Catocato's page

Catocato wrote:

"Let's not get ridiculous here. "

You may choose to edit your dice rolsl as a GM but to call my opinion that die rolls never be changed ridiculous, is ridiculous.

The ideas that the dice results should be "sacrosanct" (as in too important to be interfered with), that fudging is a slippery slope or ruins the integrity of the game are, I think, hyperbolic and tipping over into ridiculous.

If you prefer not to fudge, then you prefer not to fudge. But implying that fudging is akin to corruption is ridiculous.

I did not imply that fudging is akin to corruption. Corruption assumes a willing disregard of known rules for one's own benefit. I believe that every GM who fudges rolls believes that they are doing it in best interest of the game. Well maybe there is the rare GM who likes to kill PCs but they don't last long.

If you fudge rolls it IS a slippery slope. If you do it once then why not twice and so on.....

Most people who are in favor of fudging defend it by saying they do it to not ruin the story. For me I can't buy in to the story being told if I know that the narrative comes before the integrity of game mechanics. I can believe a story whatever the outcome if the dice are deciding outcomes which the game decided they should. If I know that by fiat the GM can and will change things as he decides is best, I don't believe that story.

In general I dont believe in dm fudging. Particulary not on saves. If you have a problem with save or suck spells taking down important enemies, deal with that option at character creation. Its fine to say to a player, hey the slumber hex can make encounters really anticlimactic, and mess with the work that I do. Could you maybe go a different direction with your character? I've done that before. And not just for casters, there are other things that can be an issue. If they are address them by allowing the player to change what is causing an issue.

It is simply not ok to invalidate a player choice because it inconveniences your story. Period. If you want to do that, have story time, dont be a dm. Or play a diceless game. But dont negate a player's choice without telling him its an issue. I played in a game once where the dm didnt like failing saves. When I realized what was going on I talked to him, and we worked out a new character for me. I'd FAR AND AWAY prefer to change my character, then have my actions in the big important encounter be meaningless. Because thats what you do when you fudge a save. You remove any meaning from what that character is doing that round. If you do it for most of what they do, you are whether you want to admit it or not, eliminating the importance of that character. Thats not ok and its bad dming.

I totally agree

In general I dont believe in dm fudging. Particulary not on saves. If you have a problem with save or suck spells taking down important enemies, deal with that option at character creation. Its fine to say to a player, hey the slumber hex can make encounters really anticlimactic, and mess with the work that I do. Could you maybe go a different direction with your character? I've done that before. And not just for casters, there are other things that can be an issue. If they are address them by allowing the player to change what is causing an issue.

It is simply not ok to invalidate a player choice because it inconveniences your story. Period. If you want to do that, have story time, dont be a dm. Or play a diceless game. But dont negate a player's choice without telling him its an issue. I played in a game once where the dm didnt like failing saves. When I realized what was going on I talked to him, and we worked out a new character for me. I'd FAR AND AWAY prefer to change my character, then have my actions in the big important encounter be meaningless. Because thats what you do when you fudge a save. You remove any meaning from what that character is doing that round. If you do it for most of what they do, you are whether you want to admit it or not, eliminating the importance of that character. Thats not ok and its bad dming.

I see your point. I think the key is GM experience and discretion.

"Let's not get ridiculous here. "

You may choose to edit your dice rolsl as a GM but to call my opinion that die rolls never be changed ridiculous, is ridiculous.

Catocato wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Catocato wrote:

In a game based on rolling dice the results of the rolls should be sacrosanct. Fudging the occasional roll here or there may benefit "the story" at the cost of the integrity of the game being played.

Adapt the encounters to account for player abilities or ban certain things but fudging dice is a slippery slope that can result in the GM deciding outcomes rather than letting the dice decide, as intended.

At this point in our roleplaying careers, my guys are more interested in getting a good story than total fidelity. They know that their characters can destroy every encounter I throw at them.

And to make sure that we understand each other, this happens not with every roll, just some important ones, to keep an important villain have a bit more stamina, so that he won't go down like a chump, but rather stay more memorable. Normal mooks go down as the dice dicate.

If they know their characters can destroy every encounter you throw at them what is the point of playing?

A good story? Friendship? Enjoyment of the system? Of fantasy stories in general? Roleplaying? Escapism? Maybe the enjoyment of putting together a well-build character? You know, the things which bring RP groups together.

Those things are all good but if the outcome is is predetermined what is the point in rolling dice? The things that I look back on and have the best memories is the TPKs or near TPKs where I didn't know whether or not the group would make it out. It is the uncertain outcome which provides the thrill to me. YMMV. I do take to heart the admonition to not tell others that their idea of fun is wrong but for me if I know I can beat every fight I would rather do something else with my time.

I see your point. I think I will just have an honest conversation in private and tell him my concerns. As has been pointed out, my perception of the probabilities may be skewed somewhat. It might be best if I collect some data at the next session to see what is actually occurring rather than just guesstimating.

And once again a simple little discussion descends into everyone claiming everyone else is having badwrongfun because they don't play the same way they do...

We all play differently, why can't people just understand and accept that?

Story-orientated play isn't "better", competitive play isn't "better", optimizing isn't "better", playing by RAW isn't "better", preventing meta-gaming isn't "better", they're all just different.

Clearly this post makes too much sense and will be dismissed out of hand.

Catocato wrote:

In a game based on rolling dice the results of the rolls should be sacrosanct. Fudging the occasional roll here or there may benefit "the story" at the cost of the integrity of the game being played.

Adapt the encounters to account for player abilities or ban certain things but fudging dice is a slippery slope that can result in the GM deciding outcomes rather than letting the dice decide, as intended.

At this point in our roleplaying careers, my guys are more interested in getting a good story than total fidelity. They know that their characters can destroy every encounter I throw at them.

And to make sure that we understand each other, this happens not with every roll, just some important ones, to keep an important villain have a bit more stamina, so that he won't go down like a chump, but rather stay more memorable. Normal mooks go down as the dice dicate.

If they know their characters can destroy every encounter you throw at them what is the point of playing?

In a game based on rolling dice the results of the rolls should be sacrosanct. Fudging the occasional roll here or there may benefit "the story" at the cost of the integrity of the game being played.

Adapt the encounters to account for player abilities or ban certain things but fudging dice is a slippery slope that can result in the GM deciding outcomes rather than letting the dice decide, as intended.

It sounds like a lot of DMs don't want inconvenient player rolls to get in the way of the story that they, the GM are trying to tell. I think it is up to the players to tell the story against the backdrop the DM has created for them. Big difference.

I believe this text is relevant to help the OP's situation.

Straight from the Core Rulebook (I couldn't find a section with this on the Paizo website or D20PFSRD):

Cheating and Fudging wrote:

Cheating and Fudging: We all know that cheating is

bad. But sometimes, as a GM, you might find yourself in
a situation where cheating might improve the game. We
prefer to call this “fudging” rather than cheating, and
while you should try to avoid it when you can, you are the
law in your world, and you shouldn’t feel bound by the
dice. A GM should be impartial and fair, and in theory,
that’s what random dice results help support. Some
players have trouble putting trust in their GM, but dice
offer something that’s irrefutable and truly non-partisan
(as long as the dice aren’t doctored or loaded, of course).
Still, it’s no good if a single roll of the dice would result in
a premature end to
town guard saved the PCs, but now that they have, it can
give you leverage over the PCs to send them on their next
quest as repayment to the guards!

While this is sound advice I feel it applies to the unique odd circumstance which occurs every couple of sessions. If you are questioning multiple rolls in one combat it gets to a point of thinking "just decide and tell me if he saves or not" and the rolling of dice is irrelevant and amounts to a dog and pony show.

In my mind what is the point of rolling dice if the results are arbitrarily dismissed? If you don't like the results change the rules. To change die rolls is a slippery slope and erodes player buy in to the game.

I have been judicious in using slumber so as to not trivialize encounters. I can understand fudging the odd roll here or there but I am throwing out a save or suck most rounds. Not trusting those rolls puts me in a weird place. With most characters you are rolling your attack and damage or at least damage opposed by the GMs save. With the witch you barely get to roll at all so nearly all of your effectiveness comes at the discretion of the GMs rolls. When you get to a place of questioning the rolls it just is not as much fun. I accept not winning every save battle it is just not knowing if the roll was fudged or not that bothers me. I think I will just have an honest conversation about with the GM. He's a good guy and I'm sure we can work it out.

You could ask him, but that can cause friction. Talk with your GM first. Express your worries and say, what can I (keyword I) do to reduce this fear. Dont ask him to roll in the open at first. Though whatever you do, you will be showing you no longer trust them, which can cause problems.

It might be safer to simply rebuild your character. Save-or dies are VERY anti-climactic and I myself have fugded a few (both for and against the player) so that a situation doesnt become "instant win". GMs dislike "I win" buttons because it turn their encounters into a joke. I dont put too much effort into encounters, so I dont mind, but many folks do, so be careful...

Note: he might also have adapted monsters to better resist your powers, or be using monsters that do naturally. The game is random, so there is no reliable basis in saying "they should only be saving 30% of the time".

Obviously 30% is a guesstimate but reasonably close as I know about the CR of what we have been fighting and also have a good idea of their bonus to save. That is of course assuming no blanket adjustment on his part.

I am playing a witch in a hombrew campaign. After the first couple of sessions the bad guys have been on a tear making their saves against my hexes. While they should be making their saves about 30% of the time they are making them about 2/3 of the time now. Over a short time dice can get hot but I am talking about many sessions with multiple combats each with me throwing out hexes more rounds than not. Possible but highly unlikely to be that lucky for that long. I should note that the rolls are behind a screen.

I recognize that that the witch can be a powerful class. I asked the GM if he was uncomfortable with the witch mechanics and would prefer me to switch classes. He told me that it was fine.

Here's the problem. Every time a save is made now I am questioning whether he actually made it or the GM fudged it to balance the fight. It takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. Would it be out of line to ask the GM to roll where we all can see? I respect his right to balance the fight but changing rolls seems like a poor way to go about it.