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So after GenCon Jason Bulmahn Director of Game Design posted a thread where one of the things said was "Alchemists can use Quick Alchemy for any alchemical item in their formula book."

Helps a little bit and with mutagens even though it still takes 2 actions (1 to make and 1 to drink) you can have the effect instantly take hold.

Alchemist still need some love but I wonder if higher level bombs exist and were just held off from the play test so they could examine how well the alchemist works.

Mutagen at level 5 last a minute with the next round onset, kind of like having to rage but it happens next turn again though when +2 weapons are still rare

the hour long elixir I lumped in with it as well changes your damage to 1d6 for an hour and is level 1 which lets you do 3d6+str at level 5

level 7 you get 3d8 + 3 ongoing damage fire bombs

level 9 you get 10 minute mutagen and if you take feral mutagen don't need the elixir to increase die type anymore although this is when you need to use it before hand to get the boost if you don't grab fast onset at level 6 (mutagens do indeed have the elixir trait)

Still it feels like the class needs some love but I feel that way about any sorc who goes for divine or occult spells.

OK so at some point I thought we were arguing you can use natural ambition to take a class feat for your multiclass(which would be a no because your class doesn't change).

Now I'm thinking the argument is You take Natural Ambition to take a level 1 class feat which you then use to take an archetype feat using those rules. A VERY strict reading of the rules would say..yes but I'd say it's meant for a level 1 feet meaning it acts as if it was a level 1 feet you were retraining which wouldn't allow it to be used this way

We're supposed to break the game right? That's what a play test is for.

I do agree Bombs are on the weak side but that's one part of the class and they do extra die damage without needing a weapon at the levels you get them and with ranged attacks in general you're getting the same damage out of them so it's like you've found 2 +1 weapons at level 3, which can be used 8 times a day.

Alchemist has the problem of being weaker then other classes at some levels and being on par with them without needing items at others IF you only look at bombs.

Level 5 you get to pretend to have +2 unarmed weapon with an elixir that last an hour making it 1d6 which is the best an agile weapon can do..It doesn't make it lethal damage according to the rules which isn't actually a problem as far as I can tell since not even undead seem to immune to it anymore.

This is a lot of prep to be doing the same damage as others but like I said it's without being allocated one of the few high level items in the party.

Oh yeah and debilitating bomb only has one effect I'd care about really and thats the dazzled because I can just make lightning bombs that make em flat footed and i can double up on those easily enough. By the time you get the greater debilitating bomb you have 5 points to use for it for free(I'd argue 10 at this point since you're int is 20 and cha could still be 10)

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Apophenia wrote:
JDLPF wrote:

The rules on p. 279 state "once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites."

I'm pretty sure that this means you can take one of the Archetype traited feats (in this chapter) as a class feat. So you could take a Fighter Archetype feat, not any Fighter feat.

Although I might be wrong but that is how I read it.

Look below the part you quoted. He says as much.
JDLPF wrote:
Natural Ambition grants a 1st level class feat. You can select any feat from your archetype in place of a class feat. Ergo, you can select an archetype feat in place of a 1st level class feat...

you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat, I think this means to say you can take other archetype feats not just any feat from the class otherwise Advanced Maneuver is pointless and weaker then just selecting a feet you would meet the prereq of.

- 8 "free" alchemical items at the cost of your RP you got(this is in comparison to people saying it shouldn't cost RP and RP wouldn't help alch much). This goes to 10 if you use your level 1 point as well which can be applied to elixirs that don't cost you more points to use aka you can heal yourself 10d6 damage at level 1 or more if you're lucky with your roles.

- The Quick Alchemy use feats show up at level 6 and would still technically be accessible with 0 RP if you don't fail your check but as far as I could tell there isn't much use for RP outside of spell casters, there's a few bonuses but not a lot so just save a couple points for these abilities if you want and use the rest for preparations. And at level 9 you gain 1/2 your level for use in quick alchemy anyways so now you could now make 28 alchemical bombs at the start of the day doing 3x damage and whatever feats you've taken in addition to having a few enhanced ones(obviously you'd save more points for quick alchemy).

-Poisons DC is only 1 or 2 lower at most levels and only at level 12 do spell casters become expert while an Alchemist can take a class feat to allow it to use your class DC(if made using advanced alchemy) at level 8 and poisons are an additional damage thing that you could pass around to other people(doesn't take RP) and mostly only useful for before combat but I don't see anything regarding a time limit on how long it's useful after application but that's probably just an oversight.

I'm not really trying to say Alch is good compared to other classes but a lot of what was being said here is looking at things one sided.

A fighter looks at a wizard/sorc and wonders why he can't do so much damage(with one attack).

A wizard/sorc looks at a fighter and wonders why he can't do as much damage(in one round)

Dekalinder wrote:
I mean, when the Bard has better Heightening than the sorc you know someone on the design board hates the class

It is weird that Sorc doesn't get the ability to Heighten as many spells as Bard but that might have been a choice for when you're going arcane/primal your damage options for spells it much broader than as a Bard.

As for which is a better blaster your Sorc can choose a couple different options like if you choose to have flaming sphere and made it one of your heightened spells makes it do 4d6 damage at level 3 which is 2 less than your fireball but if it's one tough target you're likely to do 8d6 or 12d6 after 3 rounds while fireball requires you to carefully aim to not kill your allies and if things are going badly you might even get up to more depending on how badly things are going.

If I was playing a wizard I'd probably take fireball + flaming sphere and then i'd have the option to cast either twice but not both while a Sorc could choose either option 3 times and I'm sure there's much better examples of where Sorc might shine while Wizard is stuck with spells that are too dangerous to use and end up casting a cantrip.

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A couple things about Alchemist that is being missed i think:

- If Alchemist items didn't need resonance you wouldn't have cha most likely so you get up to 4 "free" resonance for your alchemist items.

- When you create items for the day you get 2 for elixirs/bombs/poison and you can create up to 10 in the beginning that don't cost you resonance later(for elixirs). With this at level 4 your healing is better per resonance on yourself which drops at level 5 and at 8th+ you can heal yourself more per point.

- You can try to create an alchemist item with no resonance using quick alchemy and still use it if it's an elixir.

- With up to 10 free bombs a day the cleric gets 4 uses compared to your 10 and they have to use 2 actions per cast so no doing 2 attacks in 1 turn.

- If you decide to focus on mutagen damage instead at low level you have LOTS of healing and an elixir that makes your unarmed deal 1d6 for 1 hour

- When you get access to mutagen that is the first level you should be capable of finding +2 weapons and you have a mutagen that makes you have equivalent of +2 for 1 minute.

- You CAN create MUTAGENS with ADVANCED ALCHEMY if it's at the beginning of the day. Also giving mutagens to your monk or animal barbarian is quite strong as well if they haven't gotten an equivalent weapon yet.

- If you get prepared before combat you can have poisons prepared to apply to weapons that could potentially add quite a bit of damage if combat doesn't end immediately.

- Bottled lightning and Tanglefoot bags seem to be useful even at higher levels for the ability to make someone flatfooted or entangled. I don't think this is worth the trade off but the chance to hit on your 2nd attack goes down quite a bit if they're your level or higher anyways.

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The advantage of half-orc/half-elf is that you get those 2 free assignments that can go along with low-light and 2 hp or low-light and +5 foot movement. At least those 2 are the most mechanically powerful and the half-elf one is equal to a general feat that gives +5 foot movement and the 2 hp is like half of toughness at low level.

The Half-orc Ancestry feats don't seem that good but neither is half-elves but elves have some decent ones like gaining another +5 foot of movement could be fun. Anyone planning on playing a half-elf with 35 foot movement at level 1 and 40 at level 3, even more if you go barb or monk?

Perhaps half-orc and half-elf should get a choice of 2 of the weaker ancestry feats as well to balance it out a bit since they're using the ancestry feat to be like elves or orcs(which are similar to dwarves which we can actually play).

Just realized half-elf over an elf gets 2 more hp in addition to not losing con which is potentially 2 more hp at every level..

I don't think this will let you take a feat for a class your multiclassing to according to the wording of the rules. Multiclassing doesn't make you a fighter in the game it just gets you proficiency in armor and weapons.

If it worked like that at 3rd level you could take Ancestral Paragon and get a level 1 feat allowing you to have 2 level 1 feats from 2 different classes and at level 4 still take your normal feat or grab a 2nd level feat from fighter with Basic Maneuver.

For example... If you could use Natural Ambition to do this you could have a level 4 Wizard multiclassing to Fighter with: a school specialization or a level 1 Wizard feat, Proficiency in weapons and armor, a level 1 Fighter feat (Point Blank Shot feels like the best choice for a Wizard to me), a level 4 feat in Wizard/level 1 or 2 feat from Fighter.

Did anyone have a problem with the advanced race guide options? I never had anyone in my groups think it was wierd and often they would use them to their advantage all the time.

Heritage feats are just like these and maybe you never liked those either but even if heritage feats were limited to half-elf and half-orc and the like ancestry feats have the same problem that heritage feats have, not all goblins can take the goblin get all the feats and one might not take something till level 10 that you would have taken at level 1.

And to the whole ancestral paragon feat it is just trying to avoid you taking a feat you can't take till level 5.

It is odd but it would allow you to retrain your level 6 feat for if or if you multiclassed into rogue you could pick it up at 12th level with advanced trickery feat