Bane Of Humanity's page

Thanks everyone. Im new to DMing Pathfinder and I have never run a dragon encounter. Needless to say my ruleing in the situation because the grapple situation did come up.

I ruled for the character to still recieve a saveing throw but take the penalties as listed. I always try to be impartial and fair.

I kinda wish there was rules for ability damage. Because takeing that much acid to the face should take down you CHA alittle bit....just sayin...

Where is a ref when you need one lol

@wraithstrike

You cant use it during the first phase of the grapple

but the rules suggest you can during the maintainence phase of a grapple. In the 2nd round of the grapple you can.

As to the "natural attack" you are correct.

@wraithstrike

I think you missed something.

After you intiate a grapple and succeed

The next round you must spend a standard action to maintain said grapple. In the rule it states that you can also ADD to that maintainance a move, damage, or pin action. (assumeing the victim of the grapples fails to get free)

In the damage section of that list according to the bestiary a dragon specifically because most of the rules in the HANDBOOK are for players to know. It they wish to build characters. That the breathweapon count in this instance as far as dealing damage. IE it would be a natural attack and not a spell or anything like that.

So in effect a dragon after maintaining its grapple could indeed use his breath weapon in conjuction during the maintainence portion of the grapple but NOT during the intial grapple itself during the first round.

This is how Im understanding the text...

Yes, Since in the Bestiary it states the dragon specifically can use his breath weapon while grappling or being grappled.

So as Im reading it correctly then.

When you maintain a grapple you are allowed to Move, damage or pin. If you decide to do damage. A breath weapon falls under that catagory as per the bestiary. As it stats it becomes part of your standard action to maintain a grapple.

Furthermore It would seem that if you Pin you opponent instead you are required to maintain a grapple once again by the time the 3rd round comes up. So if maintaining a pin is the same as maintaining a grapple you could therefore use a breath weapon as part of your standard action in maintaining the pin.

Thus you would not need extra feats as the above people have stated.

My additional question was If a creature is pinned and denied his dex bonus completely does he lose his ability to make a reflex save OR does his simply take a huge penalty?

If am I reading this incorrectly in anyway I hope that someone can point me to the correct way to handle such a situation.

Well I think it becomes a judgement call by this time.

Anything you do doesnt have to have the ability to do non-lethal damage.
It just gives you the option if you want to use a weapon to do non-lethal.

In the case of a breath weapon. It could NOT be considered non-lethal (unless the breath weapon is non-lethal to begin with like gas that makes you sleep etc)

I think the dragons breath weapon as it states is an exception in the sense that it can be used but obviously its not going to do non-leathal damage. But it would help the dragon deal with a say a halfing that is hard to catch or something along those lines. Or for the purpose of holding a hostage and threating to blast them with a breath weapon if the rest do not surrender.

It says that it CAN be... doesnt say that it HAS to be.

@Corbin Thats ok... muhaahha

@Corbin That is what Im trying to figure out yes

Ok, so here is how it would go down

Round 1 Dragon grapples Character

Round 2 Dragon maintains grapple and uses breath weapon as a direct hit and character takes a -4 to his Dex and -2 to his roll for reflex on top of that because you take a -2 on everything you do while grappled (I assume thats correct?)

BUT

if in round 2 I decide to Pin him and then wait for round 3 to use a breath weapon
To maintain a pin is the same as a grapple and then I could as above move, or damage but his negetive would be higher?

Ok hold on

"Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."

"Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC."

If this is the case then In round 2 Part of maintaining a grapple I could do one of the following. Move, damage, or Pin.
So if I decide to damage I could use any natural weapon.
Since it states in the dragon listing that a breath weapon can be used during a grapple.

Am I to understand that in round 2 after maintaining as part of my standard action I can indeed use a breath weapon?

Ok, so just to clearify so I dont do this wrong.

I was under the impression that any rules stated in the bestiary were exceptions. To which I would understand is as you follow the rules for grappling unless it states an exception in another source for a specific creature.

If this is true then a dragon shouldn't need extra feats to grapple round one and then maintain and pin round 2 and breath weapon round 3?

Or breath weapon after maintaining the grapple at round 2?

Well it says in the bestiary in the breath weapon section that a dragon can use a breath weapon during a grapple. So I assume that means that the breath weapon is normally a standard action except in that situation and doesnt require feats to pull it off?

Here is the quote

" Breath Weapon (Su): Using a breath weapon is a standard action. A dragon can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, even if it possesses more than one breath weapon. A breath weapon always starts at an intersection adjacent to the dragon and extends in a direction of the dragon's choice. Breath weapons come in two shapes, lines and cones, whose areas vary with the dragon's size. If a breath weapon deals damage, those caught in the area can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage. The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 dragon's HD + dragon's Con modifier. Saves against various breath weapons use the same DC; the type of saving throw is noted in the variety descriptions. A dragon can use its breath weapon when it is grappling or being grappled. "

And link to where I found it.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/dragon.html#_dragon

Ok here is my question.

If a Dragon Grapples a character and then spends a round to pin the creature. It can then use its breath weapon on said creature.

My question is does the creature get any kind of save while pinned?

Will these sets be just 1 of each size?

Or can we expect say 4 mediums 2 large and 1 huge?

I think that would be nice if it was that way so we can get a small group of smaller dragons in one purchase and not have to get 4 huges to get 4 mediums.

Any thought of adding small to that list?