I Don't Understand the Crashing Slam Nerf When Wolf Drag Exists

From the newest FAQ (Player Core Errata, Spring 2026, 1st Printing):

"Page 147: Crashing Slam was updated to make it clear how it works with your multiple attack penalty. Replace the second sentence with the following text: “If the Strike you make with Slam Down hits, you can automatically get a critical success on your Trip instead of rolling a check. (Both the Strike and Trip still count toward your multiple attack penalty.)”

So, to summarize (for 2 actions):

Trip + Strike means Trip at no MAP and then Strike at -5 MAP, then -10 MAP after that.

Slam Down (level 4 Fighter feat) means Strike at no MAP and Trip at no MAP, then -10 MAP after that.

Crashing Slam (level 10 Fighter feat) means Strike at no MAP and auto-crit on Trip, then -10 MAP after that.

But let's take a look at Wolf Drag, a level 6 monk feat:

You rip your enemy off their feet. Make a wolf jaw Strike. Your wolf jaw gains the fatal d12 trait for this Strike, and if the attack succeeds, you knock the target prone.

Wolf Drag means Strike at no MAP and auto-success on Trip, then -5 MAP after that, PLUS the Strike has Fatal d12.

So the fighter feat is 4 levels higher and gets d10/d12 crit trip bludgeoning damage (which doesn't inherit any weapon traits like holy or cold iron), meaning it often does nothing against stuff like constructs/devils.

Meanwhile the monk feat gets only one MAP vs two and the strike has Fatal d12.

The Fatal d12 and crit trip damage seem to be a wash (or in favor of Fatal), meaning the Monk feat avoids the second MAP increase that Crashing Slam doesn't.

I would much rather have success on the Trip and only one MAP increase than a crit success on Trip and two MAP increases.

Now, if you move and then Crashing Slam...nothing changes. Literally. That's your whole turn anyway normally. So this nerf has no impact whatsoever on that.

It only changes if you have another action to Strike, either by starting in melee reach or having quickened from something. At which point your extra Strike is at -10 vs -5, making it significantly less valuable.

Or probably in many cases now, you do a Strike first at no MAP and then Crashing Slam on the SECOND strike, since if it hits you trip automatically. Meaning (ignoring off-guard for a moment due to potential flanking or other similar things) you're looking at

Strike, Strike -5, trip if second Strike hits

rather than

Strike, trip if first Strike hits, Strike at -10

This just seems...odd.

You're comparing a stance to a flourish. Slam Down/Crashing Slam may also trigger additional riders on the auto-crit, if any such exist.

Considering that Player Core 2 didn't get any updates, it could be that Wolf Drag could be due the same sort of update. Like how man Player Core 2 feats with mature animal companions would be entitled to the enhanced movement opportunities, I'd recommend compiling your findings as a potential errata in the Fall 2026 errata thread for easier dev consideration.

the same reason tiger slash get third damage die at level 14 instead of 18

these stance feat need some advantage to compete with other martial option

despite being auto trip feat at level 6 wolf drag are still not that popular compare to knockdown

Wow, why is the one action stance feat on a master proficiency class more powerful than the no stance feat on a legendary proficiency class.

You're comparing a stance to a flourish. Slam Down/Crashing Slam may also trigger additional riders on the auto-crit, if any such exist.

I've never heard of any riders? Remember the auto-crit is on the trip, so it lacks all weapon traits (including magic so does nothing to incorporeals) and doesn't trigger weapon criticals or runes or anything.

Agonarchy wrote:

You're comparing a stance to a flourish. Slam Down/Crashing Slam may also trigger additional riders on the auto-crit, if any such exist.

I've never heard of any riders? Remember the auto-crit is on the trip, so it lacks all weapon traits (including magic so does nothing to incorporeals) and doesn't trigger weapon criticals or runes or anything.

I believe it works with "The Harder They Fall", but it at least opens up the possibility. At a minimum, it's a second instance of damage, which is worse if they have bludgeon resist, but better if they have vulnerability.

The main difference is, of course, still the stance.

I believe it works with "The Harder They Fall", but it at least opens up the possibility.

So if you're rogue multi-classed and pick up both the sneak attack and THTF feat, you gain another 3.5 damage in this scenario.

The main difference is, of course, still the stance.

I mean, which worst case you're spending 1 action at the start of combat to enter (on a class with excellent action compression) and starting at level 12 you have the option to not even spend that action.

And again, in most scenarios this doesn't even have an impact (move + Crashing Slam, Intimidate + Crashing Slam, etc), the biggest impact is making Haste (or another source of Quickened) significantly worse than it used to be.

Well I played a wolf stance monk levels 1-11, and Wolf Drag proved really hard to use. Because very often you're spending an action to go into stance, and an action to move. Or an action to move, and then you have to choose between a Flurry plus another action, or Wolf Drag. It worked out a few times, but I don't think I've ever managed to crit with it. (Yes, I'm really looking forward to stance savant.)

Slam Down also works with reach weapons, so a fighter could move up to a non-reach enemy, slam them down, hit them when they get back up, and then they'd still need to move closer to the fighter before they can strike back. It's a sweet deal. Also it works with d10 and d12 weapons which is nice.

Different contexts between classes. It's simple as that.

Fighters are shock full of offensive capabilities, have a stacked chassis and a myriad of weapon options to build. Crashing Slam might be used with any weapon (that fills its requirements), including reaching options.
Wolf Drag not only is a chain feat, but it's also a Monk Feat. It's a different design context compared to Fighters with their +2 to hit and the level difference between feats also matters, also because the Monk's core gameplay surrounds itself Flurry of Blows, which means that Monks needs REALLY good attack options to compete with FoB otherwise you're spending more actions for less than FOB.

Also, the proficiency and damage difference is noticeable.

When a monk makes a Wolf Drag, starting from level 7 this monk will roll an expert check instead of a possible master check if it tries to directly make a normal Trip check. This normal Trip won't do a Strike damage of course but probably has a 10% higher chance to land and hit and also even with MAP this same monk can also try a FoB after the Trip making 2 Strike checks with one action and if it has Stunning Blows, also maybe stunning the target.

Also, Wolf Drag still a 1d8 agile, backstabber, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed and now fatal d12 too but the agile trait makes no difference if this is your first attack in the turn (what is probably the most common case), backstabber only works if the target is already off-guard (usually if you want to Trip, half of the reason is to put a target off-guard to you), finesse make the only trait that justifies something here because if you are dex based monk this allows the Wolf Drag to work with dex while athletics needs str, but if you are str based makes no difference, also if you are dex based probably your str dmg will be lower or inexistent, nonlethal is good but circumstantial, unarmed also means that nothing prevents you try to do a normal Trip, only fatal d12 is something here, if you crit. Also it requirest that you are in the Wolf Stance.

Now let us look a Fighter with a two-handed d12 weapon or a d10 reach weapon. It's master in their Strike proficiency since the level 5, so the Crashing Slam is rolled with the proficiency that you will do Trip anyway, it will do a d12 damage dice + str if you hit this roll too, you also will do 1d6 more damage due to the critical effect of Trip (Wolf Drag is an auto Trip but not a critical Trip so it doesn't make Trip extra damage) that also can be improved by 4d6 with Bracers of Hammers. Also fighters starts with Reaction Strike what means that they take on extra MAPless Strike if the enemy tries to Stand (monks can do too but requires to take Stand Still feat what means one more feat cost) but put the player in MAP-10.

IMO are pretty well balance with each-one having their own general benefits and flaws. If I bet, probably the main reason why the Paizo nerfed the Crashing Slam was to put it in the same MAP of the Vicious Strike. Vicious Swing is considered by many as a trap feat because the extra dices usually worse than 2 Strikes (specially the Exacting/Certain ones) except against targets with some physical resistance and its extension, the Furious Focus that “fixes” this removing the MAP wasn't considered good enough exactly because the fight could do a mapless Crashing Slam with an extra 1d6 and than Strike again with a MAP-5.

I'd dispute the notion that Crashing Slam was nerfed, rather than clarified. Nothing in the original version said that the usual rules of Trip didn't apply, and that would include incrementing MAP after you do it. All it did was give you an automatic critical success outcome.

People read that in a way favourable to them, as players are wont to do. All this change does is telling people to stop doing that.

Now let us look a Fighter with a two-handed d12 weapon or a d10 reach weapon. It's master in their Strike proficiency since the level 5, so the Crashing Slam is rolled with the proficiency that you will do Trip anyway, it will do a d12 damage dice + str if you hit this roll too, you also will do 1d6 more damage due to the critical effect of Trip (Wolf Drag is an auto Trip but not a critical Trip so it doesn't make Trip extra damage) that also can be improved by 4d6 with Bracers of Hammers. Also fighters starts with Reaction Strike what means that they take on extra MAPless Strike if the enemy tries to Stand (monks can do too but requires to take Stand Still...

The critical effect of Trip is much higher with Crashing Slam : "If you used a two-handed melee weapon for the Strike, you can use the weapon’s damage die size instead of the regular die size for the damage from a critical Trip."

People read that in a way favourable to them, as players are wont to do. All this change does is telling people to stop doing that.

I get the point you're making here.

I'm just used to seeing significant disagreement when players are taking advantage of a wording, but there was close to universal agreement on this in threads like this one.

And people making the point about Wolf Drag and Furious Drag.

As well as pointing out that Crashing Slam is having to compete with Disruptive Stance and Tactical Reflexes.

So when comparing it to similar abilities and the opportunity cost of taking it, Crashing Slam didn't seem like a too good to be true reading (saw a lot of jokes about how Paizo only printed one level 10 Fighter feat, Tactical Reflexes).

I'd dispute the notion that Crashing Slam was nerfed, rather than clarified. Nothing in the original version said that the usual rules of Trip didn't apply, and that would include incrementing MAP after you do it. All it did was give you an automatic critical success outcome.

People read that in a way favourable to them, as players are wont to do. All this change does is telling people to stop doing that.

That's true but once that the text refers to effect many people considered that the Attack trait doesn't enter into the effect. So for these people it was a nerf.

Tridus wrote:

People read that in a way favourable to them, as players are wont to do. All this change does is telling people to stop doing that.

I get the point you're making here.

I'm just used to seeing significant disagreement when players are taking advantage of a wording, but there was close to universal agreement on this in threads like this one.

And people making the point about Wolf Drag and Furious Drag.

As well as pointing out that Crashing Slam is having to compete with Disruptive Stance and Tactical Reflexes.

So when comparing it to similar abilities and the opportunity cost of taking it, Crashing Slam didn't seem like a too good to be true reading (saw a lot of jokes about how Paizo only printed one level 10 Fighter feat, Tactical Reflexes).

Oh I totally get why people read it that way and it's not out of ill intent. :) Sorry if it came across wrong.

Players just tend to read things in a positive way. It's totally normal. But the difference in wording between the two illustrates the point:
- One says you critically succeed at a Trip attempt
- The other says you knock the target prone

While those are effectively the same outcome since Trip knocks someone prone, one of them is doing the Trip and everything that comes along with it (including the Attack trait). The other one is simply "target goes prone as a rider on this attack."

Balance wise? eh. Slam Down is good and Crashing Slam removes a failure chance from it. I feel like it's still worth taking if you're building in that direction anyway, even if some other feats can be considered better.

So slam down moves down the list to be weaker than combat reflexes and disruptive stance its now skippable for a reach fighter when before it was one of the premier options.

Slam down is good if you can’t otherwise trip with the weapon, but if you can it’s not substantially better than attack -> trip (which still gets to trip if you miss the attack) or trip -> attack.

So slam down moves down the list to be weaker than combat reflexes and disruptive stance its now skippable for a reach fighter when before it was one of the premier options.

There are some combos it has, works with the harder they fall (ranger) and some apex item (I think it’s bracer of hammers?) to add some bonus damage.

Slam Down is good

It's not though?

Say you have a 60% chance to hit on a Strike and 60% chance to succeed on a trip.

So if you Slam Down you have a 60% chance to hit, and of the 60% of the time you hit you have a 60% chance to trip. So overall 0.6 hits and 0.36 trips per use.

Now say you Strike and then Trip. That's 60% chance to hit and then a 35% chance to trip. So overall 0.6 hits and 0.35 trips per use...practically identical.

How about 80% for each? 0.8 hits and 0.64 trips per use for Slam Down, 0.8 hits and 0.55 trips otherwise, so slightly better.

How about 40% for each? 0.4 hits and 0.16 trips per use for Slam Down, 0.4 hits and 0.15 trips otherwise.

So it's only marginally better vs enemies you have a very high success rate against already. Having to commit both actions even if the Strike misses hurts a lot. This is simplifying the math slightly but it gets at the main point.

I'm happy to run the numbers in other scenarios, but like ScooterScoots said it's not substantially better if you have a trip weapon, the main purpose is allowing trips with a non-trip weapon.

Crashing Slam is when you were supposed to get a major upgrade (especially with Kip Up becoming a lot more common at that level) and your class feats overall are a lot more powerful.

You’d be surprised how much difficulty many redditors have in understanding this.

In practice what makes pure Slam Down numerically better than Strike + Trip is its higher proficiency. You simply doesn't get expert in atletics before level 3 nor master before level 7, but in the levels 3-4 and 7-13 (ignoring the Crashing Slam) they are practically the same due fighter higher proficiency.

The other advantage is that it allows to use it Trip with non-trip trait weapons like d10 reach weapons (that allows to make a Trip at 10 ft) or non-trip weapon and board.

Just like all other low level fighters' feats they only gives some minor advantages to use. Usually something a bit better only within some conditions.

Reducing the number of rolls needed lets you use single-use buffs for both effects, like guidance or fortune effects. Plus no chance of tripping yourself.

In practice what makes pure Slam Down numerically better than Strike + Trip is its higher proficiency.

I'm not following you here. If you strike at +13 and have Athletics of +12 then...

Slam Down is Strike at +13 and IF you hit (really important point) then Trip at +12.

Otherwise you have Strike at +13 and Trip at 7.

Same proficiency in both cases.

Per the above, the fact that you get an effective +5 bonus on your trip with Slam Down is usually almost cancelled out by the fact the first Strike has to hit or it's just wasted.

The other advantage is that it allows to use it Trip with non-trip trait weapons like d10 reach weapons (that allows to make a Trip at 10 ft)

It's important to note the Guisarme is a d10 reach weapon with Trip and immensely popular for these reason. Especially given since the other d10 reach weapons tend to be underwhelming -- Halberd gets versatile piercing/slashing vs the pure slashing of a Guisarme, but it's very rare where piercing is better than slashing.

or non-trip weapon and board.

Alas this doesn't work.

"If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free."

So 2H weapon or hand free only, can't sword and board trip attempts.

Just like all other low level fighters' feats they only gives some minor advantages to use. Usually something a bit better only within some conditions.

I mean, Sudden Charge is a feat that basically says "Get an extra attack at MAP -5 if you have to move twice to reach an enemy" which is a fairly common thing.

Intimidating Strike is just really good overall for consistently applying Frightened with no cooldown, generally letting you trade a third attack at -10 for Frightened 1/2 if the first attack hits.

Etc.

Those are lower level feats with significantly better advantages.

Reducing the number of rolls needed lets you use single-use buffs for both effects, like guidance or fortune effects. Plus no chance of tripping yourself.

I assume this is referring to the original post about Crashing Slam vs the above discussion of Slam Down? Because Slam Down is still two rolls.

You're not wrong about being able to hero point or guidance one roll vs two (how often are you getting guidance at level 10+ though?) and eliminating the nat 1 case of tripping yourself...but if you DO trip yourself, you can literally just Kip Up as a free action since it's your turn. No harm done at all.

And those seem like very minor bonuses that should be part of a level 4 feat, not a level 10 feat that's competing with Tactical Reflexes, Disruptive Stance, etc.

YuriP wrote:

In practice what makes pure Slam Down numerically better than Strike + Trip is its higher proficiency.

I'm not following you here. If you strike at +13 and have Athletics of +12 then...

Slam Down is Strike at +13 and IF you hit (really important point) then Trip at +12.

Otherwise you have Strike at +13 and Trip at 7.

Same proficiency in both cases.

Per the above, the fact that you get an effective +5 bonus on your trip with Slam Down is usually almost cancelled out by the fact the first Strike has to hit or it's just wasted.

YuriP wrote:

The other advantage is that it allows to use it Trip with non-trip trait weapons like d10 reach weapons (that allows to make a Trip at 10 ft)

It's important to note the Guisarme is a d10 reach weapon with Trip and immensely popular for these reason. Especially given since the other d10 reach weapons tend to be underwhelming -- Halberd gets versatile piercing/slashing vs the pure slashing of a Guisarme, but it's very rare where piercing is better than slashing.

YuriP wrote:

or non-trip weapon and board.

Alas this doesn't work.

“If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free.”

So 2H weapon or hand free only, can't sword and board trip attempts.

YuriP wrote:

Just like all other low level fighters' feats they only gives some minor advantages to use. Usually something a bit better only within some conditions.

I mean, Sudden Charge is a feat that basically says “Get an extra attack at MAP -5 if you have to move twice to reach an enemy” which is a fairly common thing.

Intimidating Strike is just really good overall for consistently applying Frightened with no cooldown, generally letting you trade a third attack at -10 for Frightened 1/2 if the first attack hits.

Etc.

Those are lower level feats with significantly better advantages.

You are right you have a point I forgot that we still use the normal athletics and that it's limited to two-handed weapons.

But I still disagree about Sudden Charge and Intimidating Strike being a “significantly better advantages”.
The Sudden Charge still is very circumstantial and usually is dependent from most enemies being scattered along the battle map and due in most adventures the battles are indoor without much space to run and that most PF2e creatures are melee it's uncommon to use it more than once in the first turn to get closer to a target and do your first attack or to chase fleeing opponents. So it's rare to use it as second Strike.
Intimidating Strike for the other hand is more party useful than for the own fighter. Make a Strike with a MAP-10 or even MAP-8 in many cases means that you will only hit with a 20 unless the enemy are a weakling and when your enemy AC is low enough to your maximum MAP have higher chance to hit you probably will prefer to do 3 Strikes instead.

I like slam down because you can play a two-handed weapon user without requiring that you use a weapon with the trip trait.

Agonarchy wrote:

Reducing the number of rolls needed lets you use single-use buffs for both effects, like guidance or fortune effects. Plus no chance of tripping yourself.

I assume this is referring to the original post about Crashing Slam vs the above discussion of Slam Down? Because Slam Down is still two rolls.

You're not wrong about being able to hero point or guidance one roll vs two (how often are you getting guidance at level 10+ though?) and eliminating the nat 1 case of tripping yourself...but if you DO trip yourself, you can literally just Kip Up as a free action since it's your turn. No harm done at all.

And those seem like very minor bonuses that should be part of a level 4 feat, not a level 10 feat that's competing with Tactical Reflexes, Disruptive Stance, etc.

Not everyone has Kip Up. Guidance etc. are always useful unless you have something better, which may still be a one-action use.

It's quite possible that your and your party's choices don't make the best use of the feats, but it's easy enough to make use of.

The Sudden Charge still is very circumstantial and usually is dependent from most enemies being scattered along the battle map and due in most adventures the battles are indoor without much space to run and that most PF2e creatures are melee it's uncommon to use it more than once in the first turn to get closer to a target and do your first attack or to chase fleeing opponents. So it's rare to use it as second Strike.

If you have 20 movement speed (25 base - 5 from heavy armor), the enemy just has to be 30 feet away to require part of a second move. That's pretty close.

Plus if you engage an enemy to the right and some of the enemies go after a teammate (especially someone in the backline) to the left it's very easy for that space to be created.

I've found it to be consistently useful, both as a player in a normal game, a GM for two campaigns, and in Dawnsbury Days, an indie video game based on the PF2 ruleset (which you should absolutely play if you haven't yet).

I like slam down because you can play a two-handed weapon user without requiring that you use a weapon with the trip trait.

Yep.

But you expect Crashing Slam to be a significant upgrade compared to that given it's competing against other level 10+ feats.

Not everyone has Kip Up. Guidance etc. are always useful unless you have something better, which may still be a one-action use.

I would wager a significant majority of martials do have Kip Up at that higher level, it's too useful for when you get tripped or get knocked unconscious/dying.

Literally any status bonus is better than Guidance (Bless, Bard Song, Wand of Heroism, etc). At that point in the game (level 10+), even just moving, raising a shield, Demoralizing, etc is generally better than Guidance.

It's quite possible that your and your party's choices don't make the best use of the feats, but it's easy enough to make use of.

But the other level 10 feats do not require you to twist yourself into knots to be powerful.

Do you see that?

Tactical Reflexes is just good.

Disruptive Stance is just good.

Fearsome Brute is just good.

Certain Strike is just good.

Etc.

That's what Crashing Slam is being compared against. That's the opportunity cost.

The problem for myself and my party groups is that extra speed is pretty easy to get and to stack in PF2e. So it's not rare for my characters to have way more speed than 20ft. I have a friend that made characters with up to 60ft move speed easily (OK in a mid to high level games but even in lower level games you can easy stack some ancestry speed bonus with general feat speed bonus and a spell/alchemical speed bonus).

About the suggestion to buy Dawnsbury Days. Well I already waste my money to get Early Access of Starfinder Afterlight. :P