Well, so much for keeping this topic brief... :o)
Thank you for all the comments - and in particular all the creative ideas! I appreciate the effort, and I've written my answers below.
First, allow me to emphasise:
To me, "balanced" means that the encounters last more than one round, and that it's not just a paladin showroom. Or any other broken class, for that matter. A "balanced system" is a system that doesn't need to be fixed and customised beyond recognition in order to work.
To me, "playing" means "to have fun", and if one of the players gets to do all the stuff during the encounters, then it's just not fun. Period. No matter how much you love the paladin and fantasise about invincible knights in shiny armour and think, it's not broken. It doesn't make it any more fun. The game is supposed to be fun, not to satisfy one particular party member's fetish for high numbers.
And I'm not just making this up. We've been playing Carrion Crown, and the sessions were notably more fun, when our paladin was absent. Which is a shame, 'cause he's really a nice chap, except he's one-shot'ing the badies, before the rest of us get to take a swing at them...
Answers:
@Excaliburproxy: Hello there, thanks for commenting!
Well, the fact that other classes are broken doesn't make it right that the paladin is. It just means that the problem is more widespread in a game system that claims to be well-balanced.
Here's an real example (as real as a fantasy game gets, that is...): We met a bunch of foes including a huge demon, and we were in for a long, exciting encounter. Oh joy! First round: We moved into position (we saw the demon at some distance, so we had time to line up, while it was closing in), and our paladin readied a ranged attack at the demon. As soon as the demon moved within range, our paladin killed it outright. That was the encounter. The minions were relatively harmless - especially without their big brother. No challenge, no excitement, no fun.
If you think, it's cool that a paladin gets to say big numbers and drain the thrill and excitement from the encounters - fine. And if that's the point of PF, then I guess, it's just not a game for me.
@Wiggz: Greetings!
Yes, the Litany of Righteousness is nuts, you're absolutely right. It may not seem overpowered at first glance, but if you combine it with the nigh-automatic-hit-and-bonus-damage from Smite, it just stacks insanely.
@Zhayne: Cheers!
Well... I suppose that's a solution... Maybe a bit harsh but then again, so's the paladin. ;o)
@alchemicGenius: Salutations, my fair lady! (Judging by the avatar)
I don't know, what campaigns you normally play, but I tell you - evil foes aren't exactly in short supply, so I fail to see that something, which applies in the majority of the encounters, is "absolutely situational".
Moreover, why should flying enemies NOT be a problem to the paladin? Where is that written? Who says that the paladin cannot have ANY limitations at all? I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to use ranged attacks, and if you throw in the Litany of Righteousness, you can wreak decent havoc even without SE.
@Simon Legrande: Greetings, good sir!
Hehe, well that should do it, though it's sad that it's necessary. ;o)
@Malwing: Ahoy!
I'm not saying that there are no other broken classes, let alone archers. And IMHO, Manyshot is the main reason for this (I can't really think of other feats that give you such a hefty damage bonus ATM, but I might be wrong). The problem with the paladin and archery is the combination of enormous attack bonus, enormous damage bonus (SE = no DR, remember?), stacking of various effects and full attacks in every round.
FYI: You don't need a whole bunch of ranged feats. As in my example, 3 archery-specific feats is plenty. Moreover, if you go archer, you're pretty well covered in combat.
@Lemmy:
Quote:
Anyone who claims Paladins are broken has no clue about game balance.
That remark is just out of line, and I think, my arguments overwhelmingly prove you wrong.
@Ascalaphus: Hello!
Again, other broken builds don't un-break the paladin. ;o) FYI: I play a two-handed fighter, and I generally deal less than one third of the damage of our paladin, despite any optimisation efforts. Not to say that another fighter build couldn't "out-dam" the paladin but still... And I'm not b%@$!ing about any "the paladin can't better than me"-nonsense. But the fact is that playing the Carrion Crown without encounters would have made alarmingly little difference because of the paladin.
@Bjørn Røyrvik: Cheers Sir Bjørn and thanks for the input!
You're proving my point. First of all, "playing smart" by the GM is really hard, when the paladin kills the monsters, before they can take any actions. Second, if you add enough hordes of evilness, then yes: You will inevitably be on par with X number of paladins. That's hardly surprising. But one big point of a well-balanced system is that the GM shouldn't have to redo the whole campaign, just because someone decides to play paladin.
IMHO, an exciting encounter is when it's not easy-peasy, when you're actually in danger of loosing your character, unless you carefully choose your next move. If all you want is to say large numbers and see huge demons fall like flies, then you can just double all the player's HPs, give them a +20 attack bonus and +200 damage bonus. That should do the trick, but I fail to see the fun part of playing.
@Kolokotroni: Good day to you!
I really - REALLY like your posts. As I mentioned earlier, though, we played the Carrion Crown, and that's pretty much "one-big-badarse-with-his-mates"-galore.
I fully understand your arguments. But:
1) The archer-paladin can take out most evil monsters of his CR in the first round. That's not just good, that's insane, and it needs moderation.
2) I disagree on the bow. The paladin is brave and wants to meet evil face to face, so SE goes very well with idea of melee only.
3) Maybe I'm getting a bit too philosophical but IMO, two big bad guys would probably end up tearing each other apart, until one's left standing. Evil doesn't share power, you know. ;o) I like the idea of a demon horde, though... I'll just make a note of that.
Rub-Eta: Salutations!
1) 7 = AT LEAST once per encounter = not really a limitation, unless all encounters consist of many, equally-powered foes. Which they rarely do.
2) With lvl bonus to dam: At lvl 10, that's easily 40 dam - with no DR. And: If you don't have a high Cha, you don't become a paladin. Same, if you don't have a high Str, you don't become a fighter.
3) Fighters don't get to add two ability bonuses to the attack, so the attack bonus is a LOT more expensive to the fighter, when buying ability scores.
4) If they don't get more than 5 enemies per day, it means that they can smite them all. What's your point? Or am I missing something?
5) YES, it's (also) the ranged feats! Litany of R. too, but the ranged feats don't help. As many have pointed out, ranged classes tend to be over-powered.
@Arnwolf: Greetings!
Good point, though I don't find it intuitive that they can't heal themselves, but good point. Doesn't help the damage galore, though, and ranged paladins need far less healing.
@TOZ: Hello there!
True. Remove the spells, and we might have ourselves a nigh-decent class.
@Atarlost: Ahoy!
How will removing a restriction make the paladin any less broken? What did I miss?
@Stompy Rex: Cheers!
Excellent points. Slightly off topic, but excellent nonetheless.
@LazarX: Greetings!
Well, I can't say that my group never argues, but it's not bad. And the paladin really crippled the gameplay all the same. Which is why I wrote this post. “Surprise"... ;o)
-Coolheinze
