Berkanin Ardoc

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So I'm gonna start this by acknowledging this is a VERY meta complaint because the Daikyu bow is a Tian weapon and to be used in either a themed campaign or a "strange man in a strange land" character build BUT, mechanically, its a terrible choice and no Range/Archery Focused character would ever pick it, here's why.

First its a Advanced, uncommon weapon. The uncommon is easy enough to get around its mostly a theme gate that your GM can allow or disallow. However, Advanced is a hard one, and a game mechanic gate. Currently, as far as I can tell (Im no expert) there are only 2 ways into proficiency with a non-racial advanced weapon, that is you are a fighter and you start with trained proficiency with all advanced weapons, or you have martial weapon proficiency and spend a general feat to get weapon proficiency (pick a advanced weapon). At first level the non-fighter path to this is Versatile heritage human in a martial class (Barbarian, Champion, Ranger, Swashbuckler) however Barbarians and Swashbucklers are really melee focused combatants, and a champion is going to use their deity's weapon almost exclusively and no one spends feats on a secondary weapon...so Fighter or Versatile Heritage Human Ranger. But the catch is, if your a fighter you have expert proficiency in in Simple and Martial weapons, and only Trained in Advanced so you start with a 2 less attack bonus vs a martial Longbow or shortbow for instance, and this is a deficit that scales your whole career unless you burn a CLASS feat to make them parity at level 6 (probably eschewing triple shot for better proficiency), and if you take the general feat path to proficiency, you are also only Trained, and the big problem there is that proficiency never improves, you will only ever be trained.

Second, the Daikyu is only Advanced and Uncommon, it has no other traits. long and short bows are both deadly D10, and their composite versions have propulsive. The Daikyu also has a shorter range than a longbow (80ft vs 100ft) despite by its description being a larger bow than a longbow. Generally, Advanced weapons are just that, advanced, and offer some sort of interesting mechanic or more useful traits than a simple or martial weapon to compensate for the feat investment. The only thing the Daikyu has going for it is that it does longbow damage (on normal successes), doesn't suffer the volley 30ft trait that longbows do and it splits the difference between a short and long bow while mounted and is useable, but only to the left side of the mount.

Some may argue that the mounted usability is a big deal for what is essentially a longbow, I don't think so. I don't know about all of you but mounted combat in my experience is a vanishingly rare occurrence, in ~18 years of playing ttrpgs I can count the mounted combats on one hand and everyone I've talked to has similar experiences. And even then, its only useable mounted on the left side of the mount.

The second argument I hear bubbling is the "volley" trait that Daikyu don't suffer, admittedly this is a much bigger deal. I don't have a 2nd addition adventure path handy, so I used my 1e Rise of the rune lords campaign and did some research, in the first module there are ~30 scripted encounters, I looked at the provided maps and of those 30 fights 21 of them are in areas smaller than 30ft across, 9 of them have enough space a archer could potentially get farther than 30ft away and only 3 where the range increment on a bow could even matter. Despite the fact that a longbow would take the penalty from volley 60-80% of the time Diakyu still falls short because it lacks the deadly trait or propulsive (most characters could get into a comp longbow by 2nd-3rd level) AND the fact in most instances your going to have a lower proficiency in that Daikyu bow which makes a longbow inside 30ft or a Daikyu a wash, and really reinforces the surprising usefulness of a shortbow (which in previous additions sucked).

But I wanted numbers, so I wrote a python script to simulate the bows in different scenarios side by side. let the numbers tell the story. My simulation assumes a Fighter taking the ranged Class feats, with 14 str and 16 dex at 1st level, standing still and using all 3 actions to fire arrows at a enemy of equal CR to his own class level. Each scenario was repeated 1000 times to minimize statistical aberrations. The results are interesting, see below.

Fighter 1, Pointblank Shot:

Longbow (expert Proficiency) inside 30ft vs Goblin Commando
of all Engaged Goblin Commandos inside 30ft, average combat lasted 3.86 rounds but the longest 12 rounds with 9.77 arrows fired on average and at most 34 arrows expended on a single foe. During those fights the average damage dealt per hit was 6.24, the most devastating hit was 26, a critical rate of 0.06, and a total accuracy of 0.37

Shortbow (expert Proficiency) inside 30ft vs goblin Commandos
of all Engaged Goblin Commandos inside 30ft, average combat lasted 3.35 rounds but the longest 10 rounds with 8.19 arrows fired on average and at most 27 arrows expended on a single foe. During those fights the average damage dealt per hit was 5.56, the most devastating hit was 22, a critical rate of 0.11, and a total accuracy of 0.48

Daikyu (trained Proficiency) inside 30ft vs goblin Commandos
of all Engaged Goblin Commandos inside 30ft, average combat lasted 4.1 rounds but the longest 11 rounds with 10.49 arrows fired on average and at most 31 arrows expended on a single foe. During those fights the average damage dealt per hit was 5.36, the most devastating hit was 16, a critical rate of 0.07, and a total accuracy of 0.37

What this shows is the shortbow despite doing less damage, having the deadly d10 trait and better accuracy is important. Proficiency and traits matter. The Daikyu as the worst performer of the 3 in the best possible scenario for it, doing slightly less damage on average than a shortbow and a full damage less over time than a longbow.

below in those 9 times out of 30 a longbow can get into a intermediate range, more than 30 ft. but no more than 2 strides to stay near enough allies if needed, lets say 50ft. a long bow becomes king of the hill and its all about accuracy.

Longbow intermediate Range 50ft. vs Goblin Commando
of all Engaged Goblin Commandos at 50ft, average combat lasted 2.91 rounds but the longest 9 rounds with 6.84 arrows fired on average and at most 25 arrows expended on a single foe. During those fights the average damage dealt per hit was 6.61, the most devastating hit was 25, a critical rate of 0.11, and a total accuracy of 0.5

From there I was curious, a couple levels pass, characters upgrade and at 3rd level the ranged first fighter has likely prioritized upgrading to the composite versions of their bows (where applicable, sorry daikyu) and probably gotten a potency rune installed. So what does it look like then, lets say vs. a CR3 grizzly bear?

Fighter 3, potency rune, point blank shot vs. Grizzly Bear

Composite Longbow inside 30ft
of all Engaged Grizzly Bears inside 30ft, average combat lasted 5.92 rounds but the longest 16 rounds with 15.89 arrows fired on average and at most 46 arrows expended on a single foe. During those fights the average damage dealt per hit was 7.78, the most devastating hit was 28, a critical rate of 0.08, and a total accuracy of 0.41

Composite shortbow inside 30ft
of all Engaged Grizzly Bears inside 30ft, average combat lasted 5.34 rounds but the longest 11 rounds with 14.16 arrows fired on average and at most 32 arrows expended on a single foe. During those fights the average damage dealt per hit was 6.9, the most devastating hit was 24, a critical rate of 0.12, and a total accuracy of 0.51

Daikyu inside 30ft
of all Engaged Grizzly Bears inside 30ft, average combat lasted 7.83 rounds but the longest 16 rounds with 21.7 arrows fired on average and at most 46 arrows expended on a single foe. During those fights the average damage dealt per hit was 5.43, the most devastating hit was 16, a critical rate of 0.08, and a total accuracy of 0.41

and again in those 9/30 times

Composite Longbow intermediate Range ~ 50ft
of all Engaged Grizzly Bears at 50ft, average combat lasted 4.58 rounds but the longest 11 rounds with 11.83 arrows fired on average and at most 31 arrows expended on a single foe. During those fights the average damage dealt per hit was 8.17, the most devastating hit was 28, a critical rate of 0.13, and a total accuracy of 0.52

I think you get the point. I also calculated at a range of 120ft which is about the biggest map I saw in mod 1 of RotRL but the results are similar enough to above (just lower accuracy) I didn't include them. The Take away is the Daikyu starts the game weak and that deficit never gets better, it offers half of a benefit in a rare style of combat and as the numbers above show, is better served by a short bow which is less bulky, less expensive and has a lower bar to entry.

So how do you all think the Daikyu could be fixed? My thoughts are make it uncommon martial (like a katana) and give it the deadly trait, but maybe that's too much. In any case the Devs should give it some love in an errata because right now, its trash.

regards,


In my games I just tell them what items are worth, appraise is a garbage skill and why 2e folded it into craft. And I have only had 1 player EVER that wanted to dicker over EVERY item, they loved the 1e haggle rules and wanted every copper. meanwhile the rest of the party is bored to tears and the appraisals just ended up happening by text between sessions. I hated it, most of them hated it. so I ruled that if they can ID the item with spellcraft or in 2e's case Craft or other appropriate means, they know what it is and what its worth, and they always know what the worth of mundane items there and common their level or less is worth. I only keep the price of strange, rare or story plot items secret as that encourages them to research it some more, a good example is in the 1e RotRL campaign they came across a lost crown of a dwarven dynasty, its worth a certain amount as art but if they get it back to the owner there is a much larger reward, so I gave them a, "you've never seen a royal crown before and are uncertain exactly how to appraise it, and know enough its worth may be subjective based on its origin, but requires more research", if they try to hock it Ill just give them the listed worth as Art when they do.

my 2 cents.


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This is a good discussion. I think that it was silly to make these canned Codes, LG (paladin), NG (Redeemer), CG (Freedom) etc. look at lawful good for example, only Iomedae is the classic Paladin, sword and shield destroy the evil knight of good trope that the LG Code enforces, the other strictly LG deities Torag and Erastil really aren't that gung-ho even if the LG tenets sorta line up, but the further from the traditional Paladin you stray the muddier that water gets, NG, sure Sarenrae is the Arch-typical redeemer but Shelyn really doesn't care, she's just about art and love, go all the way through evil, LE is tyranny, really that's just Asmodeus's racket, Zon-Kuthon just wants pain. it seems they picked one of the gods at each Tenet alignment and said 'yep, this is everything this alignment means'.

What would have made more sense and made the Neutral alignments trivial is if each god simply had a Champion Code section just after their domains and such. then we wouldn't have to scratch our head about how the codes and tenets really line up, it would be as simple as weaponized domain flavor/ reaction vs anathema.

Champion of Zon-Kuthon, generically being all about oppressive tyranny instead is about pain, darkness and void, their reaction could be some along the lines of "if an enemy with 15ft heals a ally cause some damage and they are sickened 2 with pain. which for ZK is more more flavorful than causing them pain/damage after refusing your authority.

OR a Champion of Pharasma, if attacked by undead or a negative energy attack gain resistance 2 + level against attacker for the next round etc.

overall I like that they opened champions up but this slow trickle of one size fits all rules around it is kinda frustrating.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Bannondorf wrote:
Im using the stat block for commoner straight out of the 2E Game Masters Guide. Human Commomers have +6 to fort...+2 con, then trained +2, level probaly +1, not sure where the last +1 comes for but they seem to treat NPCs more like monsters than PC's. For Elves I -1 con mod, and Dwarves +1 con mod, making them +5 and +7 respectively. and all had 10hp as per the stat block.

Awesome! That makes the number very useful indeed.

NPCs are treated exactly like monsters, which means that their stats are indeed figured independently of each other.

That said, Fort is their Good save, and they're level -1, so if you want to figure backwards you can (they get +0 from level, +4 from Expert Fort, +2 Con, which works out perfectly...this assumption of level being +0 also works out perfectly for Will and Reflex being Trained). Most monsters can actually be figured like this, even though that's not how they are actually constructed.

But if using NPCs from the GMG, there are actual guidelines on how to change them for different Ancestries and those don't actually include changing Ability scores or Saves. The three examples are still useful for seeing what difference even one point on Saves makes, but it's worth noting.

Page 204 of the GMG in "Ancestry Adjustments": "You can also give them a ancestry feat, or even adjust their ability scores and skills to reflect their new ancestries strengths and weaknesses.", so no, you don't have to, dealers choice, this dealer chose to reflect those scores and there effect on the npc.

however as you mentioned the above figures could be used for characters that have slightly more or less con as well.


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rainzax wrote:

Dotting.

This isn't, per chance, inspired by recent real life events?...

*cough* no...of course I would not calculate that certain unnamed real world current events are probally a DC15 with 2day incubation and 5 stages before death *cough*


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

What Save Bonus are you assuming?

Because it should probably be +2 for level 0, but Trained, but you don't say and I'm interested.

Im using the stat block for commoner straight out of the 2E Game Masters Guide. Human Commomers have +6 to fort...+2 con, then trained +2, level probaly +1, not sure where the last +1 comes for but they seem to treat NPCs more like monsters than PC's. For Elves I -1 con mod, and Dwarves +1 con mod, making them +5 and +7 respectively. and all had 10hp as per the stat block.


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The Game Mastery Guide just dropped and because Im a data nerd I wanted to find out how deadly a pandemic of any given transmutable disease affliction would be to the average npc commoner (both npcs and afflictions outlined in the GMG).
So, I wrote a python program that followed the rules as though it was being rolled by a person from infection to survival or death for commoners of Human, Dwarf and Elven heritages (given their different Con modifiers that effect fort). I iterated 10,000 times on each race/disease combo to get a good statistical look at the disease progress, assuming no medical/magical intervention and the following is what I found...

Heritage | kill rate | Average Illness | Longest Illness
Scarlet Fever
Humans| 2.45% 4days 17days
Elves| 4.40% 4days 19days
Dwarves| 1.63% 4days 15days

Filth Fever
Humans| 2.21% 2days 29days
Elves| 4.06% 3days 26days
Dwarves| 1.27% 2days 19days

Tuberculosis
Humans| 4.13% 4weeks 30weeks
Elves| 7.13% 4weeks 37weeks
Dwarves| 2.31% 3weeks 29weeks

Ghoul Fever
Humans| 14.39% 2days 9days
Elves| 19.68% 2days 7days
Dwarves| 11.08% 2days 7days

Ghast Fever
Humans| 23.44% 2days 4days
Elves| 27.99% 2days 4days
Dwarves| 18.90% 2days 4days

Bubonic Plauge
Humans| 18.77% 3days 14days
Elves| 26.30% 3days 11days
Dwarves| 14.64% 3days 13days

Zombie Rot
Humans| 32.75% 2days 7days
Elves| 40.25% 2days 7days
Dwarves| 25.82% 2days 6days

Scarlet Leprosy
Humans| 57.35% 3days 5days
Elves| 63.09% 3days 5days
Dwarves| 52.69% 3days 5days

Choking Death
Humans| 57.23% 5days 15days
Elves| 65.21% 5days 14days
Dwarves| 48.04% 5days 19days

Blinding Sickness
Humans| 65.15% 5days 23days
Elves| 72.22% 7days 20days
Dwarves| 55.08% 5days 25days

Brian Worms
Humans| 94.73% 5days 10days
Elves| 94.68% 5days 9days
Dwarves| 94.98% 6days 10days

What I discovered is small con changes influence survival rate significantly until you get in to dc's you cant expect to ever pass. Additionally diseases that do damage at each stage or are transmitted by damage are particularly deadly to npc commoners given their low hp and presumably slow heal rate.

the numbers above give you a good idea of how serious a outbreak could be a on a city or national scale in your game. Diseases that have longer run times will likely infect more folks than shorter violent diseases as the carriers will interact with more people in there day to days lives over its duration, whereas some diseases like Ghoul fever or Zombie rot would likely start to be contained with the first few days, as soon as people made the connection that the infected dead raise and attack them, they would take precautions, but as in life, some folks would avoid treatment and potentially create reoccurring pockets of infection for the PC's to deal with.

hope you enjoy!


Kinda circling back to this, I get the simpler design philosophy, but guidelines from the devs would be nice. Case in point, the piece of equipment "Spyglass" explicitly says "A typical spyglass lets you see eight times farther than normal"...8 times farther than what? that's awful specific to not be tied to a hard number. If it was a more narrative flavor text like "allows user to see much farther than normal" I would dismiss it. just feels like there is a mechanic there they have yet to release, maybe in the Game Masters Guide.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Bannondorf wrote:

Hey Everyone,

I notice that 2E's monsters no longer list expected treasure OR habitat in their stat block, and seemingly very few mention either of these in their flavor text even. Am I missing something? I realize that 2E has gone to a more narrative sorta game play but it would be nice to narrow creatures down a little based on where they typically are encountered. Also, I understand GM's are to hand pick treasure as appropriate but what types of treasure? a few mention in text that they hoard shiny trinket or some other specific things, but just a note of Standard, Incidental, None, Gems only excreta would be nice. Has anyone seen a place where these are listed or maybe heard a dev speak to this?

thanks,

Are you looking at the online resources or the actual bestiary? The latter has a lot of general guidance on what you're talking about, unless you're looking for more specifics.

at the moment I only have access to online resources, dont own the PDF yet.


Hey Everyone,

I notice that 2E's monsters no longer list expected treasure OR habitat in their stat block, and seemingly very few mention either of these in their flavor text even. Am I missing something? I realize that 2E has gone to a more narrative sorta game play but it would be nice to narrow creatures down a little based on where they typically are encountered. Also, I understand GM's are to hand pick treasure as appropriate but what types of treasure? a few mention in text that they hoard shiny trinket or some other specific things, but just a note of Standard, Incidental, None, Gems only excreta would be nice. Has anyone seen a place where these are listed or maybe heard a dev speak to this?

thanks,


thenobledrake wrote:

This particular sort of thing comes down to a difference in design philosophy: PF1 had these tables because the design philosophy at the time was the maintain maximum compatibility with D&D 3.5, and D&D 3.5 had those tables because the design philosophy was to try and represent real life via game mechanics (which did not even kind of work, as evidenced by the rules having silly results if actually applied).

PF2 design philosophy is focused on making the desired game play experience happen, so it doesn't have any need of these tables.

And thus the difficulty of finding a goblin is not primarily determined by how far away it is hiding, but by factors like the relative ability between the character and the goblin and whether or not the character is looking in the right place (the Seek action is a 30-foot cone, or a 15-foot burst within line of sight - so if the goblin beat your Perception DC with it's stealth check, you actually have to deliberately look for it, and your roll isn't going to matter unless you're checking the right place)

thanks for that, answers much of my question.


Gorbacz wrote:
You can actually see the sun now, which was impossible per default PF1 rules for distance affecting Perception DC.

Very True, lol. Alot of things where impossible (RAW). for the poor perceptionless wizard seeing the or hearing that flying roaring dragon at 200ft was nat 20 or bust.


Hey all,

As I read more and more into 2e I notice certain tables and mechanics are missing. In particular with perception (love everyone gets it now btw), in 1e there was a whole litany of things that affected the perception DC, for instance, each 10ft added +1 to the DC, high imho, but somewhat realistic, as well as hearing being obscured by doors, walls etc. however I no longer see any of these mechanics. Are we to believe that Perception is a flat dc regardless of situation? a goblin hiding 5ft away is just as hard to see as one 100ft away? seems...wrong. Or is there a unspoken rule that the GM is supposed to narratively assign penalties based on the hard, really hard, ridiculously hard +2, +5, +10 sorta way? My concern with the later is with no baseline to know when to assign those it will make checks vary alot from GM to GM and game to game. Did I miss something or is this something that is coming out in the game mastery guide out in February?

thanks,