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216 posts. Organized Play character for Herald.


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Scarab Sages

Ross Byers wrote:
I've adjusted your character's name.

Much thanks, Ross.

Scarab Sages

K Neil Shackleton wrote:

I think this is a misunderstanding of the wording.

My understanding of how it works (and I hope Mark will correct me if I'm mistaken):

Season 3 - 1 PA from Faction mission, 1 PA from completion goal
Season 0 - 1 PA from Faction mission, add 1 PA for mission goal
Season 1 or 2 - There are 2 Faction missions, which are still where the 2 PA are coming from. However, to keep it the same as new scenarios, it will be as if one of those Faction Missions was the mission goal. You do not get a 3rd PA for completing the mission.

Bottom line, it doesn't matter which is which. You get 2 missions, which you can complete for a maximum of 2 PA.

I'd would agree with one exception.

There are a few Season 0 scenarios that have 2 ration goals, when that happens, apply the Season 1 or 2 concept.

Scarab Sages

Paz wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
1832-3 Has my name instead of Banti, my character's name and it's messing with my posting information. Is this the right place to post this Correction or should I post this somewhere else?

Can't you just go to My Pathfinder Society, click 'edit' next to the relevant character, then edit the character name field?

Sorry if you've already tried that and it's a deeper problem; just trying to help if I can.

Yes, i tried that Paz, thanks for suggestion though.

Scarab Sages

1832-3 Has my name instead of Banti, my character's name and it's messing with my posting information. Is this the right place to post this Correction or should I post this somewhere else?

Scarab Sages

meabolex wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm not following you. If you read whole post I think you'll find that I agree with you.
I did read your post and generally did pretty much agree with it -- it's just that one point I was commenting on (:

Ah...Failed my perception check.

Scarab Sages

meabolex wrote:
Quote:
Except that the Core Rule Book explains that alignment is a guide for roleplaying.

How is this incompatible with:

Quote:
A character's alignment is a reflective attribute that doesn't define behavior.
A guide is different than a straitjacket.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. If you read whole post I think you'll find that I agree with you.

Perhaps i could make this clearer.

Alignment is suggestive of behavior, but behavior is not tied to alignment. So it's more than reflexive.

Alignment is not something that happens to you, by choosing actions, a player is molding his characters alignment. They may or may not look to their past actions to form their new actions, or they could make a spur of the moment choice. But I feel that most people, and by extension have a sort of internal consistancy that they live their life by.

Scarab Sages

I like this, and think its fun.

I really like the Alkenstar stuff more and more.

Scarab Sages

Andrew Christian wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

** spoiler omitted **

This encounter will be the least of your worries, I can tell you have an eye for detail, and that's a good thing. Let your players get creative, and remember that this is more of role play encounter rather than combat. Be discriptive as they explore, it will be a chance to stretch your imagination and theirs too. This scenario is an introduction, so try and pique their curiosity. Most of all have fun with it.

Thanks for your well thought out reply Michael. I think treating it as a roleplaying encounter vs. combat is a good idea. I also liked a previous poster's idea about giving the literally 30 minutes real time.

Look forward to meeting you at the Con. You're going to be great!

Scarab Sages

meabolex wrote:
A character's alignment is a reflective attribute that doesn't define behavior.

Except that the Core Rule Book explains that alignment is a guide for roleplaying. So it is in partly a reflective attribute.

And I "partly" very specifically. People grow and change. Characters might realize that they will have to change to adapt to what they want or need. So there is a place where the character is at point A, before he moves to Part B ethically/morally.

Because of this, I understand why Paizo recommends the GM be involved with this and make the call. I don't really need a hard and fast rule to cover the transformation from good to evil. (But I scan understand where some would.)

Some games don't really have a lot of discussions about a players choices. I'm lean towards Paizo's stand point so in my games I like to plant seeds in peoples minds to let them know how their actions feel to them.

Now I know that people might have a real issue with that, but that's explained before the game starts and if they don't like it, then they don't have to play. I don't prevent people from taking actions, but feedback from character actions is primarily the GM's wheelhouse, so when someone summons a "hellhound" I often let them know that they are playing with fire by saying things like "You know your playing with hellfire, but it was so easy to use the power that it was almost exhilarating. You hope no one notices that you enjoyed it as much as you did."

If they keep going down this road, I might pop in a thought of "I wonder how long I can keep doing this before I taint myself."

Somethings should remain in the control of the player and the GM. Not everything need to be slave to the RAW.

Scarab Sages

Andrew Christian wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

Spoiler:
I think that you have a good understanding of the situation. Perception checks are generally a standard action.

[spoiler]They may want to do handle animal check, etc. Basically most checks will be standard actions.

The 30 minutes is mostly for flavor. Its a stick to make the adventures move along. You want the players to be on their toes. If for nothing just to keep the scenario going.

This encounter will be the least of your worries, I can tell you have an eye for detail, and that's a good thing. Let your players get creative, and remember that this is more of role play encounter rather than combat. Be discriptive as they explore, it will be a chance to stretch your imagination and theirs too. This scenario is an introduction, so try and pique their curiosity. Most of all have fun with it.

Scarab Sages

Joseph Caubo wrote:
Why is it that 4 out of the 10 Faction Leader pictures have their noses turned up in the air?

Because most Pathfinders are gnomes. The can't help look up noses.

Scarab Sages

And now in the for the sake of a little levity, I will perform a magic trick.

Nothing up my sleeve....

Hocus, Pocus

Spoiler:
tad a! A smurf!!!!!

Scarab Sages

I'll put this in a spoiler, but I don't really think i need to.

Spoiler:
I understand your concern, but by creating a time limit, it prevents the PCs from running off to get something and then returning. You also have a situation where taking twenty eats away at their time so that's where the rubber hits the road.

Take 20
When a character or creature has plenty of time, and is not faced with threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, he/it can take 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the check, just calculate the result as if the die had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you continue trying until you get it right, and assumes that you will fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).

Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties).

So I don't think you need to tick off all of those rounds, unless you get a very pedantic table (not likely).

Scarab Sages

Skeld wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
As a Mac user I tend to steer clear of Adobe products, as they tend to be a bit... crashy...

That's funny because the particular Apple products you're using right now sound a bit... crashy.

The Far Wanderer wrote:
...there is no Adobe Reader option for iPad. However, there are PDF readers available through Apple's app store (GoodReader for example).

So has anyone checked to see if these new interactive doo-dads crash GoodReader on iPad? If you guys will get my PDFs to me, I'll be happy to check for you.

-Skeld

They are already trying to resolve the issues on the iPad for Inner Sea magic and Brinewall Legacy.

Scarab Sages

Chris Lambertz wrote:

Looking more into this right now.

EDIT: Okay, so I think I've got this narrowed down to what's causing the errors. I'm working on getting the updates applied so this problem doesn't exist for iPad users.

glad to hear this. Please post something when it's worked out.

Scarab Sages

Chris Lambertz wrote:
Thanks for posting. Mark did let me know that some people were still experiencing issues and we did make sure the files were updated this afternoon. Have you tried downloading them again?

I updated at 12:45 PM EST. I'll try again.

[Update] Still having the same problem.

Scarab Sages

This is a note to Chris. I have tried wiping out my PDFs of Brinewall Legacy (single copy) from my MacBook and iPad and downloaded them again from the My Downloads page but I'm still missing my art work when displaying on my iPad. Same goes for the cover of Inner Sea Magic. Mark mentioned that I may have to "re-personalize" those copies. I guess the web server still holds on to a copy of the original files even if you update them?

This still happens in good reader and ibooks. Thanks for your help.

Scarab Sages

I think i agree with TriOmegaZero.

If you want people to see things your way, use diplomacy. Intimidate IMHO is for getting results against their will and they will resent you for it in the long run.

I think even bluff would work better in this situation rather than intimidate.

But I do see your point.

Scarab Sages

Some of my links (new ones) on the download page aren't working. Clicking on them just reloads the page. I can provide info via email. I have tried the links on two PCs.

Scarab Sages

Jesse Brake wrote:
I hate it when DMs force a PC to do something, but I did prod him in the direction I wanted him to go. I hit him a foul black bile that halved his movement as he was going backwards. The doors slammed shut from where they came, but he broke them down. And when he got to the top of the stair case and found the entrance had been bricked over because the site was under construction na dn they guards did in fact have brick and mortar in the very room they found the secret staircase to, he spent the time hammering away at the wall with a maul he stole from the construction site earlier. He just wanted out and short of completely removing gamer choice, he was going to get out.

Coming from someone you used to put together renaissance and pirate festivals I have occaionally point out to people, if thats what your character is, that's fine, but your about to talk yourself out of a job.

You have a simular situation. I'd let that person know that if he's going to keep talking himself out of playing, then your not going to want to keep creating games for him. But also find out if there are somethings that are just out of bounds. Perhaps he was really creeped out and needed an escape hatch. Hard to tell, but let this blow over and then talk it over with him and let him know that he let you down, and find out what it would take to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Scarab Sages

Jesse Brake wrote:

This was in regards to Mok's post in the "Antagonize Fixed?" thread here. It is comment #220.

Mok wrote:
...The freedom of RPGs to "not be like those stupid characters in that horror movie" and endlessly act in highly systematic and rational manners means that dramatic moments flatten out. A good example is the classic "Why didn't the Fellowship just have the eagles drop the ring in Mt. Doom?" I know I'm guilty of it myself. There is this dream of being able to go into a fantasy world and "do everything right" where everything is logically broken down and systematically spammed with rational tactics. The premise and tone of the fantasy world strains and might even fall apart under this approach. I think that a big part of it is that players traditionally have this abstract control over their character that lends more to this approach, and moves away from being able to emulate dramatic characterizations and events in stories.

I was running a one shot game this weekend as half of my gaming group was out of town. We're doing KM currently and decided to have some Call of Cthulhu fun on Candlemere Island since a PC built a prison out there (See Rivers Run Red's entry on the Candlemere Tower).

The two PC's (who were playing evil prisoners) broke out and found the former abbey of the monks who degenerated to worshiping the Old Ones underneath the prison. I had described some strange happenings ala The Whisperer in Darkness and The Fungi From Yuggoth and had two encounters, one with a zombie pigeon swarm and a howler.

One of my PCs, who is a very analytical Navy guy, decided after those two not-so-incredibly-dangerous-but-scary encounters that "no sane person would keep exploring or continue to try and escape" and marched his ass back to the prison overhead and turned himself in, much to the unhappiness of the other PC who wanted to keep going.

Navy guy was...

Well this is sort of not the right place to discuss home games, but I'll respond. Basically if your adventure is on a track. Sometimes players don't like the "railroad" type of adventure and will pull back when they feel that it isn't in their character's best interest.

You could put a situation where turning back isn't in their best interest. That's a stick to get people to move along the track, but I'd also put a carrot (other than freedom) to encourage them to move forward. Since your doing something that is in the spirit of horror, and the character is a cannibal I'd consider having the character get dreams about some evil deity like Norgorber or Rovagug pushing him forward to be free to become their pawn.

Granted that this is a one shot, but even disaster movie characters have long term plans and that is what pushes the plot along. They want to escape to get back to that life. It sounds to me that the players character could get back to what he wanted in the prison hence he had nothing to lose by going back. You need to find away to make sure that going back was never an option. Perhaps when the player started to pull back, you needed to do some sort of flashback as to why it would be better to escape, than go back.

OK, so that's a lot of criticism. It is meant to be constructive, honestly it sounds like you cooked up some fun. It can be rather disappointing when a player cannot motivate their self to continue, but you have hit a wall that all GMs and game designers have all hit.

Scarab Sages

There is a necropolis und the city. Not a lot of stuff written about it. The Dark Waters PFS scenario is set in part of it..

Doesn't the lich have a fear aura that would make existence among the living an issue?

Scarab Sages

San-Chez wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:

Here is the thing to be aware of though, if someone steals/destroys the note, there is little in the way to get your money back. I imagine that the church will only recognize the note as authority to release the funds, but adventurers are a resourceful lot so recovery could happen in a few "magical" ways.

I'm interested in what Mark might say about this. It has a real world historical precedents.

Same in theory if the bag you are holding your gold in get's destroyed most role playing games I have played in ignore this fact

I do get a handy haversack for each of my characters just in case.

Can't argue your point. If I remember, there is a PFS scenario that you actually find a letter of credit as part of the spoils. I won't want to spoil anything so I will avoid naming it.

Anyways, good point none the less.

Scarab Sages

Basically as you can see were this gets to be a grey area. Just casting the spell shouldn't be enoght to change your alignment. But let's say you started to summon these monsters to consort with them, well that might start something on that slide towards evil.

But using evil to fight evil, well I'm not sure I would consider that to be so evil, but it seems to be a bad strategy as good monsters often have the better weapons againt evil.

So basically consult with you GM. Ymmv.

Scarab Sages

Davick wrote:
Gregg Helmberger wrote:
tl;dr
Look man, all I'm saying is that, if some guy came to town and said I can smell the evil in the air and decapitated a buddy of mine. I'd be scared s@!~less, and no amount of, "it's cool, God gave me powers." is gonna change that. It makes no difference if God actually gives people powers or not. I'm not going anywhere near that guy, and neither is anyone I care about. Detecting as evil does NOT mean is totally got an evil scheme cooked up for world domination. If you happen to be an especially miserable person, you may be of an Evil alignment. Doesn't make you firing squad worthy. And then there's the Jimbo guy. Who says (for whatever reason, maybe HE'S evil) "hey God gave me powers too! And look my exgirlfriend is SOOO evil!" See, this isn't a problem if paladins exemplify equal rights to all and due process.

I think you have some good points as well too. And I think that you certainly can run you games like this. To be honest, you have a really good adventure idea there. A demented individual is conducting a witch hunt needs to be stopped before an order of paladins name is ruined.

But hear me out. Your speaking as if you were the NPC. That's ok, it just shows you have a typical level of empathy, healthy even.

But NPCs are NPCs and well Pathfinder is a game so there is always a posibilty that PCs will be able to talk (or something else) their way out of a mess like the one presented. That is if the PC was interested to do so.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is that there each group needs to sort all of these sorts individually. Both of you can be right.

IMHO I think that a palideen of iomedea would be more about procedure and evidence but a paladin of erastle. Would be more about judgement on the spot since the deity is more about rural spaces and not liking the encroachment of cities. Arguably they might bring someone back to a village council to be judged, but I have doubts that it would be very formal. Make of that what you will.

I personally like the idea of paladins of different faiths having different style in the regard. Then again if your playing a paladin at the worldwound I expect you to be twitchy all the time.

Scarab Sages

Gregg Helmberger wrote:
snipped for space

Good points all around. +1

Scarab Sages

Forlarren wrote:
Are you stalking him? Reading over his shoulder? People disagreeing with you isn't people ignoring you.

He wasn't disagreeing with me with the statement just attacking, you might want to read along as well.

Forlarren wrote:
Words have more than one definition, try using your context clues to determine witch one he meant, instead of jumping to conclusions. I haven't seen you going out of your way to back up your rhetoric with research or references. Maybe people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Word derivations don't have more than one definition, its where the word ordinates. Context clues aren't needed. (By the way, which, not witch.) I also would like to point out that I did use his "context clues", as I was pointing out to him, he was mixing his meanings and was pointing out where he was in error. You can disagree with me, that's fine, but don't tell me I don't understand what I'm saying when you can't keep your argument straight.

Logic in relation to ethics is a discipline used to argue the nature of something. Logic in relation to programing is a form of mathematical programing language. Programing a computer is different from learning

Forlarren wrote:

Funny how you never back up your accusations. Citation needed.

I keep noticing how you cite nothing. Citation needed.

Yea, that's the funny thing, this isn't Wikipedia and I'm no one here is writing in a MLA format. So maybe you should do your own work.

Forlarren wrote:
You are an insufferable bore, your points are random and antagonistic, you dismiss large portions others arguments to pick nits, you don't cite sources, and nothing you have said has lead me to believe you are any more knowledgeable than those you accuse.?

Pot meet Kettle, Kettle meet pot.

Here's the source material you requested. Happy gaming!

WHAT IS ETHICS?

People’s conceptions of ethics depend upon a number of factors, both personal and cultural, so it is impossible to design a clear definition that will please everyone. Some people think first of personal ethics, giving attention to cheating or sexual conduct. Others think first of ethical crises or dilemmas in business, government, or the community.... Ethics is part of the broader field of philosophy. Philosophers try to use logic and reason to find answers to a wide variety of human questions, from the nature of reality or knowledge to the meaning of truth, to differing conceptions of beauty. In ethics, we try to use logic and reason to find answers to difficult moral questions. But more specifically, this book emphasizes applied ethics, which is the actual use of moral standards of behavior to make decisions about human problems.
(Ethics Applied Edition 6.0 for St Petersburg College, 5th Edition. Pearson Learning Solutions p. 21).
<vbk:9780558805524#outline(8.2)>

Logic programming link

The terms ethics and morals come from Greek and Latin terms having to do with behavior, culture, and habits. Moral originated from the Latin word morè, which meant something like “the way people are.” Ethics, on the other hand, came from the Greek word ethos, meaning “the way things should be.”
(Ethics Applied Edition 6.0 for St Petersburg College, 5th Edition. Pearson Learning Solutions p. 22).
<vbk:9780558805524#outline(8.2)>

Scarab Sages

San-Chez wrote:


I conceive that I carry letters of credit representing my wealth. Most of the physical gold sits in the Church of Abadar

I think that you might be on to something there. I would ask your GM to allow you to "buy" a letter of credit from the church and any place that there is a church of Abbadar exists you can redeem it.

There would be an entry on your chronicle that you bought it, and your GM should sign off on it. (his initials) The put the information on your sheet. Here is the thing to be aware of though, if someone steals/destroys the note, there is little in the way to get your money back. I imagine that the church will only recognize the note as authority to release the funds, but adventurers are a resourceful lot so recovery could happen in a few "magical" ways.

I'm interested in what Mark might say about this. It has a real world historical precedents.

Scarab Sages

FallofCamelot wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:


I’m pretty sure that many of the players in the western world would object to the loss of freedom a monarchy imposes and institutional slavery that is indentured servitude, serfdom and actual slavery, if they were actually subjected to it, and yet the Pathfinder game has it.
A constitutional monarchy with strong checks in power, isn't necessarily any more than a flavorful change from America's democracy. Britain (from where we got our democrati blueprints), Norway, and Sweden are some examples that come to mind. Actually given that these nations aren't crippled with a lockjaw duopoly they might be said to be more democratic than our own country.
As a citizen of Britain I would say we have just as much of a duopoly as America.

Once again, I said monarchy, not constitutional monarchy. The Magna Carta wasn't created just because everyone was in a good mood, it was created because citizens wanted rights. Granted it was a subset of citizens, (freemen, not serfs) but you get the point. Let's not forget that there was a rebellion prior to the creation of the charter.

And the primary purpose of the Magna Carta was to ensure that the state didn't have the right to punish citizens beyond what was the law of the land. i.e. General state sponsored oppression. That is my original point.

I should state that I'm not trying to single out Brittan or anyone else, and I consider the Magna Carta to be one of the more enlightened acts of the age. But facts are facts, Democracy is preferable to Monarchy. I will cede the point that constitutional monarchy can be in fact be just as preferable when rights or the people are guaranteed. Let me not insult my fellows across the pond.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:


I’m pretty sure that many of the players in the western world would object to the loss of freedom a monarchy imposes and institutional slavery that is indentured servitude, serfdom and actual slavery, if they were actually subjected to it, and yet the Pathfinder game has it.
A constitutional monarchy with strong checks in power, isn't necessarily any more than a flavorful change from America's democracy. Britain (from where we got our democrati blueprints), Norway, and Sweden are some examples that come to mind. Actually given that these nations aren't crippled with a lockjaw duopoly they might be said to be more democratic than our own country.

Didn't say constitutional monarchy, I said "monarchy". Big difference.

Scarab Sages

Malagant wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Malagant, you seem to be on a crusade to derail this thread.

I'm sorry you can't see how my posts in this thread support each other, but derailing? No, not intentionally anyway...

Quote:
You just can't grab a definition of morals and ethics from an online dictionary to prove your point.

Explain to me why I can't please.

Quote:
Moral originated from the Latin word morè, which meant something like “the way people are.” Ethics, on the other hand, came from the Greek word ethos, meaning “the way things should be.”

The origin of the terms is irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

Quote:
And your explanation of logic is once again wrong.

In what way? Please explain.

Quote:
Programing is frontloaded behavior. It doesn’t allow for learning, it doesn’t allow for learning. Granted Humans have some autonomic reflexes, but that’s not logic. It’s not learned.

You missed the point. I said they were programmed using logic. What do you think a computer program is?

Quote:
Not every though that goes on in a person’s mind is “critical thought”. That’s reflective thought where you take an action and you measure the outcome from all perspectives, something that can’t be done all the time, day in day out, 24/7.

You assume that the application of logic is a conscious effort. I'm not saying that every thought is critical in nature. It is interesting that you should inadvertently agree with me here though (note the bolded section).

Quote:
Philosophers try to use logic and reason to find answers to a wide variety of human questions, from the nature of reality or knowledge to the meaning of truth, to differing conceptions of beauty, much like the discussion we are having now. Logic implies introspection and reflection, it is more than just a reaction.

Granted, but somehow you missed the point that ties into the discussion.

Quote:
But once you have moved into the world of play, you are moving into
...

It's amazing how you don't even read through the entire post and yet try (and fail) to pick it apart.

If the definitions are important, then the derivations are important especially when the are the underpinnings of the discussion we are having.

You can argue that logic is not a conscious effort, but thousands of years of philosophy argues that it is. You even confuse how computer logic works.

Computer logic is a mathematical programing language, that is only used in a sub sect of programing.

You're just throwing up flack to defend your points. You have a fundamental misunderstanding or logic, ethics, morality, computers, computer programing, and debate.

Have you considered running for office?

Scarab Sages

gbonehead wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Jeff Cope wrote:

It's a dream sequence I presume, but check this out:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?pid=9184&pg=4

I would have to agree with you there Jeff. That's kinda awesome.

edit: fixed the link.

Fixed the fix :)

I bow to the superior fixer!

Scarab Sages

Jeff Cope wrote:

It's a dream sequence I presume, but check this out:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?pid=9184&pg=4

I would have to agree with you there Jeff. That's kinda awesome.

edit: fixed the link.

Scarab Sages

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Wait for the Ultimate Magic book. There is a "Gun Mage" type character coming out soon, so I'm sure that enchanted guns can't be far behind.
Um... what? Ultimate Magic came out two months ago. You mean Ultimate Combat, or another book with more gunslinger stuffs?

Sorry your right Ultimate Combat is what I should thave typed.

Scarab Sages

Evil Lincoln wrote:
Malagant wrote:
I find it very difficult to view any society as lawful when the laws don't apply equally to everyone. High and low, rich and poor.
LE?

+1

Scarab Sages

Malagant wrote:


As you can see they are co-dependent terms while ethics can comprise a different system of morally accepted behavior, for the most part they are principles that transcend culture and nations. For instance, the moral behavior of a devil worshiping politician will be much different than a God-fearing...

Malagant, you seem to be on a crusade to derail this thread. You just can't grab a definition of morals and ethics from an online dictionary to prove your point.

Moral originated from the Latin word morè, which meant something like “the way people are.” Ethics, on the other hand, came from the Greek word ethos, meaning “the way things should be.”

Ethics are many schools of thought and while some build upon others, many fork away from one another and go off in other directions That’s why someone like Ayn Rand differ from someone like John Locke and both of them are very far from Socrates.

And your explanation of logic is once again wrong.

Programing is frontloaded behavior. It doesn’t allow for learning, it doesn’t allow for learning. Granted Humans have some autonomic reflexes, but that’s not logic. It’s not learned.

Not every though that goes on in a person’s mind is “critical thought”. That’s reflective thought where you take an action and you measure the outcome from all perspectives, something that can’t be done all the time, day in day out, 24/7.

Philosophers try to use logic and reason to find answers to a wide variety of human questions, from the nature of reality or knowledge to the meaning of truth, to differing conceptions of beauty, much like the discussion we are having now. Logic implies introspection and reflection, it is more than just a reaction.

But once you have moved into the world of play, you are moving into fiction. It’s not a truth, or a certainty and since all players perceive the fiction from a total different perspectives based on their personal perception filters, you are far from logic.

Now if you want to start another thread about this concept, feel free, otherwise could you please join us on the thread topic.

Scarab Sages

HappyDaze wrote:
Did I just see Galt referred to as an example of a a civilized land used to lend strength to the argument that legal systems in Golarion are healthy?

Educated, yes, civilized no.

My example was one about advancemnent in social levels, not that they are a paragon of anything but chaos.

It's been mentioned in different texts that the same philosophers that influenced Andoran to revolt were the same in Galt. Galt is sort of what would happen if the French Revolution if it never stopped.

And I'm not sure that I said that any of the legal systems were "healthy". I think I said that the systems were more advanced.

But I'm pretty sure your just giving me a ribbing.

Scarab Sages

Wait for the Ultimate Magic book. There is a "Gun Mage" type character coming out soon, so I'm sure that enchanted guns can't be far behind.

Scarab Sages

Set wrote:
Purplefixer wrote:
Natural cannot be defined as unnatural. Does not scan.

Nothing that exists can be defined as unnatural, actually.

If undead, demons, angels, magic, etc. exist in a setting, then they are natural parts of that cosmology.

Like black holes or ebola, they may not be terribly welcome or *fun* parts of that cosmos...

But spirits and souls, requiring no food, requiring no animation by external energy sources, and not subject to breaking down or entropic decay, are inherently more stable and self-maintaining than corporeal existence.

Flesh and blood bodies, in the game setting, are empowered by positive energy, making them incapable of surviving without energy from another dimension animating their bodies, exactly like undead. Like ghouls and vampires, the living cannot survive by this 'unnatural' animating force alone, but must also kill and feed to maintain this 'unnatural' existence. (Liches cheat by using magic to get around this need, making them the undead equivalent of a living person wearing a ring of sustenance.)

If a flesh and blood living creature was indeed 'natural' to the 'natural world,' it would be like an elemental or an outsider, not requiring energy from another dimension to animate it, and being in constant need of tearing apart other living things and consuming them to stave off inevitable entropic decay. The living are in a constant state of rot, as their unnatural existence is always breaking down, and requires constant repair.

Instead of being stable and eternal, in harmony with their native planes of existence, like elementals and outsiders, the bodies of the living in Golarion/Greyhawk/the Realms are under constant assault by the natural world, almost as if the natural world *was rejecting their presence.*

Indeed, to the angels and devils, mortal life itself might be seen as nothing more than a larval stage, transitory and practically irrelevant in the great scheme of things, as, to them, only the stable and 'natural'...

Scarab Sages

Stereofm wrote:
Andarion wrote:

Back onto the original topic.

Given: Paladin walking down a street in a town/city. Stranger who looks like a beggar approaches reaching out his hand. Paladin warns/intimidates stranger not to get closer. Stranger ignores threat and comes closer. Paladin draws sword, kills stranger.

Why is it that in the real life scenario the paladin is a soldier? Simple, he does NOT have jurisdiction to enforce the laws of this town. He is an adventurer, a vagrant. Now yes, since this is a fantasy setting he has more leeway on his actions, but he not a guard, and therefore is not to be compared to a police officer.

This brings us to the first reason he should lose his powers, he is not the lawful authority of this area. Taking law into your own hands to this extent, chaotic.

Not that this really has anything to do with the ethics of the situation, Cheliax is far beyond medieval, closer to age of reason IMHO. Your own campaign may vary. I'm judging my thoughts on this from the Inner Sea Guide. Cheliax, Andoran, Taldor, Ustalav, and Galt (perhaps more) all sort of fall into this sort of time frame. Many of these countries have printing presses, have philosophers that more inline with age of reason. I could go on, but you get my point. Lets just say that were beyond your typical medieval mindset.

There is some information that ties into the Council of Thieves

Spoiler:
Not everyone who lives in Cheliax is a devil worshiper, and still venerate good deities, and as Iomedae was born in Cheliax, I think many people would be shocked by this event. The government frowns on murder and enforces it much like other nations. Murder breaks the order of society and a paladin breaking that order is an opportunity for the authorities to prove that they are the legitimate authority. Lastly popular entertainments in Cheliax such as operas and plays like to portray paladins as well meaning fools and buffoons.

So it may be possible that the GM might have had the "pickpocket" think that the "buffoon" wouldn't actually pull his weapon as he was just full of bluster, only to learn that he shouldn't believe everything he sees.

Most of what I'm drawing on is from Council of Thieves.

Scarab Sages

I think that you can make the argument that it is enough. I'm not entirely sure of all the circumstances o f the Paliden's actions, so I wouldn't want to go with a hard and fast rule.

In my opinion, a justice with mercy approach would have better suited his actions.

One thing I need clearing up. If you are the player, from the posting that you just made, it rather sounds like you want this to happen, is that right?

Scarab Sages

That's not a bad idea, but I think I would lean towards bless myself.

Scarab Sages

Would a smurphing make people feel better?

Scarab Sages

I'd say feeling comes from gut instinct. But that's not logic. You can't mixup instinct and logic. The two different things.

But your last sentence says it all. You're mixing up ethics with morality and basically it would seem that we are living in two different worlds. My world has a whole slew of colors than just black or white.

I have to say you have a very twisted idea of what logic is.

Scarab Sages

Malagant wrote:

Quote:

I might be misreading you as well, and the reason I even participate in this argument, is because I believe strongly in the right of all of us to play the games we want and to portray all kinds of characters, without getting blamed in real life of actually having the same views as these characters.

I think you are misreading his response, but still thank you for lending a comment. :)

Nope, he hit it right on the head.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Forlarren wrote:
Snip

Wow, touched a nerve didn't I.

OK, I was going to rebut this point for point, but the fact of the matter is that is just a waste of time. There is just no way that every choice a player makes in a game is based on their own personal ethics. It not an argument you can prove. Many people will make choices because it feels right. Many people will make choices because it will be less risky than others. Hell a lot of people will make choices because they think that it might be fun, but not all choices are logical. My argument is not specious.
As to of your Paladin “participating” in slavery or not, I can’t even begin to understand your point. I have no idea if you use Paizo’s setting or not, or one that’s a home brew, but if you exist in a society that has it, welcome aboard you are participating.
Find me anyone who has documented proof that “Lawful Good” is Enlightened Absolutism. I would like to have a look at Voltaire’s’ character sheet, I understand he could be a bit of a munchkin.
But here is the kicker, you can suspend your disbelief to ethically allow the excesses of a monarchy, but you can’t suspend it that someone else might have a different interpretation of a paladin.
And I have to admit, you are the only person I have ever met you started roleplaying as an exercise in Logic and creative fantasy. Hell I was playing it for fun.
Dude just like everything else in the world, everybody brings different things to the table. Very few people will be just like you. Ethics is not one road, but many roads.

Scarab Sages

Kyle Baird wrote:
Doug Miles wrote:
Advice
Man that sounds like a lot of work! Who has time to do all that?!

Go to your table Kyle!

Jeez, give a guy his fifth star and he thisnks that he can just interupt things.

Oh, I'm bing told that he can do that. Hmm who knew.

On a serious note. If you cna have you maps predrawn, that helps too. Having the actual flip mats and map packs works better. DOesn't seem like it will save your voice, but the less explaining of what the map is trying to represent helps cut down on chatter.

Scarab Sages

Doug Miles wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:


Yes, that means that the church of Asmodaeus could draw paralleles to the Catholic Church. Let's not go there.

It's not like Cheliax is involved in some kind of Spanish Inquisition...[wait for it]

Um, excuse me, I have a fluffy chair and here for a ....Para,...Para, Paracountess???? Can anyone sign for this?

Scarab Sages

Mark Moreland wrote:
Skeld wrote:
ElyasRavenwood wrote:
What kind of rewards might there be? ... How are they planning to do this?
Mark Moreland is going to give a big hug to every player of an Andoran character he meets at GenCon, possible beyond.
Nope! There's enough exposure to germs at GenCon as it is. No hugs from me will make it even more likely I get sick while there.

So hugs will actually make you healthier....? Personally I think your taking a risk here Mark.

How about a "Hale and Hearty Handshake" from Mark. Granted it he might have a hand damp from antibacterial gel, but it's a firm handshake.

Scarab Sages

Malagant wrote:
I could not disagree more. Where do our ideas of right and wrong come from when applied in a game? How do we know what is good and what is evil in that context? They come from the world we live in. We apply what we have learned from the real world to the worlds of role-playing fantasy. Role playing games are really nothing more than simulations we run in our imaginations that we share collectively with a group of friends. Simulations based on logic derived from experiences we have in the real...

This is a logical fallacy. There is a huge leap here to be made that we take what we have learned here and apply them to ethical choices in the game. And it begs the question of what sort of ethics does every gamer uses and since roleplaying games are about portraying a identity that is not yourself, players often adopt an ethical code that is not their own.

I’m pretty sure that many of the players in the western world would object to the loss of freedom a monarchy imposes and institutional slavery that is indentured servitude, serfdom and actual slavery, if they were actually subjected to it, and yet the Pathfinder game has it.

Roleplaying is not based on logic, it is a safe creative space we put ourselves in to see what it would be like to be someone or something else and often we adapt a ethic/thought process/environment/abilities/ect that is different than are own.

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