The Grippli looks kinda bummed.
I confess, I've had plans for a grippli paladin named Glenn who eventually wields the Masamune siiince, ooooh about 1995.
Finally, a dream is about to come true.
Bonus points if you can get your GM to roll up a scythe-wielding half-elf Magus as a rival.
In honor of the grippli: Magora Coldheart (5th-level grippli frog rider). She and her giant frog mount hop about the battlefield, happily immune to movement related attacks of opportunity.
Also, what is a wayang?
Creative Director
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In honor of the grippli: Magora Coldheart (5th-level grippli frog rider).
Also, what is a wayang?
The wayang is one of the five new core races for Tian Xia (Golarion's Asia analogue). They were first introduced last year in Dragon Empires Gazetteer.
Their Wikipedia page has more info about their real-world inspiration.
In honor of the grippli: Magora Coldheart (5th-level grippli frog rider). She and her giant frog mount hop about the battlefield, happily immune to movement related attacks of opportunity.
Ravingdork, I'm sure the artist that you used in your PDFs would appreciate a link-back to their site in your PDF!
ewww, using escape route for that?
In honor of the grippli: Magora Coldheart (5th-level grippli frog rider). She and her giant frog mount hop about the battlefield, happily immune to movement related attacks of opportunity.Ravingdork, I'm sure the artist that you used in your PDFs would appreciate a link-back to their site in your PDF!
Fixed. You can get to the artists' sites by clicking the images.
ewww, using escape route for that?
It seemed like the most efficient use of the feat to me.
So ... where can we find Grippli in Golarion? Cause I'm totally rolling one ASAP.They live in Garund. There's likely some tribes of them in the Mwangi Expanse, or maybe even in the Sodden Lands.
Probably over in Arcadia too.
Any word on whether Boggards will see some love in the Advanced Race Guide? I think we'd have a lot to contribute to the Golarion as a player race - I have an idea for a wandering Boggard ranger (fights with paired scimitars, has a giant cat companion) that does for Boggards what Drizz't Do'Urden did for the Drow.
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Any word on whether Boggards will see some love in the Advanced Race Guide? I think we'd have a lot to contribute to the Golarion as a player race - I have an idea for a wandering Boggard ranger (fights with paired scimitars, has a giant cat companion) that does for Boggards what Drizz't Do'Urden did for the Drow.
Boggards are in the same boat as Bugbears - they have racial HD, so they aren't officially eligible to be PCs.
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Any word on whether Boggards will see some love in the Advanced Race Guide? I think we'd have a lot to contribute to the Golarion as a player race - I have an idea for a wandering Boggard ranger (fights with paired scimitars, has a giant cat companion) that does for Boggards what Drizz't Do'Urden did for the Drow.Boggards are in the same boat as Bugbears - they have racial HD, so they aren't officially eligible to be PCs.
That's a shame - I have an idea for a wandering bugbear ranger (fights with paired scimitars, has a giant cat companion) that does for Bugbears what Drizz't Do'Urden did for the Drow.
Made them a joke? :-p
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Made them a joke? :-p
How about maybe a ... never mind.
Now I want to see a pigfolk to made a companion for grippli.
Sorry I don't see it. Doesn't look like a racial caricature to me in the slightest.
I would like to commend Paizo on how preposterously clever the wayang are as a race. From my understanding and brief interbutts research, it seems that 'wayang' is not any sort of mythological creature, simply a type of theatre that is most often a sort of shadow puppetry. The fact that you took the appearance of the puppets and then made them beings that come from the plane of shadow, and everything about them is about shadow, is just brilliant. I simply love it. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if I am not (I don't believe I am) I am very impressed with this specific instance of your creativity. I'd like to see them previewed on tuesday, if it's not already decided. You guys are simply great.
They are shadow people? What about fletchlings? Do we really need another type of shadow people?
They are shadow people? What about fletchlings? Do we really need another type of shadow people?
Well, fetchlings are beings who are sort of infused with shadow. Aso, I imagine them as jerks. Wayang are just from the plane of shadow and like it dark. It's not necessarily a part of their being like a fetchling. And I imagine wayang as misunderstood outcasts.
So, in conclusion:Fetchlings=infused with shadow, jerks
Wayang=likes shadow, nice weirdos
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The Grippli looks kinda bummed.
Of course he does. After all, it's not easy being green.
(You all were thinking it, I'm merely the one who voiced it.)
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Sorry I don't see it. Doesn't look like a racial caricature to me in the slightest.I imagine it won't if you're not familiar with the caricatures of the Yellow Peril era. Specifically: the long, clawlike nails, the hooked nose, exaggerated mustache, sneer with snaggly, fanglike teeth and narrow, slanted eyes are all typical elements of Fu Manchu-style demonization of Chinese and other Asians in the early part of the 20th century. Putting all those features together on an "oriental" race makes it extremely striking to someone who's familiar with this particular strain of racist propaganda.
I can see it, and I see your point. However, the first thing I saw was an Aisan outfit on Dudly Do-Right's enemy, Snidely Whiplash. That mustache is so 1800's villain. (And am I the only one who upon seeing the Wayang though, this guy's gotta sound like Vincent Price?)
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Seriously? Why does there have to be one person in every group that has to scream 'That's racist!'? That gets old.
It is a mythological PC race based on shadow puppets. It does not represent real life Asians in the slightest. BTW, unless I am mistaken, Asians tend to find being called 'Oriental' offensive.
Can't we just have one preview without these really stupid complaints?
Me? I love the look of the Grippli. The Wayang, not-so-much.. but that is just because of that mustache...
The Ifrit looks bland.
None of the pictures are bad. The art is top notch as usual.. just other than the Treefrog.. these aren't my favorites. Still, they are great artists.
I can see it, and I see your point. However, the first thing I saw was an Aisan outfit on Dudly Do-Right's enemy, Snidely Whiplash. That mustache is so 1800's villain. (And am I the only one who upon seeing the Wayang though, this guy's gotta sound like Vincent Price?)
I have to agree. Vincent Price could make any villain 20% cooler simply by vocing him. And we should make him a crime boss and give him a pet dire tiger that eats his flunkies when they fail him.
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I imagine it won't if you're not familiar with the caricatures of the Yellow Peril era. Specifically: the long, clawlike nails, the hooked nose, exaggerated mustache, sneer with snaggly, fanglike teeth and narrow, slanted eyes are all typical elements of Fu Manchu-style demonization of Chinese and other Asians in the early part of the 20th century. Putting all those features together on an "oriental" race makes it extremely striking to someone who's familiar with this particular strain of racist propaganda.
And you would probably be correct, if it weren't a faithful replication of actual indonesian art. Racism isn't reprehensible because certain images are inherently "bad" it's the intent behind racist imagery that make it such a difficult subject. The intent behind the Wayang is crystal clear and not racist in the slightest. in fact, if anything it's the opposite, it brings into greater visibility a time honored tradition from an asian culture. When Wayang theater is performed in Indonesia it isn't inherently racist, so why would it become such because it is faithfully transferred with loving detail into another medium?
An argument that this is racist, even drawing on images from World War II and before hand with Fu Manchu and the "yellow peril", seems nothing but ignorant when confronted with the actual facts and origins of the image. It would be like saying all Norse runes are racist because they were used by rather prominent racists during the mid 40s. And Norse Runes have certainly been a part of fantasy literature and gaming for almost as long as fantasy gaming and literature as we currently know it has been around.
Does the Wayang look sinister? Certainly. It's supposed to. But those features weren't "Put on an Oriental race" they're an intrinsic part of the actual origins and inspiration for the race. they're part of that Asian tradition of Wayang Puppetry.
Does the Wayang look sinister? Certainly. It's supposed to. But those features weren't "Put on an Oriental race" they're an intrinsic part of the actual origins and inspiration for the race. they're part of that Asian tradition of Wayang Puppetry.The proportions are drawn from actual wayang puppetry (which I acknowledged in my original post, and which I think is quite cleverly done.) However, wayang puppets do not generally display a snaggle-tusked sneer or a waxed Fu Manchu mustache. Their fingers are long, but not twisted and clawed. The images of the "yellow devil" were integrated by Paizo's artist into elements of the actual wayang.
So if you find it objectionable, use a different picture of the wayang. Most people don't seem to share your viewpoint, and I honestly think that it is completely counterproductive to cry racism in cases like this where it does not really apply, as that dilutes people's objections about things that are actually racist.
If you want to get technical, wayang shadow puppets often do have creepy, twisted, claw-like fingers, just on actual puppets they are twisted upwards rather than down. Also, that's not a fu-manchu, thats a handlebar moustache, which makes no word come to mind so much as "dastardly". The mustache comes from the shape of the mouth on the puppets. There is really nothing racist here unless you are specifically looking a reason for it to be considered such.
On a less polemic note, I love the Wayang even more now that I realize what they are supposed to be. When I was growing up, my parents had an Indonesian shadow puppet hanging on the wall of the living room and it used to scare the crap out of me when I was little. Next time the wayang show up while I am DMing I'll try to channel that fear of seeing a shadowy, mis-proportioned figure out of the corner of my eye in the dark.
I still don't see it unless I really really try to shoehorn it in. I even Google searched said images to try and compare them. Wrong mustache, facial structure. To me, it looks like the puppet with a Snidely Whiplash mustache.
And it's not like this is the only artwork, nor do you have to have them look like it.
Aha! Snidely Whiplash is what I was thinking of when I first saw that mustache.
For another (very different looking) Wayang, see the cover of Haunting of Hinojai.
My father grew a Fu Manchu back in the 80s and I can tell you, that is no Fu Manchu.
Take a drink for every time you read Fu Manchu.
Are there any more places where we can find some of the preview art?
Honestly, the wayang reminds me more of anti-Semitic propaganda art -- the whole point of which was to make them look creepy and menacing. So a creature that looks creepy and menacing ends up vaguely resembling various different propaganda art. What a shock (not).
For another (very different looking) Wayang, see the cover of Haunting of Hinojai.I hadn't seen that cover before, but it's a lot better. It has the wayang puppet proportions and looks sinister, but it doesn't invoke the specific elements of Yellow Peril imagery (at least as far as I can tell at the resolution on Paizo's store). Its fingers are spindly without being twisted claws, it doesn't have the hooked fangs that cartoonists liked to draw on "yellow devils", and it doesn't have the waxed mustache (and the style called "Fu Manchu" is not the only style that was used in these images - what you call the Snidely Whiplash style was used as well.)
This pretty much cements my conclusion that Paizo has made a really unfortunate stumble with this particular image, and I truly hope they consider the potential issues more closely in future depictions. Ideally I would like it if the ARG used a replacement for this deeply problematic image, but I know that's not going to happen. Ultimately, I don't expect any difference to be made in the actual product, but I hope I can at least let Paizo know that the problem is there so they can avoid it in the future.
Respectfully disagree. Yes there were some unfortunate elements in the Wayang image from the ARG, but the proportions of the one on the cover of "Haunting of Hinojai" are waaaaay off, and the fingers are far from spingly enough. True it doesn't invoke the "yellow devils" imagry, but it also doesn't evoke the image of a Wayang shadow-puppet either.
And, just as an aside, the images of the "yellow devil," "negro brute," and "polish idiot" (not mentioned yet, but figured I'd throw it out there, as early propaganda images showed all poles as muscular yet stupid looking and completely lacking in sophistication), although still offensive, have lost a lot of their impact over the years, much as a certain N-word has. This is largely do to over-use.
The only unfortunate choice I see in the Wayang image is the moustache. If it were removed, but the proportions kept (even the twisted claw-like fingers), it would be far less offensive.
The argument that these insults have lost their potency is undermined by your entirely understandable unwillingness to type the "N-word" out in full, despite your adding in a stereotype about whites which was not nearly as potent even at its height.
The only unfortunate choice I see in the Wayang image is the moustache. If it were removed, but the proportions kept (even the twisted claw-like fingers), it would be far less offensive.If the claw-like fingers were kept without the mustache or tusks, it would be odd but would not set off alarm bells. If the mustache were kept without the claws or tusks, it would likewise be odd but potentially not so bad. The fangs, I'm not so sure anything can be done about. That particular style of snaggly,...My unwillingness to use the N-word is largely do to a desire to not get my post removed for violation of forum rules, as I am not certain as to whether or not the mods consider it offensive language. As for the Snaggly teeth / tusks. My first thougths were of Japanese Oni / Gaki in classical art, Classical Indian depections of Rakshasa, and Traditional Tibetan / Chinese Yoma carvings. The backward curling tusks are a staple in temple wall carvings in south-east Aisa and in Japanese artwork.
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But Poles are idiots, just look at me.
Anyway, This is how a Wayang looks like in original art, moustache and all. Can we turn of the Liberal Sensitivity Panic Switch off already?
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But Poles are idiots, just look at me.
Anyway, This is how a Wayang looks like in original art, moustache and all. Can we turn of the Liberal Sensitivity Panic Switch off already?
Wayang: "I tire of these disingenuous assertions. I'm outta here."
Yes, that is a picture of a wayang puppet on a jetski.
Yes, I am pretty awesome. And yes, I do take American Express.
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Oh look, water all over my keyboard from my nose. Thanks.