Doresh's page

The bolded parts are suggestions intended to get you in the ballpark of where the final CR is gonna most likely be. But regardless of how you add levels to a creature, when you're done, you should double check against Table 1–1 to see if the final result's hp, AC, attacks, damage, saves, and ability DCs are more or less in line. If they're not, change the CR manually as needed to make the best fit, regardless of what the math would suggest.

For the most part, NPC classes are so much less powerful than the PC classes that, indeed, they're never considered key.

But remember, once total class level from ANY class equals the monster's original CR, they always become key.

And as for goblins and bugbears... note that goblins have zero racial HD and bugbears actually have 3 racial HD, so the difference there is a bit more than you might think.

Good, that's what I was suspecting, since this makes the CR gauging closer to how humanoid NPCs do it, with more of a "delay" for non-keyed classes and leaving the NPC/non-keyed-classed creature a few steps behind a PC/keyed-classes.

And I chose the example because things might get wonky between high-level warriors, with the goblin out-CR-ing the bugbear after level 10ish if warrior never becomes keyed for the bugbear.
Then again, high-level NPC classes are a bit wonky anyways, so I should check out table 1-1 more ^_^

Here's something that has been bugging me lately and which I don't think has an official answer yet:

Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.

How do the bolded sentences interact? Can an NPC class be "treated" as a key class if a monster has enough levels in that class, or will NPC classes never increase the CR by more than 1 per 2 levels?

The wording seems to lean towards the latter, but this interpretation can create odd discrepancies, as two humanoids with the same amount of NPC class levels will have wildy different CRs if one of them has even a single racial HD (say a bugbear and a goblin).

There seems to be something off about the Wood Giant (p. 132) - besides the longbow and skill ranks: Its ranged attack bonuses for the longbow seems too low. Let's see:

+6 (BAB) +5 (DEX) -1 (Size) +1 (Masterwork) = +11

So the Wood Giant should have a slightly higher ranged attack bonus:

Ranged mwk composite longbow +11/+11/+6 (2d6+5/×3)

I "fluff" the better accuracy in flurry in this way: the number of attacks in a flurry are actually far more than the ones rolled, and so many that are very likely to land, but less effective.

To represent this, the monk has full BAB in flurry (as rules state). In game terms this rain of blows is represented by such full BAB flurry.

Easy :)

That's one of my theories, too. The other one can be summed up in one word:

Bullet Time! (Or Wuxia if you want)

(Okay, those were two...)

Oh, right. In that case, I should stick with those +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments (which is basically like applying the Elite Array improvements again) ...

Oh, yeah, makes sense that way ;)

Mmh... has anyone ever applied the Advanced Creature template to a NPC to balance out his higher-than-normal scores?

I guess their normal BAB is 3/4 to discourage them from using non-monk weapons. As for normal unarmed attacks, I guess it's because of... ki?
Or maybe the Flurry of Blows gets full BAB because of the rapid-fire effect or because the enemy gets confused...

I've some questions regarding a monster without official Pathfinder-stats (the Azlanti Carrion Beetle) and a monster variant from the Almanach of Classic Monsters (the Lizardking).

1. Would you tunr the Carrion Beetle into a Magical Beast? I know they are Vermin in 3.5, but it just doesn't feel right: they have intelligence, and they have a hypnotic carapace that used to fire rainbowy death on enemies. And it generally seems to be a artifically created "warmachine". And even if not, all those magical abilities and the high intelligence sound definitely more like Magical Beast.

2. What's the CR for a Lizardking? It's nowhere in the Almanach. I tried to check this nice "HD-CR"-Table for the Bestiary, but that didn't work for the Flinds, either. D20pfsrd suggests a CR of 3, but that sounds a bit low considering a HD boost from 2 to 5 and a size increase.

And imagine the horror of a Rogue 5/ Wizard 5/ Arcane Trickster 10 using form of the dragon III:

1 bite 2d8 plus 16d6 sneak (8d6 increased in size two times)
+2 claws 2d6 plus 16d6 sneak
+2 wings 1d8 plus 16d6 sneak
+1 tail 2d6 plus 16d6 sneak

Are there Dragon Ninja?!

And I'd say the size system is easy to use first and realistic second (or worse).
Sneak damage comes from the rogue attack weak spots in the enemy's anatomy. It's a bit hard to hit those spots if you're teeth are bigger than your target's head...

I'm wondering why NPCs from Adventure Modules (like Namdrin Quinn from "Carnival of Tears" or Merlokrep from "Throne of the Kobold King") have so high ability scores in general. Whenever I calculate their point costs (minus bonuses from equipment, race and level, of course), I usually end up with a total cost of 25+!

Is the typical Pathfinder Adventure Module made for Epic Fantasy? Where these scores simply rolled? Or are they so high in purpose to give the party a challenge should they fight the NPC in question?

Yeah, thanks for the help, guys!

So there are ways to make a flaming sword even more "flamy" (I guess the whole weapon will be on fire, not just the blade), and I think even a burning skeleton with a frost weapon might make sense: first the weapon freezes your limb, then the fire burns it. The sudden shift in temperature will then make it explode XD !

(And ice is probably the last kind of damage you'd expect from a skeleton on fire...)

Yeah, it can get ridiculous if you use too many damage sources, but a Multi-Faming weapon sounds fine - especially for giants, since that one +1W6 fire damage doesn't increase with size.

p. 5, Lizardfolk: Swim should be +9 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +1 Str, +8 swim speed, -4 armour check penalty).

Not quite: The heavy wooden shield as an armour check penalty of only -2, and lizardfolk don't carry anything else that could give a penalty. And swim is NOT a class skill for humanoids. They might have swim speed, but that doesn't make swim a class skill (the +8 bonus is already enough). They might get it as a class skill if they had the Aquatic subtype, but lizardfolk aren't that amphibian. Swamps aren't that good swimming places, and the main reason they have swim speed is because of their tail.

So the old value of +8 is correct: +1 rank, +1 Str, +8 swim speed, -2 armour check penalty

I've just wondered: what happens if a burning skeleton wields a flaming weapon? Does the 1D6 fire damage from both "sources" add up to 2D6, or is it still just 1D6 (since it can't be any more "flamy")?
Or even more confusing: what if that burning skeleton is wielding a frost weapon? Will the weapon deal both fire and ice damage? Do they cancel each other out? Can you only use one element per round?

I've recently finished my personal Pathfinder-conversions of the encounters in D0 and D1.5 (for the great Kobold King saga - Merlokrep 4 president XD ! ).

Some conversion were a bit tricky, but I solved them elegantly: the chariot beetle has been turned into a Magical Beast (since it has magical abilities and wouldn't benefit from the mindless Vermin traits anyways), and Pinch-Pinch is currently "just" a normal scorpion (luckily, it has the same amount of HD as a normal companion). And then there's this "Advanced Megaraptor Skeleton"...

First, there are two ways to create the Megaraptor out of a Deinonychus: either improve the HD or add templates. Both are more or less equal, but the skeleton template is one of those templates that are heavily based on HD. Just treating the Megaraptor as an "Advanced Giant Deinonychus" would create a skeleton that's A LOT more powerful than its puny CR would suggest.

To keep it balanced, I'd take the more complex "HD-Improvement" route. But then there's still the other Advanced template. The whole name of this undead creature can be interpreted in 2 ways:

1. (Advanced Megaraptor) Skeleton

2. Advanced (Megaraptor Skeleton)

The first doesn't look quite right. It'll boost the final creature's abilities without influencing the CR. The second even gives a nice HP boost, taking more advantage of the template.

Of course, you could also make a Deinonychus skeleton which is then turned into a twice-Advanced, Giant creature. Sounds rather fair - especially if you want to create a Velociraptor skeleton, which is then treated like a Deinonychus skeleton with the Young template. Otherwise, you'd just make a weak Deinonychus skeleton that has still the same CR as a normal one.
Sadly, I don't really know how to handle the WIS and CHA scores of this creature. Should I ignore the increases from the first Advanced and the Giant template because those theoretically took place before the creature being turned into a skeleton (even though I applied it afterwards for the proper CR value)?

How would you do it?

Since my eidolon possesses only one type of attack, does the pincers that are naturally secondary, become primary?

Yes. That's what creatures get that specialize in unorthodox attack types ;)

Oh, and if that might come up: the eidolon won't deal 1.5 times its STR bonus. That's only for the extremely impaired creatures that can't perform Full-Attack because they can only attack once.

"Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attack is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet"

The reach applies to just one pincer or all four? Or just one pair?

For the sake of symmetry, I'd say yes. "Attack" seems to refer to a specific attack type. The 4 pincers are basically a single attack. The number of pincers is only important to determine how often it can strike during a Full-Attack.

Asura Cryin?

hehe

Almost. I thought the "original" name was easy enough to guess ;-)

For my first d20 monster ever, I chose something crazy. Soo, here's what happens if you modify an Iron Golem, pick some Anime influences and adapt all that into a typical Fantasy setting:

-----------------------------------

Walking Armor Maduke CR 15

XP 51,200

N Gargantuan construct

Init –2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +0

DEFENSE

AC 31, touch 4, flat-footed 31 (–2 Dex, +27 natural, –4 size)
or
AC 33, touch 4, flat-footed 33 (–2 Dex, +27 natural, +2 shield, –4 size)

hp 170 (20d10+60)

Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +6

DR 15/adamantine; Immune construct traits, magic

OFFENSE

Speed 20 ft.

Melee 2 slams +35 (2d10+19) or +1 flaming longsword +36/+31/+26/+21

Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.

Special Attacks breath weapon (120-ft. line, 20d6 fire damage, DC 20 half, usable every 1d4 rounds)

STATISTICS

Str 48, Dex 7, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1

Base Atk +20; CMB +43; CMD 51

ECOLOGY

Environment any

Organization solitary or gang (2–4)

Treasure none (maybe the sword and the shield, but they are too big for medium creatures anyway XD )

Immunity to Magic (Ex) A Walking Armor is immune to spells or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance. Certain spells and effects function differently against it, as noted below.

* A magical attack that deals electricity damage slows a Walking Armor (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.
* A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. A Walking Armor gets no saving throw against fire effects.
* A Walking Armor is affected normally by rust attacks, such as those of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell.

-----------------------------------

Walking Armors (also known a "Maduke" since that name is carved in Azlanti on most found constructs of that type) are an especially rare kind of Iron Golem: towering giants with a height of around 48 ft. that can breath a strangely solid line of fire. Most Madukes also carry a large shield and a sword that's constantly ablaze (which might increase the CR a bit, since this sword gives quite a boost of damage).

From what pathfinder chroniclers could find in old Azlanti ruins, these golems where created by the ancient Azlanti (probably with a bit of Aboleth help). Old texts tell that they were mainly used in a war against a foe not native to Golarion. Connections between this enemy and the Silver Mount of Numeria might be possible, but are still highly speculative.

Most of these golems where destroyed along with Azlant (or where they salvaged by Aboleth?), but some do still exist in some Azlant ruins, attacking everything that might pose a threat.

Strangely, all the documents found referred to these golems as a piece of "armor", and studies on inactive Madukes revealed that they have some kind of chair inside their torso, often with a skeleton sitting inside...

Here's a quick question: If you have a monster PC, does that monster get this +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, –2 ability score bonus a normal monster with PC class levels would get?

So a party of 7th level characters defeating a CR 7 encounter (APL +0. so "average") using medium progression can expect to find 2,600 gp worth of treasure (assuming the monsters involved have standard treasure).

And if they don't all have the same treasure value? What am I going to do then? That's my big problem.

NPCs are way easier here: just look up on the NPC treasure table, add it all up and bingo!

I was just thinking: why not go to this "Average Treasure per Encounter"-table, treat the monster's CR as APL and then choose the amount of treasure? That way, a creature will always yield the same amount of treasure no matter how strong the party is - just like a NPC. That way, it'll be easier to determine the total treasure of creatures with widly different treasure values (like 2 "Double" and 3x "Standard"). If the total value is above/below the average treasure per encounter, you can fix that easily with future encounters.

Doresh wrote:

cwslyclgh wrote:

table 12-5 is per encounter, not per creature

That's the funny part: the bestiary says "“Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter."

Sounds like that's for every single creature Oo

Bolded for emphasis.

The pre-bold part still talks about "the creature's treasure", not about multiple creatures.

table 12-5 is per encounter, not per creature

That's the funny part: the bestiary says "“Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter."

Sounds like that's for every single creature Oo

James Jacobs wrote:

A classic last-minute artwork-necessitated change that causes an unintended error, unfortunately.

Wait.....James.....are you causing intentional errors that we don't know about yet?

I think that's called an Easter Egg ^^

I'm slightly irritated by the bestiary's treasure rules: the treasure of NPCs depends on their CR, but monsters and other creatures without a class have their treasure being decided by the party's average level.

Soo... why does monsters get more treasure as time goes on, even though the monster itself doesn't get stronger? What's even stranger is that every monster with "Standard" treasure gives the party as much gold as a whole encounter for their average level is supposed to give. And that's for EACH monster.

By this rule, a simple barghest (CR 4) would give a party with APL 4 1,150 gp. Fast forward to the same group with APL 8, and the next barghest has 3,350 gp. But since the barghest isn's scary any more, let's give him 3 buddies - increasing the treasure to 13,400 gp. That's enough for 4 encounters!

I presume I'm just supposed to spread the 3,350 gp among all of the barghest. But what happens if a creature with "Double" treasure joins the mix? How will that affect this encounter's treasure? Do I just pick the biggest treasure, in this case, "Double"?

Pincers are primary attacks, and they are such for the glabrezu, as are its 2 claws and its bite.

I'm quite positive they're not. Ye olde natural attack table lists them as secondary - and they could only deal 2d8 damage if the Glabrezu was gargantuan. Okay, there might be creatures whose attack might be treated a few categories bigger - and this demons has HUGE pincers - but that doesn't quite explain why its pincers are primary attacks. If this is some kind of unique feature of this demon, it should be noted somewhere (like the bite attack of dragons).

Well part of that comes from the +1 from infuse weapon. All attacks have a +1 bonus. Not sure where they other one comes from, could be an error. Could be an error unless im missing something.

The description clearly states that the Marilith has to "wield" the weapons. She's basically infusing every "weapon" not native to her body with sweet demonic energy. Besides, her slam attacks don't get the +1 damage bonus the longswords receive.

Hello, everyone!

After resisting the mighty d20 for quite some time, Pathfinder finally managed to convert me ^^

So anyways: I'm currently studying the bestiary, and I have a few questions regarding some demons:

1. Does a Nabasu keeps his growth points when maturing? I think yes, because a former monster with those points - the Bargehst - specifically mentions that it'll lose its points when upgrading

2. I'm slightly confused about the Glabrezu's pincers: they are more powerful than ordinary huge pincers (without the Glabrezu having a feat like "Improved Natural Attack"), and they they seem to be primary attacks, despite the fact that the Glabrezu also has claws and a bite attack. So are these "pincers" entirely unique weapons for him?

3. Marilith's stats make me scratch my head: Her normal attack bonus would be +16 (BAB) -1 (Size) +7 (Str) = +22. Add in her +1 longswords and her Weapon Focus, and you have +24. That's fine so far. But why does she treat her natural weapons like the +2 bonus from her weapons apply to them? Her tail slap and slams are both too high Oo !