No technical deaths as of yet. (closing in on the end of AP1)
But, the party has been “defeated” twice. Note that we run a HEAVILY modified campaign that draws on a lot of homebrew plots as well as npcs/plots from Serpent Skull and Rise of the Runelords. We also quite heavily modify the encounters/dungeons we do use to fit we our style of gaming.
First Defeat;
Name: Leonal Skyfall
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Gestalt Warrior of the Holy Light 2/Oracle (Heavens, Clouded Vision)2
Adventure: AP1: Shards of Sin, Search for Natalya
Location: Double Ambush on the streets of Magnimar.
Catalyst: A failed ambush and shortsightedness
The Gory Details:
While exploring Magnimar (which the Paladin/Oracle has yet to see much of due to his Clouded Vision curse) and looking for Natalya the characters had attracted the attention of Terisha and three thugs. As Terisha was also trying to uncover the location of Natalya at this point, and were aware that the players were attempting the same, she was shadowing the players to see if they had more luck in the endeavor. The players eventually caught on, but due to a combination of bad rolls and the clouded vision only saw Terisha and not the thugs she had following a block behind her.
They decided to set an ambush for HER where the Paladin/Oracle would continue on ahead while the Synthesis/Oracle would hide and ambush Terisha as she went past. The players had bad skill and luck at hiding to the effect where Terisha clearly saw what they were up to. She allowed them to separate, sneaked in and attacked the Synthesist/Oracle that was waiting for her. The Paladin/Oracle was at this point too far ahead and could not see what was going on behind him - confusion ensued. Eventually the Paladin/Oracle stumbled back to join the fight and Terisha decided to run away. The Synthesist/Oracle delayed to heal upwhile the Paladin/Oracle gave chase to Terisha. Unfortunately his 30 foot vision did not allow him to see that Terisha ran up to three thugs until he practically ran into all four of them. Players again separated, Terisha and the thugs were able to incapacitate both in turn. The characters were taken to an old Tower Girls hideout and interrogated about their connecetion to Natalya and what they were looking for.Terisha evenetually decided to let them go, sans gear off course, again shadowing them in the hopes that the players would lead to Natalyas whereabouts.
Second Defeat
Note on Background:
Our third player is a Angus, a Thassilonian Cleric/Sorcerer who somewhat survived the fall of Thassilonia and the eons since in stasis before he recently was found by Fenster and united with the group there. Our Crow is heavily modified to reduce the number of encounters somewhat, replace others and fit the entire place more logically into the vision for our campaign. For instance Suzerains faction of devils have moved up a level (and the original inhabitants of that level either deleted or moved up a further level). This enables Suzerin and Baz to control a level each as they fight for supremacy of “little erebus”. Additionally old magic thassilonian gates had been permanently separating the “factions” of the Crow, but when the players had finished the top/Tower Girl inhabited part and wanted to advance they had to force open these gates. The result was that not only did the gate from the Tower Girls and down to the Mites/Spiders/Ants level opened, but so did the one from Mite to Devil and Devil to Derro. The factions not having seen each other before and suddenly finding room to expand or explore have started a dynamic fight for control which the players keep interfering with.
Name: Leonal Skyfall
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Gestalt Warrior of the Holy Light 3/Oracle (Heavens, Clouded Vision)3
Adventure: AP1: Shards of Sin, exploring the Crow.
Location: Ant section of the Crow.
Catalyst: Ants… ants! Oh my god.. ants!
The Gory Details:
The Mites, weakest on the food chain as they are, were already gone by the time our players got to explore the Crow. Their Ants however, stayed behind and enjoyed their autonomy, having somewhat increased in numbers. The players eventually encountered them, after having exhausted much of their resources against Tower Girls and spiders etc. A hasty rush into ant territory led to the party being separated with the Synthesist/Oracle going down. The ants, not realizing they are lacking a queen, were eagerly building a new nest in the south-eastern most room of the level and started carrying the unconscious Synthesist/Oracle there. The other two players tried valiantly to follow, but it took them quite some time to get past the ants. Eventually they, all but empty of resources, followed and tried to rush the remaining ants to get their comrade free. Dice and fate did not want this however, and the Paladin/Oracle went down forcing the Sorcerer/Cleric to run up.. and up.. and up (with ants chasing behind him) until he got to the topmost level where a tower girl whom they had previously incapacited helped him bring the chasing ants down.
He healed up, gathered some resources and went down… only to find the ant nest destroyed, all the remaining ants killed and his friends strangely gone. Luckily, his friends were all right.. in fact they had been “liberated” by a surprisingly friendly flying imp who just wanted their help to defeat a foul and evil devil named Baz on the floor below (and he off course made them sign a contract they only barely understand in turn for the “rescue”).
I don't quite see the problem here. Nor does it strike me as particulary gamist if the character wanted their concept to be along the lines of having a particulary strong "companion"/ally to travel with.
Did the players expect one to come out of the air in front of them ready to be enslaved? If so thats hardly ideal and they should probably be nudged into a more realistic/fun way of doing things.
If the players knew the full implications and had the opportunity and interest to pursue the venture i would cheer them on.
I would take the player to the side and quickly go through what this endevour would involve. Most likely this would involve quite a bit of time - travel to library/pathfinder lodge to figure out where such a creature might be found, weeks or months of travel to get there and find one. Then one would need to be isolated. Then it would need to fail a will save with a remarkably good will save. Beyond that the group (not just the witch who had charmed it) would need to treat it respectfully and fairly - as it would be an ally not a servant. They would need charisma checks (with no retries) to get it to do anything it would not naturally do (for a LE magical giant that COULD mean not killing all the people in the village they just arrived at).Further, it might have had friends and allies of its own that would want to "free" it - other spell casters might want to steal it. The rumors of them having it would make the group easily recognizable and a potential target from many sources and so on.
If ALL the players in the group (or just the witch if she had a lot of spare time) had the interest and time to go through with this - and understood and accepted that this would be hard and dangerous.. By all means.
The best stories are the ones that are created by player initiative anyhow - not forced from the pages of a book.
So don't squash the ideas, help the players realize their interest in a way that makes sense to the story. If something is within the means of a character and not overly cheesy (i.e expecting GREAT effects with little or no work) - think about it with the player. See if this is something that will make their game better and if so.. go rune giant hunting!
I would re-consider the actual penalty. I understand it might be for balance reasons – but even in our world you can easily be upside down for a length of time without risks (unless your blood pressure is out of whack), especially if you train your body for it – like I would expect this character is doing. Personally I stand on my head, admittedly under somewhat more relaxed surroundings, for three minutes every day and I have yet to pass out or really feel uncomfortable doing so.
It seems a bit excessive to make strong heroes who can easily shrug off a mace hit or two risk passing out if they are upside down for six seconds. Perhaps the delay before taking saves could be increased?
I would be more concerned with staying in the saddle and avoiding things dropping off and that attack rolls might be somewhat unfavourable (at least until one has practiced/mastered the position). Remember picking a potion or other item from you bag is a significantly more complicated process upside down.
For items, the already mentioned slippers of spider climb does make a bit of sense though – as they specifically suggest a use of standing upside down in caverns. One could easily imagine they have an added enchantment of making the character (relatively) comfortable in doing so. And the slot they occupy is not _that_ important for it to be a nurf to the character.
It should hardly be necessary to have a Rogue in the group. It is never a bad class to have – but it, like all the other classes, it is optional.
I can only speak from reading the first adventure so far, but there is nothing that screams “rogue” about it. There are some traps, but nothing too major or dangerous that necessitates a trap finder.
From your post it is a bit unclear to me if you are the gm or a player. If you are a player and feel threatened by “rogue” like elements such as traps or overcomplicated devices that needs disabling. Hint it to your GM, he can change some traps into combat/other encounters and adjust DCs and such as necessary if he feels some encounters will be unfair/not fun without a rogue.
It is a much better option for all to simply do light adjustments in the module then forcing someone to play a character/concept they do not wish. That said no changes is needed in this particular module even if rogue-less groups. Never hurts to have some perception, disable device and other means of stealth though.
Anyways, the reason I'm here... I know I've probably had some evil cleric strike me with blindness but I can't for the life of me see how the party is suppose to get into the Caves of the Mother. I assume it is through V19, but where is the top of the pit at V19 topside?
How is the party supposed to know it's there?
Check out area V2.
It is fairly central to the camp and it should be easy for the group to notice when they check out the area.
If the players enjoyed the encounter then all is good.
However,I do think that for the average party of four 1-level characters a CR 6/7 surprise encounter would be a bit over the top - epic rolls aside. But if your players can handle and enjoy it, why not.
I would be curious to hear how you will deal with replacements/resurrections in this particular setting though - as i can imagine it happens quite a bit with CRs like that.
Remember that not all players will be excellent at judging exactly which encounters are too hard and needs to be run away from, and once several players go down it tends to be too late - similarly CR levels are not exactly character knowledge. There is also the issue that having to “meta” judge any fight they are involved in to run away or not might not be what every player thinks of as fun play. It is important to convey a certain sense of danger and encourage player caution – but it can easily go too far.
As a GM I tend to pre-roll any “random” encounters for in-game days or weeks at a time – which enables me to adjust or script them as I see fit. If some encounters seems like they would be absolutely no fun, or “clog up” our precious playing time with a boring event I will simply change or omit it. I feel being able to “script” encounters removes the rather boring “roll initiative now” and having all fights starts the same.
Should the players “suffer” a random encounter with six shiv dragons, this might mean that (if the fight is deemed an ultra-epic CR+5 fight) they hear some screams and sounds in the jungle, close in to investigate and see a shiv dragon hunting pack literality clawing apart a group of cannibals/monkeys. Allowing the players to choose if they want to engage or not. Even if they do not engage they get the same sense of danger and interest in watching their back – as the jungle obviously is dangerous.
That said the random encounter chart of Serpent Skull is excellent, and unlikely to ever send something far too powerful against the PCS.
It should be noted that the max number of Shiv Dragons the encounter table might call for is 1. The extra 5 were added by the GM.
I do not think there are any more “given”/scripted events. But as you say “sandboxy” elements of the adventure it is quite likely that the NPCs will have to adjust to both negative and positive elements as the story unfolds.
Failure to properly supply food, or succumbing to disease (for the individuals who do, and for the group as a whole). The PCs leaving the NPCs alone for a length of time while they are in no position to fend for themselves. Injury, either for the NPCs themselves or even more so of their protectors the PCs might further reduce morale and so on.
Likewise positive events, such as fending of invasions of the camp, finding treasure, making a plan for escaping to the mainland and partial accomplishments tied with this will increase their confidence and morale.
For my group the “morale” and the “attitude” system was adjusted somewhat. The morale system is more based around events and the performance of the PCs instead of the die rolls. I also make the starting attitude all the NPCs start at “Indifferent” rather than Unfriendly – in the belief that all of them, though stressed, are smart enough (if not at once, at least after the first day) to understand that they must work together and feel motivated (if only due to self-interest) to cooperate. Should any betrayal or such happen though they are more than likely to be bumped down a “notch” and end up splitting the camp.
This generally comes from my group being more interested exploring the island and the plot then “babysitting” the NPC castaways. I have thus elected to make them more of a pure fluff/roleplaying event, used for fun roleplaying, to divulge information, provide some aid and the notion of a “home camp” rather than playing heavily on the notion of them needing to be taken care of and the importance of die rolls to affect their attitude and morale.
There is nothing in the rules that prevent you from 'spamming' your SLA in this manner currently, but remember you have a limited number and you each round spent doing this is one your eidalon is not helping and you are not casting another spell.
Its a bit of flexibility and handy at times when your eidalon cant perform, but hardly overpowered.
We will off course have to see the actual APG to see if any of this changes.
Remember like John says that you cant use your Eidalon with your SLA.
Having gone through several “interpretations” of the role vs roll play way of handling social interactions/skill checks what I have currently ended up with is a system that favours context/arguments but still has an actual roll.
For diplomacy I will generally use the “standard” DC values (or different values I set depending on the situation/personality). Towards this I let the player roll (or preferably take 10) with HEAVY modification based on context, situation, arguments, flattery and so on (values from -10 to +10 is quite common).
I also do not feel the need to always include the roll, especially in minor interactions: If the player starts presenting arguments/flatter/etc and does not volunteer a roll I will simply use “take 10” approach with no interuptions, if after this 10 + modifiers approach the PC seems to still not be getting his way I might suggest he takes a roll.
I subscribe to the idea of players not being the character, and i do not feel the need to penalize the players who might not be able or motivated towards dramatic speeches, thus the articulacy of the player does not really come into the equation. I do, however, I want the players to feel encouraged to provide “arguments” and at least try somewhat to simulate an actual conversation and the current trend of less focus on actual d20 roll and more on arguments/context favours this. A 18 charisma character who has no arguments/incentive to convince his audience will have to roll higher then the 12 charisma character who produced great arguments and made sure the context favoured him.
In general i find that less focus on just rolling that d20 and mechanical rules and more focus on immersion and role playing makes a more interesting experience.
I am somewhat lucky though as I play with a small group of players whom I know well – and whom all are more than capable of producing arguments and having good social interactions. We also tend to frown upon characters with CHA (or INT) dump stats.
The one thing I keep coming across that drives me crazy is the misconception that in 3.5 or PFRPG stepping into a monsters square provkes an AoO. Am I somehow misunderstanding something or is this just not clear enough?
I'm not entirely sure if you really mean "into a monster's square" rather then "into a monster's threathened area" - but if so then YES it generally gives them an AoO on you.
In most situations a monster treathens the squares adjecent to themselves as you said - and to move INTO their square (so as to sneak past, hide between their legs or give them a close hug) you generally are moving out of this adjecent square which they do threathen.
So yes, discounting other factors that unable them to threathen the square you are leaving so as to enter their square, you will provoke an AoO.
