DarkFire82's page

My first attempt was well too "wordy" and the link didn't quite work. So here goes:

Shapechanger Druid

(1) I would like to know where this lies along the following scheme of balance: Unplayable, Underpowered, Balanced, Overpowered, or Broken.

(2) I would like to know how you would build a character of this class to take advantage of it's strengths and weaknesses (in order to get some ideas, or to see if there are any broken tricks I might not have accounted for).

(3) Finally, if this is not at least somewhat balanced, I would like suggestions as to how I might improve it.

I am currently testing the archetype out myself in a campaign a friend of mine is running. If requested, I will post the character build I am using for this.

Paizo Staff:
If you see this: I was not able to find a way to delete or edit my original topic. Otherwise I would have. Please delete the thread "The Druid who ate his Animal Companion."

tl; dr:

I have created a Druid Variant somewhat based off of the "Shapeshift" variant in D&D 3.5 PHB II (Pages 39 - 41). I would like to know how it stands on the following scale: Unplayable, Underpowered, Balanced, Overpowered, Broken. In addition, if you feel that this is not balanced, I would like some suggestions on how I might better balance it.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mBCW6t3EQ1eYJs7wWEma-2HOx8ZPWKiDJSDFDZ3 yt3s/edit?usp=sharing

- A Brief History:
In the group I play Pathfinder with, there are 2 of us that are considered to be "munchkins". I put that in quotes because there are some here who would consider the things we build to not be that bad... Well, at least the things I build.

I am known for throwing together a bunch of different classes into a concept. I will often build Prestige Class builds, or other hybrid characters. The downside to a lot of these builds, is that they don't come into power until higher level. Often times I am among the weaker members of the party at low levels, and just balance out at higher levels. My knowledge of odd loopholes (which I will use occasionally just to get some random effects) is what labels me as a "munchkin". My most successful build so far has been for an Evil campaign, in which I am a (Catfolk: Sorcerer (Linnorm) 1, Fighter (Unarmed) 1, Anti-Paladin (Knight of the Sepulcher) 3, Dragon Disciple 2. I use Dragon Style and Feral Combat training to deal damage (20 STR at this level, picked up Power Attack through the Bloodline feat), and will occasionally deliver a Shocking Grasp (I know, only CL 2) through either an Unarmed Strike or a claw attack. While I try to do odd combinations, I am usually below the power curve for any given party I am in.

The second player on the other hand, tends to play the most over-powered build he can find. It is currently up to a point where the DM once said he would cut the player's damage in half occasionally so that the rest of us would have a chance to do stuff.

I believe this variant might be either balanced, or a bit underpowered due to the fact that this player stated he would rather play a normal Druid, as he could not see an easy way to break this without multi-classing.

Back before Pathfinder, I was in a 3.5 campaign where I used the PHB II variant (actually both of them) for Druids. I really liked the character, but have not been able to find anything quite like it in Pathfinder (except for Synthesist Summoner, which is a bit more cheese than I go for). Unfortunately, that party turned kinda evil and the game ended before reaching level 5.

- Balance?
I did not want to just replace the Wildshape and Nature's Bond with the original variant, as it did not appear properly balanced for Pathfinder. The original variant was designed to balance out 3.5 Wildshape; but like a lot of those attempts, they went a bit too far.

I started with the ability of "absorbing" the Animal Companion into the Druid similar to how the Synthesist Summoner does. That being said, I do have a full understanding of how the Synthesist is "broken" (mostly due to poor wording on some abilities, and the trouble it takes to actually validate that the Eidolon follows all of the proper rules). At the same time, I wanted this to be a true 'variant', and not just a substitution for a single class ability.

I decided that this Druid would take a step back, becoming even more primitive than the normal Druid. To this end, I gutted the Weapon and Armor proficiencies. I also extended the prohibition on metal items to include Weapons. I also gave the Druid a natural attack. This was done mostly for 3 reasons:
(1) If I gave them full IUS and increased their damage, I would be stepping on a Monk's toes.
(2) This class is designed to specialize in Natural Attacks, and be focused on it's animal form.
(3) I still liked the idea of using some Monk tricks, and Feral Combat Training would still allow me to accomplish that.

As per the original variant, I took away both Wildshape and the Animal Companion (including the Domain Option). I wanted to build the forms to have some degree of actual power, so I felt I needed those two abilities to equal out what I wanted to make.

I have always loved the Fire Domain for some reason, and the original character used a feat trick in order to pick it up. Since no tricks like that exist in Pathfinder, I decided to add one in. I replaced the Spontaneous Summon Natures Ally with the ability to choose a single domain from the standard Druid list, and spontaneously cast those spells.

The other abilities were mostly thrown in for flavor reasons.

The forms were built from the following formula:
(1) I gave each form the STR/DEX and Natural Armor increase as appropriate for the Druid's Animal Companion at that level. (2) I decided on 5 forms based around specific themes: Swift Hunter (movement and tracking), Fierce Attacker (offense), Tough Defender (Defense), Plantoid (Plant Wildshape), and Elemental (Elemental Wildshape). I assigned Plant to 12 and Elemental to 16 because it meant I could make them start off more powerful, and it was where they used to be in 3.5. (3) I deconstructed the Eidolon base forms, and found they came out to around 14 points. I created these forms using that as the level 1 value. Starting at level 4, I added in an amount of Evolution points equal to the amount a Summoner would get at that level minus half the level itself. It actually made things pretty easy. There was some rounding involved, and I did set aside a number of the points the "subforms" (and yes. There is absolutely no reason not to choose a subform. It is designed that way). (4) I assigned each form a Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary stat. Mostly they are all STR/DEX/CON, only in different orders. The Plantoid form actually has WIS as one of the first two. Some of the Evolution points were spent on increasing these by set values based on a chart I put together. I chose evolutions based on the theme of the form for the most part. There were points where I couldn't find anything that didn't scream "over-powered" to me, and in those cases I usually either made up abilities, or flavored.

If any of you have actually made it to this point, I am greatfull that you took time to read this.

I am actually playing this character (with GM permission) in one of the games I'm in. We are under the understanding that if he finds anything that needs adjusted, we will work to make sure that it is adjusted fairly. If you would like, I can post the build I am using.

I would also challenge you to find an optimized build for this class. I believe I may have made it rather under-powered, and Druid is already MAD to begin with. I would suggest a level 10 build and or a level 20 build to show what might be over-powered (or under-powered) so that I can look through and adjust things. Having read Treantmonk's guide to Druids, I believe this is designed much more for a Spirit of the Beast build.

Before I ask my questions, I'd like to get a couple of "known factors" out of the way. These are copied from the Pathfinder PRD, so if there is a discrepancy, please let me know:

(1) -- Base Unarmed Strike Rules
Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

(2) -- Improved Unarmed Strike (Feat)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Combat)

You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.

Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.

Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.

(3) -- Monk's Unarmed Strike
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Ok, now that the known rules are in place, here are my many questions:

An Unarmed Strike (without the feat) is considered weapon damage, but it is not a Natural Weapon. What then does it count as? Is it even considered a Weapon at all? Could a Paladin with or without Improved Unarmed Strike cast Holy Sword on their fists? Could a Wizard "Arcane Bond" with their Unarmed Strike? Could a Magus (Playtest) apply "Arcane Weapon" to their Unarmed Strikes?

Since the rules specifically state that an Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Weapon, is it even considered a Natural Attack? If not, again, what is it?

A Monk's Unarmed Strike specifically states that it counts as either a Manufactured Weapon or a Natural Weapon for the purposes of spells and effects. Does that mean a Level 5+ Wizard could enhance the Monk's unarmed strikes as if it was any other Manufactured Weapon (being that the ability to enhance manufactured weapons is the 'effect' of Craft Arms and Equipment)? If so, could a Wizard then enchant different areas of the monk's body differently (A +1 Flaming Fist, +1 Keen Knee, +2 Shocking Foot)? Could a Monk 1 / Wizard 1 Arcane Bond with their Unarmed Strike since the Bond itself is an "Effect" that can be placed on a "Weapon"?

Can you Disarm or Sunder an Unarmed Strike? Even if a normal Unarmed Strike or Improved Unarmed Strike is not a weapon, a Monk's is. Therefore a Monk's Unarmed Strike seems to qualify to be Sundered or Disarmed. If you then disarm a Monk's Unarmed Strike, what happens. If you attempt to Sunder a Monk's Unarmed Strike, how much HP/Hardness does it have? Would a Monk at less than half HP have the Broken Condition after a Sunder attempt?

There were a couple of others, but I can't think of them right now. I'll probably add more questions later. As much as this may seem like a joke topic, I'm actually looking for serious answers to these questions. I have multiple times wanted to Sunder our stupid Monk so he'd stop bragging about how he has the greatest weapon in the party at the moment (Amulet of Might Fists +2, the rest of us have at best +1 weapons.)