| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hi there, first time poster, though I've been reading the boards for months.
Created a 1st level half-elf battle oracle with the lame curse to be a two-handed brawler who cast buffs while he slowly waded into combat, then controlled the battleground/protected the casters with a guisarme, combat reflexes, and at second level, enlarge person to cover even more ground. I added some early-onset UMD for out-of-combat versatility, and in the hope that Ultimate Equipment might include a wand chamber (if not, pick up a spell-storing weapon to cast wands on it beforehand). Seemed like a pretty solid idea.
I played the first session a week ago, and already, I'm second-guessing myself on the lame curse, especially considering my fellow melee'ers are a monk and a barbarian who are getting to battle multiple rounds ahead of my 15 move butt.
For the record, my party consists of a two-weapon barbarian, standard monk, finesse fighter, melee battle oracle, archer ranger, buffing bard, caster life oracle, and necromancer, almost all of which are brand new players in a brand new group, so we'll likely lose a few.
Now, I'm questioning my build in several places, and wondering if it's worthwhile to fit in a level of barbarian around 6th level, so as to pick up fast movement to combat the movement penalty and gain a handful of rounds of rage-cycling rage (as I'm immune to fatigue at lvl 5) to complement enlarge person.
I'm also interested in a general critique of the build, as this is my first time playing Pathfinder, and I very well may be overlooking some major flaw, in which case, it's better to find out now when there's a chance of changing things. Also, I haven't really figured out what to do with him after level 14, though it's pretty unlikely we'll get that far. Who knows, though. Thoughts?
Half-Elf Battle Oracle (Lame Curse)
Dice Roll
19 STR (+2 Racial)
14 DEX
15 CON
13 INT
11 WIS
16 CHA
Feats/Revelations --Notes
Level 1 - Skill Focus:UMD, Combat Reflexes/Skill at Arms
Level 3 - Power Attack/War Sight
Level 5 - Furious Focus/ --Immune to Fatigue
Level 7 - Extra Revelation, (Improved Trip free)/Maneuver Mastery, Battlefield Clarity
Level 9 - Extra Revelation, (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical free)/Weapon Mastery
Level 11 - Bolstered Resilience, (Greater Trip free)/Iron Skin --Able to get 20 DR for the cost of a swift action every round
Level 12 - (Greater Weapon Focus free)
Level 13 - Quicken Spell
Level 14 on - ?
Traits (Homeruled to get 3 if they're character-driven)
Child of the Temple: +1 Knowledge (Nobility) and (Religion), Knowledge(Nobility) is a class skill.
Dangerously Curious: +1 to UMD, UMD is a class skill.
Failed Apprentice: +1 trait bonus on saves against arcane spells.
|
The lame curse is a good match for barbarians since it lets them ignore the after rage fatigue. I have a Barbarian 2 / Battle Oracle 4 / Rage Prophet 1 in PFS.
I think you are hosed. If you were going to take Barbarian you should have done that at 1st level for the extra hit points. It would also have saved you from wasting a revelation on skill at arms. If you do decide to take a barbarian level, I would look at the Urban Barbarian archetype - if it was available when I made the character, I would have selected it.
You have four melee types in your group, so you might be better off making an adjustment before you are too far along. How does your GM generate ability scores?
The lame curse is a good match for barbarians since it lets them ignore the after rage fatigue. I have a Barbarian 2 / Battle Oracle 4 / Rage Prophet 1 in PFS.
I think you are hosed. If you were going to take Barbarian you should have done that at 1st level for the extra hit points. It would also have saved you from wasting a revelation on skill at arms. If you do decide to take a barbarian level, I would look at the Urban Barbarian archetype - if it was available when I made the character, I would have selected it.
You have four melee types in your group, so you might be better off making an adjustment before you are too far along. How does your GM generate ability scores?
Yeah, you're certainly right that a level in armored hulk would have superseded the need for skill at arms. Urban barbarian looks really cool, especially the controlled rage ability, but much of the reason I was considering the dip was for the fast movement of the barbarian, which urban barbarian loses.
Yeah, I suppose I could petition for a different starting feat and start peeling back into a...caster? Dunno what else a battle oracle would do well other than melee. As for ability scores, I believe he does 4d6 drop lowest.
I played a Battle Oracle to level 12, I loved Combat Healer. I never cast healing spells during combat, except as swift actions. It saved my or the fighters buts more than a few times.
Also consider Surprising Charge. You get to move your normal speed as an immediate action, you can even use it on someone elses turn! Oh look, dragon moves in to breath, you move away from your allies so you're not so clumped. Bad guy charging, move to a spot that gives you an AoO on him. Comrade just dropped, move closer to get your Breath of Life off, etc. If you personally are good at tactics, it's one of the best revelations in the game.
I played a Battle Oracle to level 12, I loved Combat Healer. I never cast healing spells during combat, except as swift actions. It saved my or the fighters buts more than a few times.
Also consider Surprising Charge. You get to move your normal speed as an immediate action, you can even use it on someone elses turn! Oh look, dragon moves in to breath, you move away from your allies so you're not so clumped. Bad guy charging, move to a spot that gives you an AoO on him. Comrade just dropped, move closer to get your Breath of Life off, etc. If you personally are good at tactics, it's one of the best revelations in the game.
Yeah, I probably ought to pick up Combat Healer for versatility. The Life Oracle in our group is a DMPC healbot, basically to provide training wheels so a bunch of first-time Pathfinder players can play CR 2 encounters and live, but I expect those training wheels will come off at some point.
I really considered Surprising Charge, but couldn't really figure out how to rank it in the revelations, as it's 1/day and very situational, but in those situations where it's needed, it could probably be life-and-death. What level did you pick it up at?
|
|
Yeah, I suppose I could petition for a different starting feat and start peeling back into a...caster? Dunno what else a battle oracle would do well other than melee. As for ability scores, I believe he does 4d6 drop lowest.
I would suggest talking to your GM about changing to a different curse. That would seem less disruptive than changing feats or adding barbarian levels at this point.
|
|
I really considered Surprising Charge, but couldn't really figure out how to rank it in the revelations, as it's 1/day and very situational, but in those situations where it's needed, it could probably be life-and-death. What level did you pick it up at?
I haven't picked up Surprising Charge yet, but it was a tossup between that and Battle Field Clarity at level 3. The deciding factor was that I didn't get the Grace spell until level 4. Surprising Charge and Grace means that you can run through all the Big Bad's minions and attack the boss directly.
I would suggest talking to your GM about changing to a different curse. That would seem less disruptive than changing feats or adding barbarian levels at this point.
What would you suggest as a better curse? Haunted seems like it would be pretty bad for a melee-type.
What would you suggest as a better curse? Haunted seems like it would be pretty bad for a melee-type.
Tongues is the "I don't want a drawback" one, just try to get the rest of the party to pick up whatever language you take with it.
Unless you are the party "face" and need to use Diplomacy during combat, Tongues is relatively benign.
I'm currently sharing face duties with the bard. Do you find that Diplomacy during combat happens often?
Also, to anyone: I keep hearing people theoretically suggesting to get a custom magic item like the Boots of Striding and Springing without the Springing part so I could get it sooner, but has anyone ever actually done this?
This was my character for CoT AP:
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16
Curse: Clouded Vision
Revelations:
1 Skill at Arms
3 Surprising Charge
7 Maneuver Master (Disarm)
11 Iron Skin
Feats:
1 Combat Casting, Extra Revelation (Weapon Master - Greatsword)
3 Power Attack
5 Craft Arms and Armor
7 Extra Revelation (Combat Healer)
9 Extra Revelation (War Sight)
11 Leadership
Just before the AP ended, I also picked up a Ring of Revelation (Maneuver Mastery - Trip). I had intended to just take the feat at 11th for Trip, but as a group we decided to take advantage of how Leadership works for that campaign, so I picked it up as a ring instead.
The character was a blast. We had a Cleric with the Healing domain, so when he was around I didn't use many healing spells, except in emergency situations with Combat Healer.
Surprising Charge is a very borderline revelation. If you can make great use of it, it's pure win. If you forget about it, or don't use it as often or to as good effect, it is not a good one. I have played a lot of games where interrupt counters can drastically swing the outcome (like M:tG, or board games), so I kept my eye out and knew I had it in my pocket.
A battle oracle is definitely a boulder that needs time to gain momentum. Divine Favor/Power and Enlarge Person/Righteous Might are your bread and butter, but most of those have short durations and you really need the combo to get truly scary.
With other melee classes in the group (I was paired with a 2-handed fighter), you don't need to be the primary damage dealer. Your job is to help clean up when there are multiple foes, provide flanking and add whatever damage you can. Look for ways to maximize their damage as well, like with Greater Trip.
You aren't the best healer, and you aren't the best melee combatant. But you can fill both roles adequately, making you a really good support member of the party.
For me, Battlefield Clarity wasn't as useful. We had a Cleric in the party, so he could take care of some of those conditions and I picked up Remove Fear to mitigate fear effects. It's definitely still nice, but there are otherwise to deal with those conditions.
Also, to anyone: I keep hearing people theoretically suggesting to get a custom magic item like the Boots of Striding and Springing without the Springing part so I could get it sooner, but has anyone ever actually done this?
Yes, there's nothing wrong with a custom item if your GM allows them, and this is a pretty easy custom item to calculate the cost of. Except that taking the Lame curse and immediately negating it is rather. . . inappropriate. Your curse is part of your character! Own it, play it, love it!
I have a few questions. First, this is your party list, right?
- Fighter (finesse)
- Barbarian (two-weapon)
- Monk
- Ranger (archer)
- Oracle (battle) (you?)
- Oracle (life) (DMPC?)
- Bard
- Necromancer
What character class is the necromancer?
How soon do you think the DMPC is going away?
Why do you think you need UMD? (You have an enormous spell list! you can already use half the wands in the game, and your arcane buddies can use the other half.)
Surprising Charge is a very borderline revelation. If you can make great use of it, it's pure win. If you forget about it, or don't use it as often or to as good effect, it is not a good one. I have played a lot of games where interrupt counters can drastically swing the outcome (like M:tG, or board games), so I kept my eye out and knew I had it in my pocket.
A battle oracle is definitely a boulder that needs time to gain momentum. Divine Favor/Power and Enlarge Person/Righteous Might are your bread and butter, but most of those have short durations and you really need the combo to get truly scary.
With other melee classes in the group (I was paired with a 2-handed fighter), you don't need to be the primary damage dealer. Your job is to help clean up when there are multiple foes, provide flanking and add whatever damage you can. Look for ways to maximize their damage as well, like with Greater Trip.
You aren't the best healer, and you aren't the best melee combatant. But you can fill both roles adequately, making you a really good support member of the party.
What did you think of Clouded Vision? I've heard great things, and I've heard horrible things. Obviously since I'm in a party with a barbarian and monk, I'm not going to be first to the party no matter what. But if I get War Sight, there's a chance I'll be going first, in which case, I won't know which direction to go. Do you do any first-round debuffing in higher levels? Do you bother to raise perception, considering there's not much chance you're going to be able to act in the surprise round (other than via War Sight at 7th)?
Re: Surprising Charge, Can an Immediate action really interrupt that...granularly? Like the charge example above, you'd have to know where the guy intends to go before you can position yourself for an AoO.
Re: the Enlarge Person/Divine Favor combo, how did you work that with moving into combat? Do a move action, start enlarge person, end it with your next turn's standard action, then move again? Or is it best to get all buffs off while safely behind, then try a run action?
Re: being a generalist/utility/support fighter, yeah, that was the idea behind getting a reach weapon, getting combat reflexes, and taking the trip Maneuver Mastery. Catch anyone who manages to get by the strikers before they get to the squishies, then provide a wide platform for flanking and mopping up.
Re: Battlefield clarity, I guess I can understand that, I'm just a little nervous that I need to be the 'dependable' tank in a group of glass cannon melee'ers, and so if I'm fleeing even for a round or two, that's a bigger letdown than it might otherwise be. I guess that's actually a good side of the lame curse, not being able to flee very far, either. :P
It's true, you can't out and out interrupt a current action, but you can during someone's turn. So yes, interrupting the charge is tricky, since technically you go before him, but going out of order with a movement is still useful.
Overall, Surprising Charge is a difficult power to get the most use out of, I do not blanket recommend it as awesome.
Enlarge Person has a decent duration if you can cast it prior to combat, because it has a long cast time as well. Use Divine Favor when you think you need the bonus to attack mostly. If your opponents might have low AC, just attack instead. Overall, I probably used Divine Favor more than Enlarge Person in our campaign.
Remove Fear has a decent duration, don't be shy about covering yourself and the other melee with it.
Occasionally I had difficulty with knowing where things were at range. You advance to 60' sight fairly quickly and a lot of encounters start off around that range or less, particularly indoor ones. Noticing fighting is a DC 0 perception check, so it's pretty easy to find the fight once it's started.
The other thing I had, I was human, so I used my favored class bonus to help pick up more spells which was a big benefit. As a spontaneous caster, you get more spell slots, so don't be shy about picking up long duration buffs you can put on multiple people. I spent the majority of the campaign with Resist Energy (Fire) on myself and occasionally shared it. I also put Magic Vestment on anyone who needed it.
Yes, there's nothing wrong with a custom item if your GM allows them, and this is a pretty easy custom item to calculate the cost of. Except that taking the Lame curse and immediately negating it is rather. . . inappropriate. Your curse is part of your character! Own it, play it, love it!
I have a few questions. First, this is your party list, right?
Are you the battle oracle in the list, or are you a 9th character?
- Fighter (finesse)
- Barbarian (two-weapon)
- Monk
- Ranger (archer)
- Oracle (battle) (you?)
- Oracle (life) (DMPC?)
- Bard
- Necromancer
What character class is the necromancer?
How soon do you think the DMPC is going away?Why do you think you need UMD? (You have an enormous spell list! you can already use half the wands in the game, and your arcane buddies can use the other half.)
Re: removing the lame-ness of the curse, Well, I already had the guy chop off his own lower leg to get free of fetters during his I-know-kung-fu oracular event (and it did not respond to regeneration), so he's always going to have the peg leg as a reminder, even if he's hopping along more quickly.
1. Yes, I'm the battle oracle in that list.
2. The necromancer is a wizard, so yes, we do have a little arcanism in the group besides the bard.
3. I have no idea when the DMPC is going away, he just seems to be setting it up as a tragic figure such that he's going to have to die eventually.
4. The UMD was originally due to the fact that when I wrote my backstory, I didn't know we were going to have the necromancer, so I gave my guy a history as a failed wizard's apprentice (learning to use wands so as to trick his mother into thinking he was progressing), so the bard could have some arcane backup. Once I knew about the necromancer (after the DM had already approved my bio, of course :P) I figured that having a scroll of expeditious retreat or a wand of shield would help fill in the weak spots of this character. Now that we've actually played, though, I probably could remove it, as the necromancer is the most enthusiastic/participatory person in the group and best roleplayer, so he's unlikely to leave. The barbarian, ranger and monk, however...
Why? Do you have an idea for those resources? EWP Fauchard and the Iron Will alternate racial trait were two I'd considered.
It's true, you can't out and out interrupt a current action, but you can during someone's turn. So yes, interrupting the charge is tricky, since technically you go before him, but going out of order with a movement is still useful.
Overall, Surprising Charge is a difficult power to get the most use out of, I do not blanket recommend it as awesome.
Enlarge Person has a decent duration if you can cast it prior to combat, because it has a long cast time as well. Use Divine Favor when you think you need the bonus to attack mostly. If your opponents might have low AC, just attack instead. Overall, I probably used Divine Favor more than Enlarge Person in our campaign.
Remove Fear has a decent duration, don't be shy about covering yourself and the other melee with it.
Occasionally I had difficulty with knowing where things were at range. You advance to 60' sight fairly quickly and a lot of encounters start off around that range or less, particularly indoor ones. Noticing fighting is a DC 0 perception check, so it's pretty easy to find the fight once it's started.
The other thing I had, I was human, so I used my favored class bonus to help pick up more spells which was a big benefit. As a spontaneous caster, you get more spell slots, so don't be shy about picking up long duration buffs you can put on multiple people. I spent the majority of the campaign with Resist Energy (Fire) on myself and occasionally shared it. I also put Magic Vestment on anyone who needed it.
I'll probably skip Surprising Charge for now, then. It's been 15 years since I've played D&D, so I'm not sure I'm rules-savvy enough to use it to its full effect.
Yeah, ideally I'd like to use Enlarge Person before combat, but at 2nd level, it's not going to have the duration to do that for anything other than door-crashing scenes. Yeah, looking forward to Divine Favor and Grace.
Did you really find enough use of Remove Fear to warrant a slot, or would it be better for a wand or something? Ten minutes still means you'd need to cast it a few times a day if you were casting it pre-emptively.
As for the bonus spell, the ARG gave half-elves the human favored class thing for the oracle, so yeah, once I'm casting 2nd level spells, I'll start adding 1st level ones.
While I'm waiting, does anyone else have experience with Clouded Vision that they can share? How big of a handicap is it?
Clouded vision isnt that bad, especially if u have folks in grp with good percept checks.. They just need to steer u in the right direction and at 5th level its not much of a hinderance at all imo.. I would suggest if your going to give up lame curse to pick up 2 levels of paladin instead of barb.. A smite and some swift action heals are always nice and ntm divine grace, ur saves will be exceptional.. My 2 cents...
Clouded vision isnt that bad, especially if u have folks in grp with good percept checks.. They just need to steer u in the right direction and at 5th level its not much of a hinderance at all imo.. I would suggest if your going to give up lame curse to pick up 2 levels of paladin instead of barb.. A smite and some swift action heals are always nice and ntm divine grace, ur saves will be exceptional.. My 2 cents...
I haven't actively played since 2nd Ed. It's still the case that you have to keep the alignment/tenets of a dip after you go to a different class, right? If so, I'm not a fan of having to follow a Paladin's code without major, major benefits, though I guess I've seen some gods' codes that weren't entirely heinous. Which god do you typically pick?
Any other advice?
Despite sieylianna's pronouncement that your battle oracle is hosed, I see only one small tactical error in his design: "cast buffs while he slowly waded into combat" does not work. A self-buffing character already loses combat rounds to casting his buff spells. Losing more rounds to slow movement means that he will miss combat unless combat comes to him.
The bigger tactical dilemma is that the party does not need another melee combatant. The barbarian, monk, fighter, and ranger should deal enough damage. Once the NPC life oracle leaves, the party will look to the battle oracle as their divine caster. Because the lame battle oracle cannot race into combat like the barbarian and monk, he could embrace his spellcasting side and serve as a spellcaster who also kicks butt in combat when necessary.
At third level, you planned on taking the War Sight revelation. With War Sight your battle oracle will typically have higher initiative than the barbarian and monk. Even before War Sight, one of those two is likely to roll lower initiative than the oracle. The oracle could cast a buff on that one before that one rushed into combat. The oracle won't be in the front line, but his buff spell will be. And that will help the party.
As for the notion of controlling the battlefield with a guisarme, combat reflexes, and enlarge person, I presume you will be using the trip property of the guisarme. Since the oracle will be stuck in the back, that control will serve to trip up gangs of goblins and other two-legged humanoids that try to close in on the bard, necromancer, and ranger to mess up their spells and ranged attacks. Protecting the arcane casters is a worthy role. The barbarian and monk won't do it, because they ran too far forward.
If working support and defense is not your goal and you want the thrill of a frontline oracle, the standard solution to the lameness curse is to buy a horse. At higher levels, your oracle's emphasis on Use Magic Device will pay off when he can afford a Wand of Fly. Flying and reach will make an interesting combination.
I usually go with Iomedae, but paladins arent restricted like they were in 2nd 3d. Sure they still have a code of conduct to adhire too, but u dont have to play them as "its evil, charge!". Most dieties with the LG alignment have a decent portfolio for strategy, protection, and in some cases vengence.. You still have to be lawful good, but u dont have to play as a holy idiot like in 2nd ed... And theres always the atonement spell if u do somthing naughty. Honestly you could do well just staying pure oracle, but if u want to multiclass the paladin has nice snergy with the oracle...
The bigger tactical dilemma is that the party does not need another melee combatant. The barbarian, monk, fighter, and ranger should deal enough damage. Once the NPC life oracle leaves, the party will look to the battle oracle as their divine caster. Because the lame battle oracle cannot race into combat like the barbarian and monk, he could embrace his spellcasting side and serve as a spellcaster who also kicks butt in combat when necessary.
Part of the problem is that the Barbarian, Ranger and Monk are the most likely to leave the group in my estimation, but I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Okay, I can certainly take a hybrid role.
At third level, you planned on taking the War Sight revelation. With War Sight your battle oracle will typically have higher initiative than the barbarian and monk. Even before War Sight, one of those two is likely to roll lower initiative than the oracle. The oracle could cast a buff on that one before that one rushed into combat. The oracle won't be in the front line, but his buff spell will be. And that will help the party.
As for the notion of controlling the battlefield with a guisarme, combat reflexes, and enlarge person, I presume you will be using the trip property of the guisarme. Since the oracle will be stuck in the back, that control will serve to trip up gangs of goblins and other two-legged humanoids that try to close in on the bard, necromancer, and ranger to mess up their spells and ranged attacks. Protecting the arcane casters is a worthy role. The barbarian and monk won't do it, because they ran too far forward.
I have no problem with being support. The problem would be how to consistently contribute in a meaningful way, as a battle oracle is mostly keyed towards melee. I guess the 3rd and 5th level feats can be in play if I'm not doing front line.
Should I be taking the switch-hitter ranger approach and pick up a strength bow and the Quick Draw feat? Problem with that is that I don't get any bonus archery feats, so firing into melee will be a problem. Obviously at some point I'll have more spells than rounds of combat (and the +1 spell known/level thing from the ARG will allow more versatility), but until that point, what do I do in the back?
I usually go with Iomedae, but paladins arent restricted like they were in 2nd 3d. Sure they still have a code of conduct to adhire too, but u dont have to play them as "its evil, charge!". Most dieties with the LG alignment have a decent portfolio for strategy, protection, and in some cases vengence.. You still have to be lawful good, but u dont have to play as a holy idiot like in 2nd ed... And theres always the atonement spell if u do somthing naughty. Honestly you could do well just staying pure oracle, but if u want to multiclass the paladin has nice snergy with the oracle...
Yeah, it's sounding like my best option at this point is playing up my full caster progression, which I'd lose as a paladin. Though archery smite is mighty tempting. Maybe I'll dust off that boar-riding halfling archer paladin I started on and make him a backup character. That, or the dwarf menhir savant with Caves domain. Hrm...
A few unanswered questions across the thread:
1. How often do you find use for Diplomacy in combat?
2. Has anyone actually gone to the trouble to get a Boots of Striding and Springing without the springing, so it'd be cheaper?
3. Does anyone have a better use for the one trait and one feat that Dangerously Curious and SF: UMD are taking up, now that my party has a wizard for their arcane needs?
4. Do people find enough use for Remove Fear to give it a slot on the Oracle's limited list?
5. Anyone else have experience with Clouded Vision who can share just how much of a hindrance it is?
6. If I tried to serve as more of a hang-near-the-casters sort of fighter, how could I best contribute to combat for the levels that I don't have enough spells to cast one per round? I guess I could give up Power Attack and Furious Focus if someone had a solid idea.
|
1.Almost never.
2.It would appear nobody has. Boots of Striding and Nothing Else just aren't that necessary unless you're small and wear heavy armor.
3.If your speed is getting to you, Fleet might be a good choice. Reach Spell is also nice, as it lets you cast Cure spells without having to be next to the guy you're Curing. As for traits, there are several that give you a bonus to initiative if you're interested.
4.No. Your limited list means you need to focus on spells that you can use regularly, and in multiple circumstances.
5.Once your vision extends out to 60 feet, you barely even notice the drawback. Sure, you'll never be the party archer, but even 30 feet is close enough for a charge. Just remind your party members how much you'd appreciate the occasional "This way! Over here!"
6.You already took Combat Reflexes, how about Combat Patrol?
The Party - Let's assume the DMPC Oracle goes away soon.
- Melee - Fighter (finesse)
- Melee - Barbarian (two-weapon)
- Melee - Monk (standard)
- Melee/Spells - Oracle (battle)
- Ranged - Ranger (archer)
- ?/Arcane - Bard (standard?)
- Arcane - Necromancer
Some things I see going on:
- You have 1.5 arcane casters, so Skill Focus UMD is wasted. You may want to put skill points into UMD just for fun, but skill points aren't a key resource for you so it's OK if you play around with them. Feats are a critical resource for you.
- You have a huge number of attackers, which means that buff spells will go a long way. When you're casting Blessing of Fervor it could add 6 attacks to the party!
- You're never going to be the best melee combatant or best damage dealer in this group, but you're the only divine caster. Look for ways to make that useful and you'll have a good time.
1. How often do you find use for Diplomacy in combat?
Never. Well, almost never. By the time you're in combat, it's almost always too late for diplomacy.
2. Has anyone actually gone to the trouble to get a Boots of Striding and Springing without the springing, so it'd be cheaper?
Yes, and I like the item. But, since it's only a minor cost savings, don't use up too many GM favors trying to get it.
3. Does anyone have a better use for the one trait and one feat that Dangerously Curious and SF: UMD are taking up, now that my party has a wizard for their arcane needs?
Absolutely! Get yourself a great exotic weapon and Heirloom Weapon. There are lots of other good options as well.
4. Do people find enough use for Remove Fear to give it a slot on the Oracle's limited list?
Nope. I like Liberating Command though, once you have an excess of first level spells. It's a really great spell for an Oracle because you're unlikely to need it for five fights in a row, but then you get to use it five times on one fight and totally save the day.
5. Anyone else have experience with Clouded Vision who can share just how much of a hindrance it is?
I ran a one-shot game with a Clouded Vision oracle in it, and it was definitely a limitation. It's not an un-fun limitation, but it's significant.
6. If I tried to serve as more of a hang-near-the-casters sort of fighter, how could I best contribute to combat for the levels that I don't have enough spells to cast one per round? I guess I could give up Power Attack and Furious Focus if someone had a solid idea.
I think that having a reach weapon (to keep you out of threatened range for casting and threatening a lot of squares yourself) and charging into combat for a hit or two is really useful.
Not everyone will agree with me, but I'm a fan of using a Guisarme (or other 2-handed, marshal, reach, trip, weapon, or perhaps a flail) and becoming a tripper at early levels. Later, just before tripping starts to wear out, add Dirty Trick to your repertoire.
|
|
A few unanswered questions across the thread:
1. How often do you find use for Diplomacy in combat?
2. Has anyone actually gone to the trouble to get a Boots of Striding and Springing without the springing, so it'd be cheaper?
3. Does anyone have a better use for the one trait and one feat that Dangerously Curious and SF: UMD are taking up, now that my party has a wizard for their arcane needs?
4. Do people find enough use for Remove Fear to give it a slot on the Oracle's limited list?
5. Anyone else have experience with Clouded Vision who can share just how much of a hindrance it is?
6. If I tried to serve as more of a hang-near-the-casters sort of fighter, how could I best contribute to combat for the levels that I don't have enough spells to cast one per round? I guess I could give up Power Attack and Furious Focus if someone had a solid idea.
1. Is highly dependent on your group. I have had the misfortune to play with enough people who attack everything in sight that I put some effort into it.
2. I largely play PFS and custom items are a no-no.
3. Virtually all of my characters have dangerously curious, but I wouldn't spend a feat on UMD.
4. Eventually you should have room for it.
1. How often do you find use for Diplomacy in combat?
During combat, seldom. After combat in town, often. Someone has to explain to the town guards that the dead bodies on the ground were the bad guys.
2. Has anyone actually gone to the trouble to get a Boots of Striding and Springing without the springing, so it'd be cheaper?
Boots of Striding and Springing give +10 feet to land movement and +5 competence bonus to Acrobatics checks. However, the Acrobatics rules say, "Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet." Thus, +4 of the +5 bonus is simply to make the speed increase act like a naturally higher speed. Removing the extra +1 won't reduce the cost by much.
3. Does anyone have a better use for the one trait and one feat that Dangerously Curious and SF: UMD are taking up, now that my party has a wizard for their arcane needs?
An archery feat, if you want to reinvent your character as an archer. However, with the UMD a Wand of Longstrider (1st level druid spell) would be as useful as Boots of Striding and Springing. And a wand of Acid Arrow (2nd level wizard spell) would give your oracle a ranged attack.
4. Do people find enough use for Remove Fear to give it a slot on the Oracle's limited list?
Most effects that cause fear affect several party members. As a spontaneous caster, your oracle could cast it several times, but it won't be worth the time and spells.
5. Anyone else have experience with Clouded Vision who can share just how much of a hindrance it is?
Sorry, I have seen only the Deaf, Haunted, and Wasting curses in effect, and that last one was on an NPC.
6. If I tried to serve as more of a hang-near-the-casters sort of fighter, how could I best contribute to combat for the levels that I don't have enough spells to cast one per round? I guess I could give up Power Attack and Furious Focus if someone had a solid idea.
If your oracle has cast Enlarge Person and uses a reach weapon, that gives him a 20 foot reach. If the casters are 40 feet back from the enemy, the oracle can stand 20 feet back from the enemies and hit them, yet also hit enemies that approach the casters. This is a mid-combat tactic, after your lame oracle had time to move into a good position. By the way, the rules for Cover (Combat chapter of Core Rulebook) say, "When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks." Thus, an opponent on the opposite side of an ally has soft cover giving him +4 AC against your oracle. Teach your allies to attack diagonally.
2.It would appear nobody has. Boots of Striding and Nothing Else just aren't that necessary unless you're small and wear heavy armor.
I'm a Medium Lame curse Oracle with 15 move until 10th level, when I'll have 20 move. Additional movement would be nice.
3.If your speed is getting to you, Fleet might be a good choice. Reach Spell is also nice, as it lets you cast Cure spells without having to be next to the guy you're Curing. As for traits, there are several that give you a bonus to initiative if you're interested.
I'll look into the Reach spell, but that's not going to be too applicable for a while. I'm actually trying to replace the first level half-elven trait, so I can only take skill focuses, exotic weapon profs, and a few alternate racial traits. That said, Fleet just seems like a cop-out, though I am getting desperate at this point. Additional initiative is always nice, but it doesn't really make me take any fewer rounds to get to combat.
6.You already took Combat Reflexes, how about Combat Patrol?
Doesn't that require Dodge and Mobility to get to? Three feats for that effect seem a little steep. Have you found the extra reach makes the difference?
Thanks for the advice, your reasoning makes sense. I'll try to twist this guy into a caster, the question is how.
3. Does anyone have a better use for the one trait and one feat that Dangerously Curious and SF: UMD are taking up, now that my party has a wizard for their arcane needs?
Absolutely! Get yourself a great exotic weapon and Heirloom Weapon. There are lots of other good options as well.
There's information I didn't include that's apparently relevant there. My DM runs a whole bunch of tabletop games (notably Anima RPG), but has never run Pathfinder before, so he got a module to run. The DM was so impressed by the party's ability to work together towards a goal on our very first scene, that he let us find a couple non-standard magic items: some gem with two charges of 'Cure Disease', and a super-heavy masterwork greatsword with a bonus to sunder and 'Bless Weapon' ...I believe permanencied on it, as he insisted the sword itself was not a magic sword, just 'blessed by Aroden'. As I'm the only two-handed fighter, it fell to me. While I had originally considered EWP: Fauchard, now I'm second-guessing myself.
That said, what other options are available?
6. I think that having a reach weapon (to keep you out of threatened range for casting and threatening a lot of squares yourself) and charging into combat for a hit or two is really useful.Not everyone will agree with me, but I'm a fan of using a Guisarme (or other 2-handed, marshal, reach, trip, weapon, or perhaps a flail) and becoming a tripper at early levels. Later, just before tripping starts to wear out, add Dirty Trick to your repertoire.
Yeah, I was building in that direction, though I didn't include Dirty Trick. Battle oracle gets a free Improved Trip at 7th and Greater at 11th, what do you mean by 'early levels'?
3. Virtually all of my characters have dangerously curious, but I wouldn't spend a feat on UMD.
Everything I've read said that you should have UMD at a certain threshold before using it, and a feat was the fastest way. Without the feat, at what level do you start actually using UMD in combat?
|
Well, using a wand with UMD is DC 20. I'd say you want at least a +10 before trying that in combat. Given a good cha as an oracle (+3 bonus, as noted in earlier posts?), +3 for it being a class skill, that gets you +10 at level 4, if you put a rank in it every level. A trait for an extra +1 doesn't hurt.
And wands are among the easiest things to use with UMD.
Really, the question is what do you want to use UMD for? I tend to train it for my arcane spellcasters so they can use cure wands, but I haven't bothered with UMD for my divine casters. There's no arcane magic that I really feel my divine casters need badly enough to spend that many skill ranks to use.
(Re: Feats) An archery feat, if you want to reinvent your character as an archer. However, with the UMD a Wand of Longstrider (1st level druid spell) would be as useful as Boots of Striding and Springing. And a wand of Acid Arrow (2nd level wizard spell) would give your oracle a ranged attack.
I don't really want to reinvent myself as an archer, especially considering I don't have the free feats necessary to keep it up into higher levels. Granted, I'll have spells by then, but it feels like a waste. Yeah, the wand of Longstrider was a good amount of the reason I didn't scrap the whole UMD idea after I found out we were getting a wizard.
If your oracle has cast Enlarge Person and uses a reach weapon, that gives him a 20 foot reach. If the casters are 40 feet back from the enemy, the oracle can stand 20 feet back from the enemies and hit them, yet also hit enemies that approach the casters. This is a mid-combat tactic, after your lame oracle had time to move into a good position. By the way, the rules for Cover (Combat chapter of Core Rulebook) say, "When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks." Thus, an opponent on the opposite side of an ally has soft cover giving him +4 AC against your oracle. Teach your allies to attack diagonally.
I think this is the best idea so far. It goes with the Battle Oracle's strengths, works with the Lame curse weaknesses, and is simple enough to implement with not too much trouble, save for the cover rules. I guess I need to learn them better. Does my size factor into whether someone gets cover or not? All the angles and lines of the cover rules confuse the heck out of me.
Well, using a wand with UMD is DC 20. I'd say you want at least a +10 before trying that in combat. Given a good cha as an oracle (+3 bonus, as noted in earlier posts?), +3 for it being a class skill, that gets you +10 at level 4, if you put a rank in it every level. A trait for an extra +1 doesn't hurt.
And wands are among the easiest things to use with UMD.
Really, the question is what do you want to use UMD for? I tend to train it for my arcane spellcasters so they can use cure wands, but I haven't bothered with UMD for my divine casters. There's no arcane magic that I really feel my divine casters need badly enough to spend that many skill ranks to use.
As noted above, I wanted it originally to compensate for a lack of arcane magic, and then as an option to compensate for my slowness and/or middling AC. Now? I'm not sure. I'm looking for options for what to do with my free half-elf feat at first level.
To anyone: Would Eldritch Heritage be a smart way to strengthen this build, using my free Skill Focus as the prereq? Obviously Orc and Abyssal would be appropriate, but what about Arcane or even Giant? Throwing chakrams 60 feet could still mean being helpful, and Powerful Build could increase my reach even more. Or even one of the blastier bloodlines, just to get a 3+CHA mod ray power?
The +4 bonus and hte +5 bonus STACK (differnt bonuses).
So you get an effective +9 to your acrobatics for jumping.
Cost for Boost of striding is as follows.
+5 Competence bonus 2500
Longstrider always on 2000 +1000 for second enchantment.So if the GM allowed boots of Striding, they would be 2000 gold.
If that's right that would be amazing, as I might be able to pick it up by second level. Too bad the wizard can't pick up Craft Wondrous Items until 3rd. Thanks so much for the info!
Room of remove fear? - No. I would take sothing word - makes a long list of suck-effects better - this WILL come in handy much more often than remove fear.
But know your GM - if he likes fear effects and use them alot remove fear could be worth it..
IMO take a level of Barbarian ASAP and use Medium armor to capitalize on their fast movement. I would wait to get the full Boots of Striding and Springing and go with a wand of Longstrider until you can afford it.
Take a look at the Rage Prophet PrC, I think it would make a great addition to your party and seems to follow the direction your going.
As you are new to Pathfinder, look ahead like you are doing, but don't cement character decisions until you actually get there. In that way, you can adapt a bit as you go without fret.
As this is your first character, don't "worry" about super optimizing to get every last drip out of the character. Instead, focus on curing the pain as you go, keeping some sort of mind for the future like you are doing.
While this is my first Pathfinder character, I've been doing tabletop-type rpg's for almost 20 years, and the build is part of the fun. Of course a build is never in stone. If an unanticipated issue comes up, I will obviously tilt the build towards compensating. However, the choices that we make at an earlier level will both open and close doors in subsequent levels, and I'd rather not paint myself into a corner, to mix metaphors. Also, building towards being useful in as many scenarios as possible helps to increase my fun when playing.
Your current "pain", as it were: you move too slowly. How to fix that?
Your level in barbarian will do that at level 2. That's not terribly far away. You mentioned taking barbarian at level 6. Okay, that now is terribly far away to fix the pain. Sounds like taking barbarian at level 2 would help out more.
I have ditched the barbarian idea over the course of this thread, but unfortunately don't know how to change the thread name.
But, let's look at alternative ways to fix the "pain".
- Have an action to perform if you can't close in on combat to attack. This might be as simple as casting Bless whenever you can't attack the first round. Carrying a loaded sling will give you an attack you can make if you can't make it into the fray. Equip a spear that you can throw if desired, or keep in hand to melee. Have a potion of Enlarge Person in hand to quaff (standard action) to allow you to quaff and move forward into combat still.
Yeah, that's my current crux, finding something to do as a battle oracle that isn't on the front lines. At first level, I have like 4 spells to use over... let's say 25 rounds worth of combat (5 encounters) through a 1st level dungeon. That's 21 rounds I can't cast. A pre-loaded sling only works once per encounter (and is slightly annoying damage-wise, given he's proficient in all martial weapons), but given that I use that, we're down to 16 rounds. I may invest in a strength bow or a bunch of chakrams, but the chakrams won't last forever (and need to be collected), and the bow doesn't play well with other two-handed weapons. Potions of enlarge person are fine, but I'll be getting that spell at 2nd level, so hopefully I'll be casting that. Any other ideas?
- Consider using light armor for now. That will put your movement back to 20 feet from 15 feet. That +5 feet could make a huge difference.
- Consider acting faster in combat. Improving perception and picking the revelation War Sight will go a long way towards doing that.
The reason I wanted to go faster was to be able to get to the front line closer to when the monk and barbarian do. They both have class features that compensate for their lack of armor, I do not. However, as a suggestion for higher movement in general, that's certainly viable. As for acting faster, are you suggesting that I put my Skill Focus in perception?
Room of remove fear? - No. I would take sothing word - makes a long list of suck-effects better - this WILL come in handy much more often than remove fear.
But know your GM - if he likes fear effects and use them alot remove fear could be worth it..
You're right, Soothing Word is much better for an oracle due to affecting such a variety of statuses, though the fact that it only reduces those statuses is a little annoying. Guess I shouldn't expect too much from a 2nd level spell.
Okay, here's the current list of unanswered questions, for anyone to answer:
1. Does size factor into whether someone gets cover from me, as in, the larger I am, the wider the hole my party has to leave to allow me to attack with a reach weapon without paying soft cover penalties?
2. Considering I have a free Skill Focus and can probably get rid of my 3rd and 5th level feats if need be, would Eldritch Heritage be a smart way to strengthen this build, using my free Skill Focus as the prereq? Obviously Orc and Abyssal would be appropriate, but what about Arcane or even Giant? Throwing chakrams 60 feet could still mean being helpful, and Powerful Build could stack nicely with enlarge person. Or even one of the blastier bloodlines, just to get a 3+CHA mod ray power?
3. Assuming I decide to give up being on the front line and just sort of put myself between the front line and the casters, and given me having a limited number of spells, what should I be doing with my actions? Is the enlarge person/reach weapon idea always going to work? Should I take up throwing weapons or a bow? If a bow, do I have to take a page out of the switch-hitter playbook to pick up Quick Draw, so I can drop the bow and draw the reach weapon as a free action if someone gets by the front line?
4. Is Perception important enough in your opinion for me to consider it as my Skill Focus?