Conna the Wise

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So this came up in the recent combat maneuver paizo blog, but was never resolved. It has also been raised in this forum several times without reaching a definitive answer. I'm hoping that the winds of change might blow through and give some clarity. Also, it seems that SKR is prowling about right now. Care to shed some love and light? Of course, all thoughts are welcome.

The question is how weapon finesse interacts with combat maneuvers. At first blush, it seems that there is no interaction. If you want you dex bonus on a combat maneuver, then Agile Maneuvers is the way to go. However, here are some quotes:

Combat Maneuvers wrote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
Weapon Finesse wrote:
With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
SKR on recent blog post wrote:
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

So, here are the points which seem to be made here:

(1) Combat Maneuver rolls are attack rolls,
(2) Weapon Finesse lets you use dex when making an attack roll with a finesse weapon, and
(3) Disarm, Sunder, and Trip attempts can, at your discretion, use your weapon in hand and all appropriate bonuses.

The question is, how does Weapon Finesse interact with disarms, trips, and sunders. Here are a few possible interpretations:
(1) You can simply use Weapon Finesse, as it is an attack roll with a weapon, when making a disarm, trip, or sunder attempt with a finesse weapon,
(2) You can use Weapon Finesse, as it is providing a bonus to the attack roll from a feat, which is applicable here, or
(3) You CANNOT use Weapon Finesse, as it is not providing a literal bonus (in the sense that weapon focus provides a flat +1 bonus, but Weapon Finesse is a swap, not a bonus) and so is not applicable here.

What are people's thoughts here?

To my mind, this does not completely negate the need for agile maneuvers, which would apply to all combat maneuvers, not just these three.

Lastly, at the risk of making this even more complicated, is the following:

Blog post again wrote:
There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).

So if Weapon Finesse is applicable when using a finesse weapon, and reposition and drag can be delivered with a trip weapon, then would someone repositioning with a whip be able to apply weapon finesse to a drag or reposition attempt?

8 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So here is Crane Riposte:

Crane Riposte wrote:
Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent’s attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected.

And Crane Wing:

Crane Wing wrote:

Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.

And here is Total Defense:

Total Defense wrote:
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can't make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

So Crane Wing lets you deflect a melee attack while fighting defensively or using full defense; Crane Riposte gives you an AoO when you do so; but Total Defense precludes taking attacks of opportunity.

Am I correct, then, in saying that Crane Riposte cannot be used in conjunction with the Total Defense action? It just seems so counter to the idea of the feats.

So Mickey the Monk and Ricky the Rogue get into a fight with Frankie the FIghter. Frankie knows that these two can run circles around him all day, but if he can just avoid being flanked, his superior BAB and AC will allow him to stay up through a series of full-attack trades and carry the day.

So Frankie comes up with a brilliant plan. They are fighting in a 30'x30' room. On his first round, he runs to the corner, and refuses to leave. This forces Mickey and Ricky into a situation where they can't possibly get off flanking:

xxxxx (x = wall)

But Mickey has Dimensional Savant:

Dimensional Savant:
While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.

And Ricky has Gang Up:

Gang Up:
You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.

Can Mickey use his Dimensional Savant to flank as follows:


Allowing Ricky to attack from here:


with flanking from Gang Up? Dimensional Savant says that you "provide flanking," which it seems like should mean he threatens:

Flanking wrote:
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Can the Mickey and his Dimensional Savant alter-ego qualify as the two allies for the purposes of Gang Up?

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Am I missing something here?

The feat says:

Disengaging Feint wrote:

You can feint to disengage from combat.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint.
Benefit: As a standard action, use Bluff to feint against
an opponent. Instead of denying that opponent his
Dexterity bonus to AC, a successful feint allows you to
move up to your speed without provoking an attack of
opportunity from the opponent you feinted for leaving
the square you start in.

So it lets you, as a standard action, feint against a target and if it works then you don't provoke an AoO from them for moving out of the square you are currently in.

Compare this to the withdraw action.

Withdraw: Full-round action (or standard if you are limited). Move double speed. Don't provoke from anyone for leaving the square you are in. No check needed.

Feat: Standard action (leaving your move action free). Move single move speed, but can double move by burning your move action too. Don't provoke from one guy for leaving the square you're in. Needs a check.

So it looks like all the feat gets you is the ability to use your move action for something else, but you are giving up it working against everyone who threatens your current square, and it requires a check, and you are burning a feat on this...

Am I missing something to make this not useless?

So one of our players is a fighter whose backstory is that his beloved grandfather was also an adventurer. For his past three birthdays, the grandfather gave the fighter one of his three weapons -- a longsword, warhammer, and rapier, all masterwork. Three months ago, the grandfather died, and the fighter began his adventuring career. The idea is that he will use these three weapons for the entirety of his career, rather than swapping them out for whatever weapon happens to drop, and will pay to get them enchanted as he gets the money.

The issue is that we just got a +1 cold iron longsword, and clearly the fighter is the best one to use it, but he doesn't want to stop using his grandfather's weapons either.

Switching over to a cold iron weapon has pretty obvious advantages, but he then loses the flavor of it being his grandfather's sword. Ideas we came up with to get around this:

(1) Allow him to forge the blades together, and DM Fiat that it doesn't cause the cold iron to lose it's effectiveness.
(2) Separate the two blades from their hilts and attach the cold iron blade to his grandfather's hilt.

Any other ideas from the community? Thanks!