Bjorn_Again's page

Bjorn_Again wrote:

Feats:
- Rapidshot and manyshot should be no brainers once you have fast bomb, with that and the buffs you could throw 7 bombs a round (sure you can't do it all day, but against BBEG it will be a blast ;) ).

Rapid Shot might be useful, but Manyshot only works with a bow. Maybe you meant the TWF chain of feats?

You're right, I overlooked that detail, well, using manyshot with bombs doesn't seem absurd, but RAW it's not possible. Rapidshot is still a good feat for fast bombing.

As for the TWF chain, it's not clear if it's legal or not while bombing, I'd say no (and my DM also) because to create a bomb you'd need 2 hands.

Nice work Ogre.

I'll do a full review if I have the time, but right now I have a few comments to make for Dr Strangelob.

On the extracts:
- Bomber's eye could be green, the extra range is really useful, especially when you want to do a full attack and not move on this turn (the real downside being the short duration)

- Transformation, am I missing something here ? it's awesome, not only does it give you a good boost to hit (always nice IMHO) but it gives you an extra attack ! Meaning you can bomb 4 times a round (and it stacks with haste)

Feats:
- Rapidshot and manyshot should be no brainers once you have fast bomb, with that and the buffs you could throw 7 bombs a round (sure you can't do it all day, but against BBEG it will be a blast ;) ). And as a nice bonus those feats apply also on your backup range weapon (not a crossbow obviously)

Discoveries:
- Frost bomb gives the staggered condition which is really nice I'd choose that over concussive any day, but the real killer here is Force bomb.
- Force bomb, now that I've played with it quite a bit, I can say it's amazing particularly if you have melee characters in your party. In my mind the main use is to get someone prone and the really nice bonus is that you can still do some nice damage without worrying about damage reduction. And it's effective against most enemies, except those that have high dex saves (remember that a Dr Strangelob will always have high DD)
- Explosive bomb is nice but I'd put it green, not blue, you can definitely be effective without it.

That's all for a first reading !

Thank you Ogre.

I hope I will be able to use these spells soon !

More discoveries is always a good option, but I kind of expected feats a bit more exotic I guess. Anyway, discoveries are already awesome !

Could someone be so kind to provide more information on the new formulas on the alchemist list ? The juicier one at least
Especially The Fool spoke of offensive options, how do they work ?

Thanks for sharing !

Particle_Man wrote:

It will be interesting to see if the 6 new classes also have alternate class packages like the 11 old classes, and whether there are alternate class packages for any of the prestige classes (or come to that, any new prestige classes).

Indeed. I could actually see an Alchemist archetype of Artificer, based on the mechanics they use. Just change the flavour from potions to magical items, and remove mutagens and potion-fluff discoveries to more magical item crafting things.

Bombs could stay, because they fit as either a potion or a magic item.

It wouldn't be exactly like the Eberron Artificer, but I think it could work from the archetype method (since the new base mechanic of casting should work for the Artificer class). But really... they have "infusions" in the class already!

That would be amazing !

But I find it unlikely that it will be in the APG, otherwise we would have heard of it I think, maybe in APG 2 ?

As it reads on the current final playtest version of these effects it appears that you would indeed be able to throw bombs at the following rate.

16/11/6/1

It is a little bit ridiculous if you ask me, but that is how I feel about the bombs in general, that they are FAR too powerful for little to no REAL investment. Only having to hit a touch AC to deal that much damage is just too much if you ask me, even with the saves.
That brings up another thing that irks me, each round of combat after initial positioning a bombing alchemist is going to force the DM to roll at lest 1 reflex save, if not several.

And the lack of wording when it comes to mixing effects on bombs. I personally had to rule that you could not mix any 2 bomb effects on any one given bomb.(ie. Fast bombs cannot be potent bombs and you cannot have a delayed explosive bomb) Not sure if this is the intention or not but without it things get out of hand really fast.

There are a LOT of things that are ambiguous about the class that I am sure will be fixed up and polished over in the printing of the APG.

Actually

Unless otherwise noted, discoveries that modify bombs do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb

The only ambiguity is on what exactly is a discovery "that modify bombs". Yes I'm looking at you delayed bomb.

Tim Statler wrote:

BryonD wrote:

vagrant-poet wrote:

Bard: Sandman

I can hear this one already.....

I think more like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xMCNmUaGko

I've always been partial to THIS

Aaaaah make IT disappear !

More or less back on topic, as a M&M GM I would say that this is one of the system the more prone to abuse I have ever seen, it is great to make your own superhero, but IMHO it is really harder to make it work than DnD.
They are not the same game, and I wouldn't like PF to become the fantasy M&M.

Although there is a risk that the Oracle will turn out to be the new CoDzilla. fullplate, Quicken spell, spontanious caster, Revelations such as Combat Healer, War Sight, Weapon Mastery and Batlle's and Heaven's Final Revelation. On top of that they get powerful arcane bonus spells.

As for the "sorcerer's spells are so much better than the oracle's" I'm not sure. What spells would that be? Haste and invisibility sphere? Both are 3:d level spells.

I was going to say Time stop, but as a matter of fact the Lore mystery grants you that among other things. Still, Time stop isn't an oracle spell in itself so I still think it's a good answer to your question.

Maybe the class is overpowered, maybe not.
Hmmm, I almost want to play one to see how it turns.

Whereas I see a dwarf's interest in brewing turning into exploration of other things you can brew (and "intoxicate" yourself with), a dwarf's resistance to poison and confrontation with drow turning into an interest in enhancing poison resistance and finding ways to quickly disable those pesky drow, and their love of engineering and tunneling turning into exploration of demolitions.

Exactly !

Well, what race is at the bottom when you consider iconicness of rangers. Now look up the race of the iconic ranger. I'll wait.

Hint: Just look at your picture.... Not all the iconics are stereotypes that have been done a hundred killion times. Every now and then, they throw you a curve-ball.

Actually the ranger never rang a bell in my mind, sure if you take LoTR you have Humans, and Elves and demielves. But for translations reasons I never associated the word ranger and the concept of ranger..

So, for me, the ranger is not associated with any archetype or stereotype.

Beyond that, I say why not? Elves are sensual, and alchemy is definitely a sensual thing. Plus, if you're a smart-Alec who mixes up stuff and then throws it at people, a boost in intelligence and dexterity will come in handy.

Alchemy being (in my mind at least) a coarser form of chemistry it doesn't struck me as more sensual than anything.

And yes, if your willing to go to the snooty side of the force to gain more power, elves will do just that.
Back on topic, I wonder how many more discoveries they added, because 2 or 3 is a matter of swapping one discovery with another, but 15 foe example would imply a possibility of deeper specialization, as Ogre said.

Elf is a bit odd, I can assure you though that elf alchemist bombers are quite awesome. The INT+DEX boost is a killer combo.

Of course if your going the optimization way Elf is the best option, but I wouldn't go so low as to play an elf... *shiver*

Nooooo !
No more discoveries for the alchemist please, I implore you, the choice is already too hard as it is !
Of course if infusion was a core ability as a compensation for this mind torture I'd consider it a fair trade ;)

On a side note, why would you choose an elf to illustrate the alchemist class ? When you speak of alchemist I picture the races in this order: Gnome, Dwarf, Human, Halfling, Demi-Elf, Elf, Half-Orc.
A curious choice really, I appreciate the quality of the illustration in itself, but it doesn't feel that iconic.
At least tell me that alchemist is among the favorite classes of the Dwarves.

I see things like that:
A player cast wish and ask:
- To cast some 8th lvl priest spell => Fair enough the spell is cast
- To lower the DR of a precise enemy => unless the DR in question is a central part of the plot (like: to wound this creature you have to go on a quest in an exotic and dangerous place to find an artefact...) it will probably be lowered without more nitpicking, after all it's a 9th lvl spell so why not
- That this Great Wyrm just there would be dead => no problem, enjoy your Dracolich.
(- That this Great Wyrm just there would drop dead => no problem enjoy your zombie throwing dragon...)

The Wish spell is a 9th lvl spell, yes, but it shouldn't be an "I win" button, and so I think it is fair that players should be careful of what they wish for...

Erh, actually

Wish
[Various powerful effects encoded directly in the wish spell]
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)

So, while screwing the players is not always a good idea, the way I read it, it is still an option in pathfinder for non standard wishes.

Not sure exactly how fast bombs work in conjunction with other discoveries, hopefully it's cleared up in the final version. Fast bombs is either silly weak or ridiculously strong depending on whether you allow it to be used with other discoveries. Being able to toss poison bomb and stink bomb in the same round would be nuts.

It never occurred to me that fast bombs might not work with other discoveries, and I won't even consider it, combining different bombs is part of the fun of the class IMHO.

And yes eternal potion has a requirement, otherwise it would be a no brainer.
And Good hope is a good spell, you just have to find a bard who can brew potions I guess.

OK I think the forum lost my previous answer, if not, sorry for the double post.

All I have to say is to the original poster: great Discworld reference name.

Thank you I wondered if someone would get it. :)

I praise you for your knowledge of the best author there ever was ;)

@W. John Hare: You seem to go for more damage and less "subtlety". But you definitely want frost bomb (or any over kind of elemental damage) over explosive bomb, if you take only one of the two. The day you have to deal with... let's say a red dragon... you'll be happy to have something else to throw than fire and more fire...
As a side note, at lvl 20 you gain 2 discoveries and 1 grand discovery (and for RP reasons I'd probably choose an eternal life)

Enlarge person - A lot of cheaper than using permanency!
Barkskin - This gives you a free amulet of natural armour (+5 at 12th level), costing a lot less than the real thing, and not taking up a slot!
Water breathing: Yay! Great if you want to make a sub-marine expedition
Tongues: Shatter that language barrier!
Fly. Yeah, it's flying all day long. Not exactly cheap if you want to do it any other way
Haste. This is so awesome I can't even begin to explain it. Except that an item that would make you hasted all day would cost a couple of kingdoms. (Compared to that, those Philosopher's Stones are mere paperweights!)

Why would I want to be enlarged ? As a bomb thrower there's no benefit in it. Barkskin won't stack with the armor bonus of your mutagen. Tongues : useful ?yes. But permanent ? No. Water breathing : been there, done that, not worth it ;) Fly, maybe. And haste will always be cast on the party thanks to our sorceress (I know eternal potion is still better).

So for eternal potion, yes I do agree it's amazing, and is probably powerful enough to be worth two discoveries. Still for the sake of the discussion I want to see all the angles. And maybe the whole possibilities of what you and others can do, could diminish its usefulness in game.
And of course the effect of the potion might be dispelled just as any other buff.
Again I don't say that I won't take it, but two discoveries, damn, that's hard !

Nah, I didn't. Something that can be taken care of easily by using lesser restoration. Do it on a slow day and you won't miss the 2nd-level slot. The int damage goes away easily, but the backup mutagen stays!

Are you sure you can do that ? For me the -2 INT works just like an enhancement item, you have the penalty as long as you have the item.

Because if you can do that, what is the point of having INT damage in the first place ? To limit the number one alchemist can make per day ? I think I could make 20 mutagens a day...

I guess if you already have a crappy will save, that one point will not make that much of a difference ;-)

As one might say : lol !

How many time did that one point save your life ? (but I'm sure you knew it already and were joking)
Is the increase in Dex a fair trade ? It depends, if you're frightened, or paralysed, it won't serve you that well ;)
To illustrate: I did drink a Dex mutagen during last play, and just after the DM said « A red dragon comes, make your will save »... well, OK, I rolled a 20, but my point stands ;)

To conclude, my list of discoveries match yours until the 12th lvl, after that... I don't know.

Thank you for your time KaeYoss.

Greater/grand mutagen: Note that they don't just add more ability scores to increase - they also improve the bonuses. Talk to your GM about getting grand mutagen and still only using two bonuses (so you won't touch str/int) - and even if not, Greater at least will be useful! Extra con is never a bad thing (remember that the decision whether you're in melee range is not yours alone - if the enemy gets to you, you're next to someone who will attack you. Plus, they can always attack you with ranged stuff), and a bigger dex boost means you can hit even better (and be harder to hit)!

I do agree that extra CON is always useful, but the base mutagen already gives a nice boost. As for Dex the more the better sure, but it can't increase the AC that much (even with a light armor) and the will save is already the worst I have, not sure I want to lose those 2 points of wis. All in all I think they are not worth the trouble if not in melee.

Infuse can be a great backup - you make one extra mutagen in case you really need a second mutagen on that day. If not, the stuff keeps forever. I guess the GP price might be decreased in final, but still, it's far from being useless.

I think you missed the 2 INT points hit when using this...

Enhance potion: Your assumption is not completely right: You make potions at the level you want, between the minimum requirement and your current level. But if you use something above minimum, it will cost more! 50gp per spell level per extra caster level! It might not be the greatest thing on earth at 2nd level, but imagine being 10th level and using a haste potion that cost you 1050gp (or 525gp to make) which normally lasts 7 rounds to last you 10 rounds, like that potion that would cost 1500 (750 to make). Instant savings!

I didn't see it that way, so... not totally useless... still is it worth a discovery slot ?

Dilution: Another money saver! Once per day, you can instantly create a potion (assuming he already has one of those) and pay one-quarter of what he would have paid in the store (or half of what he would have paid to make one from scratch - and that would have taken a couple hours)

If it was at will (but only one time per potion) I might start to consider that maybe it has some use. (and depending on your level the time to make a potion as an alchemist can be really short indeed)

Delayed bomb: The only one delayed bomb at a time part does suck (It has that nasty after-taste of being a rule for rules' sake), but still, combine it with sleight of hand and do some reverse-stealing.

It's a really good (awesome even) idea, but a bit out of character for my alchemist (yeah I'm still cursed with a bit of RP...)

Potent bomb: I kind of agree: Giving up the other stuff for a few points of extra damage doesn't sound appealing to me. I'd consider it a filler for when I'm playing a bomber alchemist and run out of discoveries that would fit or sound fun

In other words: never ;)

Force bomb: Call it your ghost bomb. I guess staggered versus prone is a matter of taste and circumstance - I'd prefer prone, as both only last for one round (well, prone lasts until you stand up, but you probably want to do that right away), with prone your party's melee warriors will be thankful for the extra AoOs.

And the sneaky rogue too... yes, prone might be better

Explosive bomb: Great if you're up against crowds, as you affect a larger radius. The catching fire part is merely the icing.

But the larger radius is « only » for the splash damage, which doesn't seem to scale that well. And if the crowd is made of low level minion the clouds would take care of them even better than this one

Extend potion: Not bad, I'd say. If you have any focus on using potions to enhance your battle prowess (which makes kind of sense for the alchemist), this is like a lesser rod of metamagic extend or three.
Eternal potion: Really awesome! That one potion could be haste! I'll spend two discoveries to get permanent haste any time. Okay, not that horribly useful to you as a bomber (unless you use fast bombs a lot), but I'm sure there's other stuff that warrants this. Permanent shield? Permanent barkskin? It's like an extra magic item!

I agree with you it's like an extra magic item (in fact that's exactly the conclusion I came to), but limited to lvl 3 spells when you are lvl 16. Haste is obviously the first to come to mind, but potions of haste might achieve the same result, and low level extract are here for that to...

To conclude, you didn't help at all ! :P
You made me consider discoveries I had discarded, making the choices harder !

Anyway, what would be your 11 discoveries from lvl 2 to 20 ?

Hello everyone,

I was wondering about the discoveries my alchemist could take, and thought that maybe some of you had some ideas on the subject.

My alchemist is of the ranged persuasion, the less he is in melee the better. And the bombs are his main attack. He also acts as a support for the group.
He has hight INT and high DEX

Here are my reflexions about the discoveries:

- The ones that I'm sure I'll take:

• Infusion (should be core IMHO)
  
• Precise bombs
  
• Fast bombs
  
• Smoke bomb (Instant concealment FTW !)
  

- The ones that I'm sure I won't take:

• Grand mutagen (Nice but not so useful outside melee)
  
• Greater mutagen
  
• Feral mutagen
  
• Infuse mutagen (If it doesn't get change in the APG I don't see who would ever choose this one)
  
• Sticky poison (could be nice for melee, but I don't see it working on a ranged weapon)
  
• Enhance potion (Don't see the point in this one, as an alchemist you're making you're own potions anyway, so they already are at your level...)
  
• Dilution
  

- Those who seem good but not good enough compared to others:

• Acid bomb (I can't take all the elemental variations of the bombs and this doesn't seem to be the best)
  
• Concussive bomb
  
• Delayed bomb (This one is a tough one, I'd really want to have it, but at this time it feels too limited: only one bombs and delayed only for rounds/lvl, I you could make a minefield on the other hand...)
  
• Shock bomb
  
• Sticky bomb
  
• Potent bombs (tempting, but, in my mind, you lose to much versatility to gain only a few in power)
  
• Inferno bomb (good for visual effects but I prefer the other clouds)
  

- Finally those that I'd take but don't have enough slot for all of them:

-The variant bombs:
• Frost bomb (staggered is good...)
  
• Force bomb (...but so is prone, although it makes the target harder to touch for the next ranged attack. And yet again there's no DR for Force...)
  
• Explosive bomb (seems a bit behind the ones above)
  
• Madness bomb (I have the feeling that this one is better on paper than in game)

  -The variant clouds:
  

• Stink bomb (nauseated is awesome, but the clouds duration is only one round)
  
• Poison bomb (the advantage of this one over stink bomb is the duration and the fact that an alchemist could stay all day inside...)

  -Other:
  

• Extend potion (at best its usefulness is really circumstantial but...)
  
• Eternal potion (...this one could be more than handy, yet is it worth two discoveries ?)
  
• Elixir of life (as one of the two lvl 20 discoveries)
  
• Combine extracts (quickened extracts...)
  

The alchemist has 11 discoveries over 20 lvl (2 at lvl 20) and currently I have rounded down the choice to 13 discoveries...

So what do you think ? Which ones would you chose ? and in which order ?

Thank you DM_Blake for the answers and the link to James Jacobs post.

And I have to say that I really like what Paizo made with the skills.

Thanks for the answers.

Since I just bought a +2 headband I asked my DM what choices I had in the town's stores.

As for the languages I agree that is up to the DM, but I wanted to know if there was a "legal" base.

And the lack of non-class skill penalty is a huge change, so many possibilities...

I believe the spell states that when an item leaves the persons body it reverts back to it's original size. So it would not do the different dmg for size then.

Thanks for the answer but the problem is in the description of the spells, not in the rationalization behind. I could argue and justify that size does matter or not (yeah...I know...).

But the spells here clearly lack consistency.
Oh well, without an official answer I guess it's a matter of choice. And as far as I'm concerned I'd choose that size doesn't change damages either way.

And now a bit of thread necromancy (sorry, but creating a new thread seemed worse)

I just came across this issue myself and it seems self-contradictory. Reduce person says "projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them" but there's no mention of this in enlarge person. Either the size of the weapon matters or it doesn't.

Zo

I couldn't have said it better.

It would be great to have an answer on that subject :)

Hello everybody,
This is my first post here so in order to introduce myself let's just say that I have played AD&D and D&D for years, and that I am currently playing a dwarf alchemist in my first Pathfinder game.

To get to the point:
1) Paizo has made quite a few change in the way INT works, now a permanent increase in the INT score has a retroactive effect on skill points per level. OK that's great. But I need a bit of clarification about how the "Headband of Vast Intelligence" works.
I quote:

This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.

RAW it doesn't say precisely that the skill points thus earned replace those normally earned by a raise of INT, so you could gain both the skill points of the increased INT and the skill points described with the headband.

RAI I'd say that you don't have the benefit of the raised INT, but that's not that obvious (for me at least). So what do you think ?

2) At character creation you gain a number of bonus languages equal to your INT bonus. Does that number increase with your INT ? (and what happens when your INT bonus exceed the number of bonus languages your race knows ?)

3) It seems there's no penalty in choosing a non-class skill in PF (except losing the 3 points bonus) is that exact ?

That's all for this post, thanks in advance !