Ben Ferguson's page

Hi

cancelled my Paizo Module sub due to overload of AP material, then AP sub due to the same - too many paths....not enough time....Moreover my crew are interested in sandbox style gaming - thus making APs as they stand needing lots of work to sandbox them... These 'mini-APs' though have much greater appeal - since they offer the epic feel of a story arc, whilst not meaning pcs whole development is on one path alone...allowing for greater personalisation...

If these bigger modules can offer a more sandbox style environment, with factions, various ways of getting things done, etc I will for sure be hooked. I am going to get this and see though - so well done Paizo - esp since the Mythic Adventures book and new mythic AP (after I said my group want sandbox), nevertheless, these look really kewl as well... Looks like I am renewing a few subs/ certainly getting the pdfs. Exciting times.

& Yes - some pawns for the first adventure... some adventure tiles?.... even a total pack of extras: big map, floor-plan maps, cards, pawns....? :) These kinda things all help create a great atmosphere around the table.

Kudos to you guys -you have really carried the torch superbly well.

Ben

You won't see that too often, as enlarge has some penalties to it, and 4d8 is plenty to be getting on with!

Thank The Lord!

Ben Ferguson wrote:

The Mage has cast it using permanency! So until he meets a critter/ npc with dispel magic, it stays! :S

It's a magic item rather than permanency, but yes, dispel magic is a worry. ;)

aha! Yes, an enlarged monk, doing 8d8 damage (+d6 electric from gauntlets) with his fists 5 times a round - as it turns out. Forgot to factor in his Monks Robes! ARGH!

Don't worry too much. Strong jaw only lasts minutes and thus it is very unlikely that they will have it up before many encounters.

The Mage has cast it using permanency! So until he meets a critter/ npc with dispel magic, it stays! :S

This is a misunderstanding. His unarmed strike is not a natural weapon. It counts as a natural weapon when you try to benefit from a spell or effect that would enhance natural weapons.

So when you use strong jaw, it counts as a natural weapon and benefits.

Flurry of blows does not improve his unarmed strike, it just gives him more unarmed strikes on a full attack as if he were twf'ing. So there is no conflict here. Also that phrase is not referring to his unarmed strikes. He cannot make natural attacks in addition to hit flurry of blow attacks.

Normally on a full attack, you can make natural attacks(as secondary natural attacks) in addition to your regular weapon attacks. So if you were twf'ing with 2 shortswords and you had a bite and a slam attack, you could make all your shortsword attacks and then make a bite and slam attack at -5.

That part of flurry of blows is just clarifying how a full attack using flurry of...

Thanks thepuregamer and Tarantula. Issue cleared up. I will now go and weep into my cup! 4d8 + d6 electricity x5 per round it is then!!!! My poor critters! lol!!

Improved Natural Attack has been specifically errated to not work with unarmed strikes. However, Strong Jaw has no such restriction, and as such, would work with monk's strike since they count as "... both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Put it this way: If magic fang works, then why wouldn't strong jaw work?

Also, your damage die calculations are correct.

Thanks. Thing is, if improved natural attack can't work with flurry, then is it possible to magically enhance your natural attacks with Magic Fang or Strong Jaw - since as the rules of Flurry of Blows says: "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks." Thus....???? is it only possible to buff a one off attack with your fists, and not with flurry of blows? I am trying to get my head round the legal language of flurry!!

My suggestion is to check out the 4 iconic characters listed in the back of each book, and then imagine them run by casual gamers more interested in just having fun than being extremely tactical. That is what the encounters are designed for. If your group doesn't match that description in any of several different ways, you will have to bump up the difficulty. For example:

-- If you use more than 15 point buy (or a generous rolling method) you have to bump up the difficulty.
-- If your group are good optimizers, you have to bump up the difficulty.
-- If your group crafts a lot, or by any other means is able to exceed the power of the gear listed with the iconics, you have to bump up the difficulty.
-- If you have more than four players, you have to bump up the difficulty.
-- If your group is tactically very smart, you have to bump up the difficulty.

cheers for these views. It is curious that there is a lack of blocking of scry spells, since this seems rather important!!

As for the boosting the critters, I have been - but by so much it has become silly!

Gotcha on the magic item creation, I will watch this more closely. PLUS I may have let the monk strong jaw his flurry of blows illegally as well - am seeking some advice on this on a seperate post!

& yes - only 15 point buy from now on!! lol!!!!

Quick question: Can the damage output from flurry of blows be improved by Strong Jaw?

I ask since, although one's fists are a natural attack, in the text of flurry of blows says: " A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."

Thus at the moment, an enlarged 11th level monk goes from d10 to 2d8 damage with every hit.

IF strong jaw works, I am assuming it goes from 2d8 to 4d8.

However, this makes the monk very powerful with multiple attacks a round with flurry, with 5 attacks dishing out 4d8 damage, before STR bonuses etc!

I have tried in vain to find out the answer to this....

PLUS: would improved natural attack be possible for a monk as well? Or has this been changed too (as a result of the above wording?)

Thanks

Ben

Although it does sound like you have a bit of the "overpowered PCs" problem too - which has already necessitated an arms-race response. 137 hp of damage on an 11th level monk seems a bit high (though the 37 AC seems properly optimized.) Have you done an audit on the PCs to make sure their equipment is on par?

Yes. Everthing is above board, although the rules on enlarge and how this affects natural attacks is not resolved STILL!! (we need to house rule this since to my knowledge no one at Paizo has had the **** to errata/ decide what to do on this: the monk has their own increase size and damage table, there is a table in the bestiary on natural weapon progression on size, and there is a feat 'improved natural attack' which has its own progression dice for size as well!! SO I think his damage output is correct - BUT!!!!

as for the gear.... well, the mage creates stuff at half price for them all, and the cleric makes armour..... so they have kitted themselves out well. Plus they are a bright bunch, and in their 30s-40yoa, and thus are organised and resourceful.... and haven't made amateur mistakes that a 12 year old could make.

The main thing is that most encounters are WAAAAY too underpowered! Not good!

They certainly are getting confident - that scrying of the Baron and then teleporting into his bedroom whilst he was having some extra-marital fun ... took me by surprise!! I turned all the trolls in the keep to hill giants - but to no avail!

I need to create some new encounters for them - most in Book 4 are so weak, it would be dull to run them. Fast forward to book 5 I think (and even here, with massive alterations!!)

Is it just me, or is encounter design simply not challenging enough in Kingmaker?

Unless there is a serious level spell caster NPC, the pcs are muntering all my critters.... the Iron Golem did not last more than 4 rounds with my lot in Armag's tomb (4 x10th level at the time+ 2 cohorts + 2 animal companions + 1 familiar)...... but the cleric encounter was more challenging.... although the druid turned into an earth elemental and got beyond their blade barrier....

as for Drelev. The party simply scried the baron, using a seal they found on his flunk at the battle of Tatzleford (which the party themselves took to the enemy, with their uplifted Roc as an aircraft carrier, and despite having changed the trolls into hill giants, they made mince meat of the army without any aide.....).... so they scried the baron and teleported into his bedroom whilst he was having a merry time.....thus bypassing the swamp....

scry and teleport are but two problems facing such a sandbox game.

I also think that D&D is designed around the exhaustion of resources in a dungeon, and the one-shot encounters of a wilderness don't burn so many resources.....

But I also think the CR of encounters needs to be upped a bit.... and lessons from 4e ported into PF: more interesting environments, which are used in combat, greater variety of combatants, and no solo monsters, have many.

I am alone in having to redesign all the encounters for this AP so they are challenging enough? This problem has gotten worse as the levels have risen. Levels 1-3 were more challenging but even then I had to push tuskgutter into a dire boar - not that it mattered, the 3rd level barbarian on his steed critted his charge with a lance, killing it in one hit!!!! ARGH! But now, at 11th level, pcs are very powerful, and without magical support, critters are in heaps of trouble. The monk has a high AC, esp with buffing and using Ki points (AC 37 max with buffing etc - but normally 33, with sandals of displacement).....who dished out 137hps in one round to a souped up 12 headed hydra (I double every creatures HPs so they can last more than 2 rounds - but in this case, I trebled its hit points, and it lasted 4 rounds I believe!!) (He is enlarged, with strong jaw, and has some electrical bracelet thing)...... he makes the Iron Golem look like a wuss!!!!

Hi folks

my gang are having a headache

the natural attacks by size table 3.1 p302 in Bestiary does not tally with the feat Improved Natural Attack.

add to this other stuff, eg strong jaw, means one can enter a world of hurt with the maths

We have been house ruling what is the progression....

Can anyone tell me if there is an chart which does this on these forums/ post me a solution - or is it make it up/ house rule for now?

Thanks!!

Ben

I think that if we had stuck to 15 or even 20 point buy, and banned 3.5 stuff things would be a lot harder. The only reason I allowed 25 was because I combined AoW(Age of Worms) with KM, and that one is a meatgrinder. That is also why I don't care about them getting the easy XP from KM. They have had a few AoW encounters, and they notice the difference. If you drop any Paizo AP down to 20 PB, and put some restrictions on the 3.5 stuff it makes a big difference.

I have banned anything non official Pathfinder (as in only using the Core rule book and the Advanced Players Guide - nothing from 3rd party producers, message boards, 3.5 books etc) for the sake of my sanity, and since all of us recognise that only the stuff in the core 2 books (and soon to be 3 with the magic one coming out soon) has been thoroughly playtested for Pathfinder.

There is some demand for more prestige classes though, esp from the mage pc..... and that magic book is some way off still...... so I may have to relent for him!!

I won't allow a 25 point buy again for the next AP I run!! Too much extra work!

Ben

Thanks Mandor & Wraithstrike!

at least you have confirmed what I thought was going on vis-a-vie underpowered encounters. I do find it strange that a company as well versed in 3rd edition D&D lore still finds it hard to design good encounters that stretch the party.... and with web-based support, Paizo could do a lot more to support us DMs. I liked how Ptolus was supported via a code in your book through which you logged on to get lots more goodies. Online support for encounter maps and the like would be great. Likewise, an online encounter builder, where you can tweek the encounter quickly, and print it off.... Oh well. What do I know? ;)

Will stat up a host of centaurs (you never know with my crew), and will advance template the spriggans (fort only), and change the mudmen.... not sure what to yet - may add an elemental.

Will get back to you on what I have done, and how it pans out!!

Playing in 2 Fridays time (I believe)

Ben

What are your particular questions? I ran a similar group through it. I am on book 5 now so anything before book 5 I can probably help you with.
One issue I do have is that there are lot of encounters where the party gets to rest a lot due to the openness of system. They got a lot of XP from random encounters. Those Soul Eaters are nasty though. Don't forget about the cyclops "flash of insight". It makes things interesting. For the water trap I took out the dinosaur and put in advanced electric eels. Stunning is a good way to take away actions.

Concerns mentioned:

1) ENCOUNTER DESIGN.
I am aware I need to toughen up critters an extent due to the 25 point buy pcs, but even if they were less powerful, many encounters in book 3, like books 1 and 2 as far as I can see are underpowered.... Paizo seems to design encounters with 1 creature.... which does not stretch the party/ risk them/ deplete their resources adequately (4e whilst being dull, at least has had encounter design sorted out)..... has anyone else found this - and if so, how can one get round this? As far as I can see, D&D is designed around the idea of multiple encounters in a short space of time, which cause attrition to resources, and thus stretch the party's skill in resource management (spells, potions, 1 use items, hps) over that period..... and the archetypal arena for such a testing is the dungeon. Wilderness, hex-based exploration (ala Kingmaker) has a problem in that we are encountering 1 creature every now and then, 1 per day at most, giving spell casters time to relearn their spells - making them much more powerful in 1 or 2 fight/day situations.....

eg: CR2 mudmen, even 12 of them this time, are not going to cut the mustard against well organised party.

2) ENCOUNTER MAPS: WotC in the last days of 3e had learnt a little better about creating encounter maps. Paizo seems to have dropped the ball on this one. 4e has continued with this. It would be good to see the environment being fully mapped out, to aide the DM in creating more dynamic encounter maps, where the critters can use their knowledge of the environment, to force pcs into hazards, encourage them to charge across ground which is dangerous, etc etc.....

Example - redesigning the mudmen - off the top of my head!! (The numbers are not play tested, and am going with experience of the last story arc I run here in Rivers Run Red!)

A) BATTLE MAP: Thus the mudmen......this works better in an interestingly designed encounter battle map, with some exploding geysers (roll a d6, they go off on a one, reflex save versus DC 17 or burnt for 2d6 heat damage or something)

B) BRUTES I would also brute-ify a couple of mudmen, say 2, giving them bonuses to their BAB (BAB to +14) and HPs (80 a piece at a guess for now). These would wade in with their fists for 2d6+4 damage

C) SKIRMISHES - the grappling mudmen, say 5, - use the Advanced critter template on them to boost their attacks and damage by 1, and defences, as well as AC by 4. That should do it.

D) ARTILLERY: 4 of them - boost their throwing mud skill to +10.

E) LEADER/ CONTROLLER: have a leader - an 'elementalist' who is able to cast some spells, and 'direct traffic'.
eg:
(i) can make ground become liquid, trapping pc - a mud version of entangled - DC 18 to escape/ make concentration checks to cast spells (Standard action)
(ii) cause a geyser to explode (standard action)
(iii) hurl lumps of piping hot mud from their (non-magical) staff (from the elemental plane of mud): ranged attack +12, damage d8+2

even 3 manticores are not going to really pose a serious problem in F on their own.... I may create some other hazards in that encounter too - 4e-fy it)

3) THE SPRIGGANS.
I have 2 problems with the spriggans
a) they are severely underpowered as a threat for a bunch of hell-raising 7th level pcs. Their boss is up to speed - but the rest? If I was to have them, I would have more, and have the gates closed, more guards (even if they are pissed)... and more on advanced templates!!
b) as I mentioned, I rather like the idea of the town being totally deserted. To ram home the idea of a ghost town.... so I will probably go for that....

4) NO SPRIGGANS --> NEW PROBLEMS.
a) experience points lost from not fighting them
b) who guards the loot.

a) I am thinking of having some more serious events on the way to Varnhold. As in a couple of 'mini-dungeons' -

EXAMPLE: one for the missing T Hanvaki, to make him into an explorer of gems/ seams of minerals - and his expedition to a new treasure trove has gone wrong.... pcs will be attracted by the possible new wealth (resource for kingdom)... but this enables me to design a small spelunking expedition into which I can throw an assortment of critters, gain them some xp, and of course, expend all their spells and resources over say 3 large encounters and some small ones. :)

5) CLUES.
I like the idea of the Nomen being 'set-up' here. But think having 'Nomen' written in Varnhold in the bar is a little too leading.....

Would this work:

A) NOMEN WAR WITH VARNHOLD. The PCs already have heard from the settlers east that they are having problems developing their farmsteads to the east of Varnhold, since the centaurs claim it as theirs. A guerilla war has been waged for some time. Centaurs have burnt down various farmsteads, scalped folk, etc etc..... THUS THEY ARE ALREADY THE BAD GUYS BEFORE THE PCS TURN UP.

B) VARNHOLD HAS SIGNS OF CENTAUR ATTACK (although these would be older - DC 15 Perception check --> signs of mounted soldiery/hooves outside varnhold, circling, with spear gauges in walls? DC 18 to know these are centaur tracks.... DC 22 to know these are a month old??)

C)Thus the pcs could track the centaur's for a bit, and be ambushed by them guerilla style, hit and run, on and off through the landscape..... how they handle that is another matter.

I better stat out the centaur as well as design my bigger encounters!!

If you Wraithstrike/ anyone has any thoughts on these ideas etc please throw them at me!

Thanks in advance

Ben

Thanks Runnetib.

Yes - the party are overpowered, and I have been using the Advanced Template in a judicious fashion!!! They are also a crack team, with the guy playing the mage having got it down to a T....summoning monsters, buffing the others with speed for an extra attack... and the druid with their companion, and at low level spells such as entangle (deadly in a wilderness).... the mage is seriously overpowered, with their headband of thought (the +2 INT bonus)... giving them a 22 INT, and thus +6 on DC of their spell saves - a substantial number!!

Even if they were a mere 15 point buy, I still have gotten the impression that challenging encounters need to be strung along together, to demand resource depletion....

BUT these issues aside (since I am part to blame!)... I am concerned about the Varnhold scenario... and how best to approach it... and would appreciate any advice from folks who have run it/ are running it/ have simply read the book and have a grasp of the issues from your POV. :)

Thanks again,

Ben

Hi.

I am running the Kingmaker Path, and am launching into Varnhold Vanishing in 2 weeks time. I have read through all the posts in a bid to spot 'bottlenecks'/ issues.... as per usual.

part of me wishes that Tales of the Margreve would work better in the Gnarlmarshes.... and that you chaps in Paizo had really gone fey-mad on this story arc, and really worked on developing the wood on the border of the pc lands, and gone from there.... BUT....

I have really enjoyed the path so far - but have had problems, I imagine partly caused by me allowing for a 25 point build for pcs (not really thinking this through).... and partly because most encounters are 1 critter encounters which hardly pose a challenge to the pcs. I have found myself 4e-fying the encounters - eg "brute-yfying" major beasts like "Owlzilla" (the giant owlbear), the tendriculous plant beast, the evil tre-ent.... giving them a shot in the arm of an extra 100-200hps each so they can survive the first 2 rounds. (The 3rd level barbarian charging on a mount criticalled against Tuskgutter, killing it in one hit, despite me making it a dire boar).... They are a tough bunch of hombres the pcs.... They have so many creature allies (druid's giant elk, barbarian's warhorse, the mage's summonsed rhinos....)... In the troll lair, I decided to throw lots of trolls against the party - in waves - which made it a closer combat (as I hoped) - but they still were victorious (one of their creatures was grappling with the troll, otherwise it would have downed the barbarian) - but only the troll lair and stag-helm fort have challenged the party (as in used all their resources) since these were large encounter zones..... highlighting the problem of sandboxing with small encounters..... but I digress

1) I am obvuously concerned about the weak encounters in the wilderness (this seems to be a problem in all the books for this AP - D&D is designed I guess for dungeoneering, and tough resource burning encounters/ a string of easier ones - not one-offs)

2) I am also concerned - well - know for 100% -the spriggans are no match for a bunch of powerful 7th level pcs, run by a bunch of bright sparks

3) I am concerned about the whole adventure to be honest. As others have mooted (sorry Greg - this was your remit so no blame on you), the story is a little tangental to the main path, it has no fey etc

A previous poster, I forget who - and it may have been on another board) threw out some interesting ideas (and I apologise if this is the wrong person) about changing V's background and linking it into the metaplot, by making V into Count Ranalc (obviously this would need some development).... thus keeping the fey theme - and the spriggans doing his bidding....

Another poster threw up the idea of having the Nomen centuars worshipping the awakening Vordakai (say he had been dreaming for ages and his dreams infected the locality, and thus corrupted the local seers etc and their dreams).... so initially the centaurs are hostile.... an idea I like a lot..... Thus in their dreams they could have been told by their 'god' to attack the new settlement.... thus the real signs of conflict.... with some settlers being dragged back for sacrifice, awakening fully Vordakai, who then uses the soul jars....

I rather like the idea of Varnhold being totally empty.... with food rotten on plates, etc... to ratchet up the mystery.... thus no spriggans (who are no challenge to my 7th level party)...

Things I need assistance on - if anyone is feeling charitable!!!!:

a) how to make it challenging - current wilderness encounters, as well as the Spriggan are waaaay underpowered
b) how to keep things pacy. (We only meet on Fridays from 7.30-midnight) (I am doing the kingdom building on another night with one other player so the adventure time is maximised). Part of me is tempted to roleplay the first part - with the whole realm being barren of life.....the need then is for pcs to find clues..... I am thinking the murder of crows (again massively underpowered) could give the party a direction to follow.....leading them to the Nomen Centaurs.... and into a war with them.....until they discover the hidden valley (but how will they do that??)

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd appreciate them!!(to make this a good story)

Ta!

Ben