Heavy Armor - What you actually lose

People seem to think some characters can't wear armor, because they'll lose everything. I've found this to be untrue. Pay attention to what you get, and you might find out a one level dip for heavy armor proficiency might not be that bad.

Barbarian: Fast Movement.

Seriously, that's all you lose. Many archtypes trade it out, meaning you lose nothing.

Rogue: Evasion.

Another class that only loses one ability. The rogue can't swap it out as easily as the barbarian does Fast Movement, but that just means you have access to it while sleeping or in social encounters that prohibit armor.

Ranger: Combat Style, Evasion.

A bit more serious, since Combat Style is a very handy set of bonus feats. No archetypes replace this, although some trade out Evasion.

Monk: Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement, AC Bonus, and Evasion.

You might think an armored monk makes no sense. However, you can still use all your ki abilities, most of your defensive abilities, and your regular unarmed strike. Factor in the fact that many archetypes trade out one or more of the lost abilities (Sensei trades all but AC Bonus!) and you find you don't really lose anything. And like the rogue, if you don't trade them out, they all come back when you're forced to go unarmored.

So what does this all mean?

It means feel free to dip a level in fighter and then be a full-plated monk the rest of the game. Don't be afraid to armor up your rogue.

It means you can be atypical, and break the stereotype of your class.

Heh, use the Eastern armors along with this and you're pretty much Benkei from the Tale of Genji.

*googles* Hmm, good example.

Unfortunately there is one archetype in UC that trades all of the combat style feats.

Also if you can wear medium armor with no ill effect then you can always go for a mithril full plate.

Didn't they change that in Pathfinder? Either way, not any help for monks.

Edit: They made it require the proficiency feat. Which is a good reason for a level dip as opposed to spending a feat.

The skill penitilies are deep for some classes like Rouge.

Only if you care about those skills. A social rogue isn't going to worry about the penalty to his Acrobatics too much. Maybe spend enough to not have a negative.

We also just noticed that if your in heavy or medium armor (and your speed is lowered from it) then you can't acrobatic yourself to avoid AoO...

Not sure if people consider that important... but my rogue uses it A LOT!!

I wonder if that's a PF or 3.5 rule.

Cause my full-plated paladin pulling it off with a negative check modifier was pretty sweet. It'd suck if it had been illegal.

Edit: And it was. Darn.

Yeah... it looks its not doable if your speed is lowered from encumbrance or wearing medium/heavy armor...

So near as I can tell, that means if you wear armor... but your speed doesn't drop, then your golden!!

Is there anyway to DO this?? It looks like fighters 'armor training' means they're good... What about rangers? barbarians?? are there any feats, traits, magic/masterwork gear that would let you wear armor but not be slowed?

Mithral medium armor is the only thing that comes to mind.

Dwarves wearing full plate can still tumble (i.e. use acrobatics to avoid movement AoO).

Didn't they change that in Pathfinder? Either way, not any help for monks.

Edit: They made it require the proficiency feat. Which is a good reason for a level dip as opposed to spending a feat.

I don't remember how it was in 3.5 but in PF, you (may) need the correct feat for the type of armor you wear but the armor acts as one category lower for all things except profs.

And 10th level lame oracles can also tumble in heavy armour.

Lol, Rogue in full plate...with only +1 DEX bonus or +3 DEX bonus (mithral)...Penalties in reflex saving throw (you only can get a +1 or +3 from attribute bonus), no Evasion, +6 armor check penalty to all dex based habilities (doubled if you dont have proficiency)...I dont know why a social Rogue will go to a "social" party packed in a full-plate.

Oh, oh i have another idea. A social rogue with tower shield, you can get another +10 penalty the +1 max DEX bonus but you are still a social armored rogue (Like a mecha)

PD: Sorry for my poor english V_V

I dont know why a social Rogue will go to a "social" party packed in a full-plate.

I don't either, which is why I didn't say they would.

Also note that this rogue would probably not have more than a 12 Dex. And armor does not affect Reflex saves.

The rogue’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise
(Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy
(Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist
(Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering)
(Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception
(Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis),
Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use
Magic Device (Cha).

Acrobatics
Climb
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Sleight of hand
Stealth

If you get an armored rogue...a 10 level rogue will have 10 ranks+3 class skill+1dex=14-6 = 8 if that rogue improve every level that skills.
No stealth probably get your sneak only for flanking or surprise round (but with you low initiative...), 20' for max movement really sucks for flanking too. If you want to be stealthy you only can move 10' per round.

That character probably will be usefull in one game session in a whole adventure path but yes, u are right you can get a high AC bonus, but again you will have a low hit bonus (low DEX and STR discarding weapon feaness of course).

I never take this option, i prefer to get a Fighter with high charisma and take a reasonable point distribution in social skills.

Just to point out a little misconception about Max Dex with Armors (in this specific case, Heavy Armors), which was already mentioned by TriOmegaZero:

PRD > Equipment > Armor
"Maximum Dex Bonus: This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Dexterity bonuses in excess of this number are reduced to this number for the purposes of determining the wearer's AC. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer's ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn't affect any other Dexterity-related abilities."

Of course, the Armor Check Penalty of the armor would give penalties to Dex-based abilities, but a character would still keep his original Dex bonus for Reflex Saving Throws, Weapon Finesse, Ranged Weapons, Skills, and so on.

Just my 2c.

Thanks Wraith.

Amazingly enough, rogues don't have to take Stealth.

Right but you atill have a other penalties...you never go to hit a target

Armor Check Penalty: Any armor heavier than leather, as
well as any shield, hurts a character’s ability to use Dexterityand
Strength-based skills. An armor check penalty applies to
all Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks. A character’s
encumbrance may also incur an armor check penalty.
Shields: If a character is wearing armor and using a
shield, both armor check penalties apply.

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears
armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient
takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on
attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based
ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency
with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.

You missed the 'one level dip in fighter for armor proficiencies'. That explains the disconnect.

You could make a rogue with heavy armor, but you're probably better off basing such a character off of the bard or one of it's archetypes. The loss of acrobatics and stealth as well as the loss of speed means that the rogue's one already fickle way of doing significant damage, sneak attack, just got that much harder to pull off. Doesn't mean it can be done, but unless there are specific rogue tricks you are looking at, the bard is basically a social rogue. Now what you call yourself in game is another matter entirely, and some of the best characters I've seen are ones that have one thing written down on the character sheet for mechanical reasons, but are rped as something else entirely, but mechanically, the rogue class in heavy armor generally isn't worth it because there are so many other ways to mechanically achieve the same goal that give up less, and fluff is easy enough to adjust.

The biggest problem I see isn't that people aren't willing to try non standard concepts, its that they think all "rogues" or any other formal title used in game is typically going to match the mechanical class.

Bards in heavy armour suffer arcane spell failure.

Dwarf rogues in mithral full plate (with heavy armour proficiency) don't lose too much in acrobatics & ACP.

Bards in heavy armour suffer arcane spell failure.

Dwarf rogues in mithral full plate (with heavy armour proficiency) don't lose too much in acrobatics & ACP.

I think that there are some bard archetypes that allow you casting in medium armor, and also there is the arcane duelist.

Monk: Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement, AC Bonus, and Evasion.

You might think an armored monk makes no sense. However, you can still use all your ki abilities, most of your defensive abilities, and your regular unarmed strike. Factor in the fact that many archetypes trade out one or more of the lost abilities (Sensei trades all but AC Bonus!) and you find you don't really lose anything. And like the rogue, if you don't trade them out, they all come back when you're forced to go unarmored.

So what does this all mean?

It means feel free to dip a level in fighter and then be a full-plated monk the rest of the game. Don't be afraid to armor up your rogue.

It means you can be atypical, and break the stereotype of your class.

There are ways of being atypical without crippling so much of your class features. Trade fast movement for a 20 foot movement rate? I'll pass. And dipping one level of fighter doesn't remove the inherent armor class penalties to a lot of key skills. I don't know why so many people are looking to dress and act like the BDF. That's the BDF's job. Why try to crowd him out on the one thing he's good for?

Thanks Wraith.

Amazingly enough, rogues don't have to take Stealth.

And Wizards don't have to take Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft either.

But both of those classes would be gimping themselves in their central roles if they made those choices.

Only if you think classes have roles.

This thread is in response to a post claiming that monks lose everything by wearing armor. As I have demonstrated, they do not.

People seem to think some characters can't wear armor, because they'll lose everything. I've found this to be untrue. Pay attention to what you get, and you might find out a one level dip for heavy armor proficiency might not be that bad.

Barbarian: Fast Movement.

Seriously, that's all you lose. Many archtypes trade it out, meaning you lose nothing.

Rogue: Evasion.

Another class that only loses one ability. The rogue can't swap it out as easily as the barbarian does Fast Movement, but that just means you have access to it while sleeping or in social encounters that prohibit armor.

Ranger: Combat Style, Evasion.

A bit more serious, since Combat Style is a very handy set of bonus feats. No archetypes replace this, although some trade out Evasion.

Monk: Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement, AC Bonus, and Evasion.

You might think an armored monk makes no sense. However, you can still use all your ki abilities, most of your defensive abilities, and your regular unarmed strike. Factor in the fact that many archetypes trade out one or more of the lost abilities (Sensei trades all but AC Bonus!) and you find you don't really lose anything. And like the rogue, if you don't trade them out, they all come back when you're forced to go unarmored.

So what does this all mean?

It means feel free to dip a level in fighter and then be a full-plated monk the rest of the game. Don't be afraid to armor up your rogue.

It means you can be atypical, and break the stereotype of your class.

Well and good.

This isn't snark, but I think you should put up a couple of builds using this concept.

I tend to agree with you on the barbarian and the rogue somewhat. Depending on how you build your rogue heavy armor is viable with them (and you have your tumbling dwarf option too).

But Rangers without the combat style?

I really want you to make a monk build at say level 10 and 20 using this.

I don't have ultimate combat, but I'd like to see what build you come up with. Then explain what they are good for.

Also I'd like you to explain exactly what is so great about heavy armor. A fighter's armor training makes it a no brainer for them, and you can always play a dwarf.

Personally I've always been a mithril breastplate/mithril chain shirt man. Maybe mithril full plate for the dwarf in your life. (I really, really value move rate).

Only if you think classes have roles.

This thread is in response to a post claiming that monks lose everything by wearing armor. As I have demonstrated, they do not.

Classes have areas that they gravitate to. Wizards for example aren't generally the ones who serve as frontline combat... at least not for long. Fighters tend to be extremely subpar at spellcasting and knowledge areas. Whereas both have areas they tend to be much better at. So yes when you come down to it... classes generally have roles in which they're good at, roles they're so-so at, and roles they should only be performing in the midst of a drunken binge.

Being at work, builds will have to wait.

People seem to think some characters can't wear armor, because they'll lose everything. I've found this to be untrue. Pay attention to what you get, and you might find out a one level dip for heavy armor proficiency might not be that bad.

Barbarian: Fast Movement.

Seriously, that's all you lose. Many archtypes trade it out, meaning you lose nothing.

Rogue: Evasion.

Another class that only loses one ability. The rogue can't swap it out as easily as the barbarian does Fast Movement, but that just means you have access to it while sleeping or in social encounters that prohibit armor.

Ranger: Combat Style, Evasion.

A bit more serious, since Combat Style is a very handy set of bonus feats. No archetypes replace this, although some trade out Evasion.

Monk: Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement, AC Bonus, and Evasion.

You might think an armored monk makes no sense. However, you can still use all your ki abilities, most of your defensive abilities, and your regular unarmed strike. Factor in the fact that many archetypes trade out one or more of the lost abilities (Sensei trades all but AC Bonus!) and you find you don't really lose anything. And like the rogue, if you don't trade them out, they all come back when you're forced to go unarmored.

So what does this all mean?

It means feel free to dip a level in fighter and then be a full-plated monk the rest of the game. Don't be afraid to armor up your rogue.

It means you can be atypical, and break the stereotype of your class.

Of these I'd only consider the barbarian or some roge archetypes. Skills and such are still a big aprt of some of these classes, many of which are heavily penalized by heavy armor.

There are ways of being atypical without crippling so much of your class features. Trade fast movement for a 20 foot movement rate? I'll pass. And dipping one level of fighter doesn't remove the inherent armor class penalties to a lot of key skills. I don't know why so many people are looking to dress and act like the BDF. That's the BDF's job. Why try to crowd him out on the one thing he's good for?

What if you're the BDF?

Hey TOZ, so assuming 20 pt buy, a 10th level character might be like this (No optimization yet, just throwing stuff together)?

Half-Elf Fighter 1 / Rogue 9

Str 20
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 12

BAB +7
Fort +7
Ref +6
Will +3
HP 85 (assuming 10 at first, 5/level after that, FC for HP)

Racial Abilities: Multitalented (Fighter and Rogue), Ancestral Arms (Falcata)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Vital Strike, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Bluff), Weapon Focus (Falcata), Greater Feint

Skills:
Bluff +17
Diplomacy +13
Perception +15
Sense Motive +12
Use Magic Device +14
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) +13
Appraise +13
Disguise +13
Intimidate +13

Class abilities:
Sneak Attack +5d6, Trapfinding, Trap Sense +3, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and four rogue talents: Combat Trick, Bleeding Attack, Surprise Attack, Weapon Training

So you're doing 2d8+5d6+9 with 5 Bleed on a successful feint attack, with Power Attack, or 4d8+5d6+27 on a crit, and the rogue loses only Evasion while wearing full plate and a heavy shield. This does not count any magic items, special equipment, or traits. He's a tank and a face--someone who could con his way into a military camp.

Nice build, but how well is he likely to be able to both survive and contribute in all of the levels required to get to that point?

Nice build, but how well is he likely to be able to both survive and contribute in all of the levels required to get to that point?

In this case? Quite easily. He's a straightforward brick.

1: Ftr, Skill Focus(Bluff) and Power Attack
2: Rogue from here on out
3: Combat Expertise and Weapon Training (Falcata)
5: Improved Feint and Surprise Attack
7: Bleeding Attack and... I'm missing a feat.
9: Greater Feint and Combat Trick (Vital Strike)

Yes, that's a decent example of what I mean.

Thats one of the good things of 3rd Ed multiclassing - zillions of builds (most of them related to heavy armor :( )

Let me add the Ninja to the list.
One of the few things that I don't like of the Ninja and weren't "fixed" in the final version is the lack of Light or Medium Armor Restrictions.

Rogue's Evasion is restricted to light armor, Monk's Ki-Pool extra attack can only be used with no armor... yet no single ability for the Ninja is restricted to light or medium armor (except optional abilities like Evasion).
With so many abilities to become invisible, skill checks penalties aren't that important, so using a feat or level to get Medium or even Heavy Armor is too tempting.

So, a Ninja in full plate can get +20' speed using ki points, use Light Steps without problems, SA anyone who can't see invisible creatures and wander around without being seen (but prolly heard). I think it is time to try one of them.

Brilliant point Ike. Let me know how it works out.

Better than most, but still level 5 before feint becomes routinely effective, and 2-4 are going to be difficult as far as combats are concerned with reduced speed, the rogue's BAB progression, and the lack of dex skills to setup flanking unless other party members can get into flanking position. Not bad after level 5, but still a rough path to get there, which is the problem with most creative builds. They tend to require multiclassing or higher level to gain access to enough feats to make them work, and even one level dips can take a while to fully develop. I understand that not all builds should be accessible at level 1, but when it takes level 5 just to have the basic building blocks in place for a lot of the more interesting builds, there are reasons a lot of people don't consider them.

I don't think reduced speed is any different for the fighter for the first few levels. (Edit: Looking it up, fighters can't move unhindered in heavy until 7th.) The fighter/rogues BAB is only 1 behind the fighters through level 5. His high Str will be more of a factor in hitting than BAB anyway. I'll give the flanking issue, but being a high Str high AC character mitigates that some.

A Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 shouldn't have problems surviving or contributing.

How about we wield a Battle Axe and take Skill Focus (Bluff) instead of Ancestral Arms? Also, since we're Vital Striking, we don't need Greater Feint.

1: Ftr, Combat Expertise and Power Attack
2: Rogue from here on out
3: Improved Feint and Surprise Attack
5: Weapon Training (Battle Axe) and... Feat
7: Bleeding Attack and... Feat
9: Combat Trick (Vital Strike) and... Feat

That cuts the feinting to 3rd level and gives us three feats to play with. Anyone have any ideas?

I don't think reduced speed is any different for the fighter for the first few levels. (Edit: Looking it up, fighters can't move unhindered in heavy until 7th.) The fighter/rogues BAB is only 1 behind the fighters through level 5. His high Str will be more of a factor in hitting than BAB anyway. I'll give the flanking issue, but being a high Str high AC character mitigates that some.

Accept that the whole combat gimmick for rogues focuses on almost entirely on sneak attack, no matter how you try to build the character. Without consistent ability to flank, the rogue loses consistent access to their signature combat ability, which for many people is a turn off. IVV's second try is much more viable, but if it took someone as good as he clearly is at making builds that many attempts to get it that refined, it demonstrates quite clearly that it requires a fair degree of system mastery, which a lot of people who frequent the forums don't even have, so expecting more people to play such concepts when the general population has even less system mastery may be a rather high bar to be setting. I don't know whether the system mastery requirement ends up being good or bad overall, but it is definitely there, and is a significant hurdle.

I wouldn't call it "that many attempts" because I'm just slapping things together between meetings, but I agree that it's not a first-blush build in any case.

I think that having good, solid, easy-to-understand builds for the neophyte player is crucial, and if they can eventually become different, interesting, innovative builds of similar power while the player advances in system mastery, that's a good thing. I don't think that system mastery should necessarily mean that you come up with A Better Character In All Cases, with the exception of simply not dropping into poor pitfalls.

I'm thinking more about the Rogue Heavy. Here's what I see now:

Race: Still Half-Elf with Adaptability and Multitalented. Get Skill Focus (Bluff).

Favored Class: Still Fighter and Rogue. However, instead of +1 HP, you can get +1/2 Feint and Gather Info. That's a very good choice for this build!

Archetypes: Fighter doesn't matter. Since this rogue isn't a trapmaster (no Disable Device), he can afford to give up Trapfinding. The Rake gets bonuses to Bluff and Diplomacy, and can Intimidate when sneak attacking. That's pretty good. A Scout can sneak attack on a charge, and eventually, on a move. The problem is that this costs Uncanny Dodge. It's harder, but I'm willing to do it.

So now we've got a rogue who can full attack when flanking, feint and Vital Strike when not flanking but standing still, or move and Vital Strike, or charge, and still get sneak attack dice in all cases. With Surprise Attack, he's still sneak attacking in the surprise round even though he's late in initiative, and with the high Perception, he's acting in the surprise round.

So the feat and power chain looks like:

Race: Skill Focus (Bluff)
1: Ftr, Combat Expertise and Power Attack. Skills: Bluff, Perception, UMD.
2: Rogue from here on out, sneak +1d6, Bravado's Blade
3: Improved Feint and Surprise Attack
4: Sneak +2d6 and Rake's Smile +1
5: Scout's Charge, Weapon Training (Warhammer) and Furious Focus
6: Sneak +3d6
7: Rake's Smile +2, Bleeding Attack and Shadow Strike
8: Sneak +4d6
9: Skirmisher, Combat Trick (Vital Strike) and Antagonize
10: Rake's Smile +3 and Sneak +5d6
11: Hunter's Surprise and Dastardly Finish

Skills at Level 11:

Bluff +24 (+29 when feinting)
Diplomacy +17 (+22 when gathering info)
Perception +16
Sense Motive +13
Use Magic Device +15
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) +14
Appraise +14
Disguise +14
Intimidate +14

Accept that the whole combat gimmick for rogues focuses on almost entirely on sneak attack, no matter how you try to build the character. Without consistent ability to flank, the rogue loses consistent access to their signature combat ability, which for many people is a turn off.

Others who have no difficulty working with their party members, are the rogues who prove that played right the rogue is effective at the appropriate combat roles. Coordinating with flanking buddies and the right moves can set you up for lots of sneak attack opportunities.

I don't think Gabriel realizes that a rogue in full plate can afford to flank all the time. Light armor is the reason they can't normally do that, and flanking is how they usually get sneak attack.

LazarX wrote:

There are ways of being atypical without crippling so much of your class features. Trade fast movement for a 20 foot movement rate? I'll pass. And dipping one level of fighter doesn't remove the inherent armor class penalties to a lot of key skills. I don't know why so many people are looking to dress and act like the BDF. That's the BDF's job. Why try to crowd him out on the one thing he's good for?

What if you're the BDF?

Hey TOZ, so assuming 20 pt buy, a 10th level character might be like this (No optimization yet, just throwing stuff together)?

Half-Elf Fighter 1 / Rogue 9

Str 20
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 12

BAB +7
Fort +7
Ref +6
Will +3
HP 85 (assuming 10 at first, 5/level after that, FC for HP)

Racial Abilities: Multitalented (Fighter and Rogue), Ancestral Arms (Falcata)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Vital Strike, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Bluff), Weapon Focus (Falcata), Greater Feint

Skills:
Bluff +17
Diplomacy +13
Perception +15
Sense Motive +12
Use Magic Device +14
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) +13
Appraise +13
Disguise +13
Intimidate +13

Class abilities:
Sneak Attack +5d6, Trapfinding, Trap Sense +3, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and four rogue talents: Combat Trick, Bleeding Attack, Surprise Attack, Weapon Training

So you're doing 2d8+5d6+9 with 5 Bleed on a successful feint attack, with Power Attack, or 4d8+5d6+27 on a crit, and the rogue loses only Evasion while wearing full plate and a heavy shield. This does not count any magic items, special equipment, or traits. He's a tank and a face--someone who could con his way into a military camp.

Don't see a single monk level in there, which is what I was replying to. The concept of a heavy armored monk.

Don't see a single monk level in there, which is what I was replying to. The concept of a heavy armored monk.

Monk isn't a bad dip for a fighter. Get some good saves, a couple of feats, lose a few hp's and a bab. It is a bit different in pathfinder, but a fighter dipping into monk doesn't do it for flurry. There is a lot to be said for a monk dip if you aren't dead set on some level 20 capstone.

Fun fact: aside from class features that explicitly state non-functionality in certain types of armor, the only inherent penalty for using armor/shields without proficiency is that your ACP gets applied to your attack rolls and such, instead of just certain skills.

But bucklers, light shields, and certain light armors have only a -1 ACP, which becomes 0 when masterwork. Similarly, there's the Armor Expert trait, which reduces your ACP by 1.

So a rogue, who is proficient only in light armor and not shields, could still use a masterwork buckler/light shield without penalty (unless it's a TWF rogue), and if he has the Armor Expert trait, wear a mithral breastplate without penalty.

Chew on THAT for a while.

Relatedly, a wizard/sorcerer could (if willing to face the 5-10% ASF chance) wear padded or leather armor at no penalty.

You could make a rogue with heavy armor, but you're probably better off basing such a character off of the bard or one of it's archetypes. The loss of acrobatics and stealth as well as the loss of speed means that the rogue's one already fickle way of doing significant damage, sneak attack, just got that much harder to pull off.

It depends upon what the "rogue" looks like. If he's a gnome, fuggetaboutit. If he's an orc jailer used to Vital Strike/Power Attack/Sneak Attacking shackled prisoners (i.e., punching them in the gut and kicking them in the groin), the sneak attack is just part of his repartee.

@InVinoVeritas

How are you getting prof. in the warhammer in order to take the weapon training rogue talent for it?