in case there is a problem similar to the one that I have found.