The Nightgaunt's page

I figured out one bit at least. We are meant to use BOTH mech points and UPB. Mech points are how big you can build your mech and how much you can put on it. But you have to be able to actually afford those parts via UPB.

There are a few spots in the AP where it says basically (paraphrased) "Because the PCs have unlimited resources here, they can upgrade their mechs without needing to worry about UPB costs, as long as they have enough Mech Points".

There's just no UPB price list that I've found so far.

I'm getting ready to run Mechageddon and I came across some confusing rules regarding mech upgrading in the adventure path.

On page 4 of Mechageddon the book is clear that credits are supposed to be used for character gear and UPB for upgrading mechs.

"Credits are intended to help the PCs purchase new equipment, while UPBs are provided as material for upgrading their mechs."

And throughout the adventures the players are rewarded with vast hordes of UPB. Many encounters in act 3 rewarding tens of thousands UPB per encounter. And the purpose of UPB is repeated multiple times throughout the book. ex "...pays each PC 25,000 credits for completing the job and approves a work order worth 6,250 UPBs each for mech upgrades and repairs."

But in Tech Revolution, mech construction and upgrading is done via the Mech Point system. By level 20 a PC will have 300 Mech Points to spend on building their mech. The ONLY mention of UPBs is for repairing mechs, and even then, the normal cost is 10UPB per HP. So a tier 14 mech with 170hp would only cost 1,700 UPB to repair from zero.

So there seems to be a gap here.

TR has mechs created and upgraded with Mech Points, a level based build point system. Mech parts only have prices listed in terms of Mech Points. And usually not that many mech points. A chainwhip costs "tier x3" so a Tier 20 mech would have a chainwhip that costs 60 Mech Points, That's not a lot compared to PCs getting rewarded with close to 60,000 UPB at one point.

Mechageddon has mechs upgraded with UPB, a currency used as an alternative to credits. And it's clear these are meant to be used to upgrade the PC's mechs.

But I can't find where these two rule system meet. It seems like something is missing.

I've seen a comment on a reddit thread where someone thought that maybe PCs are supposed to use the "Scaling Equipment" rules from Starfinder Enhanced to calculate the cost of mech upgrades. But that seems to just be a guess as Mechegeddon doesn't seem to recommend using it.

Also there's no indication if the UPB upgrades are meant to supplement Mech Points, or be a replacement for Mech Points (a currency to buy, sell and trade mech parts in a mech based campaign. Like how it works in Mechwarrior).

Am I missing the part in Mechageddon where this is explained? Is there an errata?

How have you dealt with this in your own Mechageddon campaigns?

Glad I saw this, not really on forums much these days. I'll be running Pathfinder 1e based Spelljammer campaigns soon on Start Playing Games, and am looking at ways to put what I have out there without falling afoul of IP issues. As a freelancer I've got to be extra careful about such things.

That would be amazing. I understand and I hope you find a way.

I'm prepping a 1e PF spelljammer game right now and I've been trying to track down anything from the old Google+ group since it's all gone now.

Doc Necrotic also hangs out at the Piazza, and might know of some more stuff.

Thank you. I checked with him but sadly no luck. I messaged "Loki" about it so I'm hoping I hear back from him.

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

Thanks guys.

xorial thanks for the link though it's not exactly the direction I'm heading. It does have a few gems though.

Well, Loki is the admin for the G+ Spelljammer group.

I know this is an ancient post and I'm sorry for reviving it. But does anyone know where these Pathfinder/Spelljammer resources can be found? Google+ is dead now so the links are a deadend sadly.

Thank you.

Yeah, that's what you get when they hire a corporate CEO, we can phrase it as we want, but it's damn obvious they want to simply eliminate their competitors and Paizo is probably the first on their target list.

It may have something to do with the fact that now the Hasbro CEO is former Microsoft, the president of Wizards of the Coast is former Microsoft and Amazon, and the VP now in charge of D&D is former Microsoft 365.

While I am a lawyer, I am not an expert in licensing law. It is all but certain that this will be litigated in court and it will be expensive. BUT I also believe that WotC is on shaky ground at best since the original license states that it is a "perpetual, worldwide, [and] non-exclusive license."

There would also be a clear defense of Latches and Equitable Estopple, which are fancy legal jargon which generally mean that if a party relies you your statements to their detriment, you can't then change your mind midstream.

Obviously, this is but the first salvo in a fight that may last until Pathfinder 3E.

Appreciate the appraisal from a professional. I'm an MBA with an interest in contract and IP law and I know some of the basics but this one is a doozy to me. It's been a heck of a time trying to explain the issue with this to some folks.

It seems like one of those cases where someone up in c-suite get's a really stupid idea and doesn't listen to the warnings from the guys in legal. One of those "we can violate the contract because we REALLY want to. BRILLIANT!" ideas.

But one that frankly is going to do real damage to the hobby until it get's challenged in court. Now here's the fun question. Multiple lawsuits or a big class-action?

People publishing under the 1.0a OGL will say: The 1.0a OGL was explicitly advertised and marketed as irrevocable. We'll continue to abide by its terms, but we do not acknowledge that you can terminate it at your discretion and do not feel bound by the terms of OGL 1.1

Wizards of the Coast will say: We can terminate the 1.0a OGL and update it to 1.1 and in fact have, now pay us 20-25% of your revenue if you make over 750k

Given that we've had this whole fight before in 2008 and that the GSL was deliberately named differently rather than being marketed as an update to the original 3.0 OGL I suspect the nays have the stronger argument, but if anybody wants to force the issue it'll ultimately be up to a court.

Mark Seifter and Stephen Glicker were skeptical that this would affect anything PF/SF related.

Let's be honest here. In the IP war that's comming, Paizo's basically going to be our Gondor.

A GM guide to an AP is an interesting idea, but in a perfect world, the AP itself is the GM's guide. An AP that needs a supplementary guide for the GM to play it, to me, indicates that the AP isn't functioning in its intended role.

And yeah, I'm fully aware that means that some of our APs are more successful in this area than others. It's a constant struggle! :-P

It's an unfortunate side effect of the module writing process. From the intros in these modules it's clear that Paizo is first greenlighting an AP and then publishing the moment a module is finished. The downside to this is that the events of say, modules 5 and 6 are probably not even clearly sketched out by the time module 1 hits the printer. So it would take a very organized and detail oriented team to pull this trick off perfectly. It's kind of the price we pay for them getting good product out as fast as they do. In tabletop gaming, if you're not publishing, you're drowning (look at what happened to Eden Studios). I'm just glad Pathfinder's doing as well as they appear to be doing. But as a GM it results in a slightly frustrating scenario.

I mean, I don't want to buy every single book of an AP before I run it just so I know how it's going to turn out. I passed on Reign of Winter because I got lucky and skimmed through module 5 "rasputin must die" before I spent any money on it. I know that module would ruin it for my group (They don't like mixing genres).

IMO, albeit from limited experience, the amount of GM material in an AP book far exceeds that of the module description itself. This viewpoint considers the gazeteers, sidebars, tales, forewards, etc. Maybe the older APS weren't as detailed (the OP was for an OGL/3.5E AP, correct?), but the several newer ones I have read are chock full of GM guidance. I'm learning how to GM on them, in fact.

Well, I'll be honest here, I don't have a ton of direct experience with the Pathfinder AP's here. I've played a few, looked through a bunch, and only ran 2 (my current Carrion Crown, and co-GMing 2 modules of Kingmaker).

I'll use Kingmaker and Carrion Crown as examples here. In Kingmaker (a really fun AP) 1 "Stolen Land" we get 2 pages covering the AP. That's about 2/3rds of a page on the actual plot and overarching story, then a paragraph each per module. Module 3 is just described as "neighboring region goes silent, PC's investigate and find it empty. Do battle with centaurs, fey and a (SPOILERS). PC's have to take over the region". That's it. It's very vague info, and that makes sense given that they were still writing those later modules when Stolen Land was going to the printer. But it's not really enough for a GM to look at it and really get into the planning side of things.
Carrion Crown can be just as vague. In the back of the first module Haunting of Harrowstone we get 1/2 a page to the overall plot of the AP, and no mention of Vrood's role in the adventure despite the fact that that NPC is the linking device that should be used to pull the PC's through the first 2 modules and into the real conflict with the WW in book 3.

That's the kind of material I could see working in some sort of GM guide. I'm actually really surprised that there isn't a Pathfinder AP wiki out there.
...
Actually, that would be a pretty fun project and a lot easier to bring together then a single guide (since multiple people could post on it). Has anyone done that yet?

I don't think AP-specific GM Guides are a terrible idea, but three things:

1) The Philosophical Objection: I actually think that sorting through the community-created content is better. Yeah, it takes longer, but you have more options. Some of them you'll love, and some of them you'll hate ... but the ones you hate, someone else will love, and vice-versa.

2) The Practical Objection: Paizo is producing all the content they can with the staff they have in the time they have available. It's not like they're kicking around at the end of the month, playing solitaire and checking Facebook, wondering if there's something else they could be doing with their time. Heck, their schedule slips a month behind at least once every year in one of the product lines. Producing a new book twice a year would require hiring new employees or cutting current production.

3) The Capitalist Objection: Paizo's business is kept afloat by subscriptions, people buying new product every month when it is first released. They want everything they're doing to be pushing their new APs, not harkening back to old products, because they want to attract new subscribers more than they want to empty their warehouse. People buying old stuff they still have around is great ... but not as great as people committing to buying the stuff that's going to be coming out every month.

1) Quite so. There's a lot of great material available here. But the lack of organization is a killer. I know some GM's who would walk away from modules they'd love to run if I told them that in order to know what's going on in the campaign they'd have to trawl through a discussion board.

2) One benefit of such a product would be that most of the info and resources needed to create it already exist. Art assets can be reused and you've got experts in the entire AP right there. Failing that they could bring in some contact workers to hammer out 32 pages. And while it's great to keep people coming in and playing the new stuff, selling the old stuff is still moving product. Apple doesn't look at a stack of iPhone 5's and say "well, send 'em to the dump, we only sell 6's now". Not every group is going to want to play the new AP. From book 1 I couldn't stand Council of Thieves and so while it was coming out Paizo didn't get any of my money (though I was just playing pathfinder at that time anyway). But if they tried to sell me on an older AP with a different tone, I might buy it.

3) True. But if you can appeal to both groups without cannibalizing your market, why not do that? If the cost on a product is relatively low because you reuse the art, hand it out to some contract workers, and only publish via PDF on the store, then you might make some money on it. It might be a way to bring players to AP's that didn't get as much attention when they were running.
Or better yet, roll it into the first chapter on an "Anniversary Edition" like they did with Rise of the Runelords. Or just as a discounted digital bundle with free GM guide "30% off the cover prices!!!"

One of the potential issues with creating a new product for these older Paths is the partial unavailability of physical copies. If someone buys the Carrion Crown guide, only to find that print copies are unavailable from Paizo (and command ludicrous prices on the secondary market), they probably won't have a lot of good feeling for Paizo. Even if only a few react this way, it's still a factor for the people at the top who have to approve such a product.

Aren't many of the AP's available as PDFs on the Paizo store here on the website?

There is no point in putting it out then, especially when the community has already done their job for them.

Well. 2 reasons.

First, because the community hasn't already done their job for them. I've been going through the discussion boards here for something like this for Carrion Crown and Iron Gods and haven't found anything yet. There's a lot of useful material on there but nothing close to guide level or quality.
Second, because not everyone runs an AP while it's brand new and being published. A lot of people run modules and AP's long after they went to print. And a guide might attract GM's to AP's that they haven't run in the past.

Part of the issue is the way print matter works. When the first volume goes to the printers, they may be still working on the 3rd 4th 5 th and 6th books of the AP. ( I believe the print deadline for the early August books is May, so I'm guessing 2-3 months average) this means that if they were to wait for a gm book yo be written they would either have to wait for the last manuscript to come in to get the level of detail you are asking for, meaning it would come out at least 6 months after the last book, or write it in house.. And many paizo staffers are already doing 60 hours weeks at least nice a month

Oh absolutely. When I started reading though the forward for Haunting of Harrowstone, the author mentions that issue with how they publish their AP's. So a GM guide wouldn't be something that you could print before the module comes out. It would really be a product aimed at GM's who are looking at an AP after it's been published.

In the first part of each Adventure Path, there's a two page spread (usually at the back of the book) giving an outline of the entire campaign. It's probably not enough detail to know you main villain's every motivation, but it should be enough to tell you if you'd be interested in buying the rest of the books.

There is, but it's nowhere near a comprehensive guide. In a number of them the descriptions given for the events that occur in each module is literally just the product summary.

The Nightgaunt wrote:

I've looked at the various Assistance threads here and they are a great resource. I'm running Carrion Crown module 1 right now and some of the haunting ideas I seen on these boards for Harrowstone Prison have been fantastic.
But the downside of them is that data is very spread out and it doesn't really work well for a GM looking for a clean and comprehensive layout of the AP's plan.

Carrion Crown is notorious for its big bad feeling disconnected from the story. I haven't read a huge number of APs, but the ones I have looked over seem to do a better job of bringing out the main antagonist and outlining their goals and what they plan on doing to achieve them (Reign of Winter and Hell's Rebels being good examples, even if it takes until book 2 for the PCs to realize who they are fighting in Reign of Winter).

Unfortunately, the assumption does seem to be "read at least the outlines of all six books in an AP before you start," which I recognize can be frustrating. Perhaps you could be a pioneer in this as of yet unexplored field on the boards? I'm sure if you posted the information you seek in the Carrion Crown threads (once you have said information) people would be grateful :-) I think I may do that with Reign of Winter some day soon... hmmmm...

:p

But that would require me to actually do some work! Heh. It's something that has been going through my mind recently though. Unfortunately it wouldn't be for at least a year min. I'm helping write a module for my friend's game "Victorious: Steampunk Adventure in the Age of SuperMankind" (woot!) and working on my own setting in my spare time.

I believe some APs actually provide that level of detail in the first two pages of each part. That said, Paizo also recommends owning all six books of an AP before running it so you have a better idea of what is going on.

And I might suggest Hell's Rebels as a good AP that does provide a sense of NPCs that drive the conflict forward.

That's actually not far from what I was hoping for. The modules do a pretty good job of laying out the events that will happen during the module, it's background, and the region. But something like that for the AP as a whole would be very useful. Going off the Carrion Crown AP as my example here (since I'm running it atm). Auren Vrood is a significant NPC antagonist in the AP. And his actions in the first module Haunting of Harrowstone, sets off the events of the AP. And it's one NPC's description of him that is meant to be the clue that sets the PC off on his trail in later modules. So why isn't he covered at the start of the AP?

Part of this does come down to a difference of gaming styles. The AP's are laid out in a very linear way. Some GM's will run the modules like a script, in order with no deviation. Others will run them as they like in a haphazard way. Slipping side quests in between modules or even events within a module. For that latter group of GM's knowing how everything is supposed to unravel would be indispensable knowledge to have from the start.

It's also a bit tricky to pull that info out of the individual modules as in some cases they really were written as separate adventures tied together with the common thread of the AP. And while I would like to grab all 6 modules at the start, I'm not dropping that kind of cash on a single campaign. Games die out all the time, and campaigns will often crash. Job's are gained and lost, shifts are moved, students graduate, and classes get in the way. So I buy modules and their books for what's going to be run in the foreseeable future. I've still never gotten a group beyond the first part of the 2nd Ed. adventure "Night Below" or very far into "Rod of Seven Parts". Both groups fell apart and once I rebuilt the group, I wasn't interested in rerunning 2 months of the same adventure from the start.

Though I'll take a look at Hell's Rebels. Thanks ^_^

Huh, I wonder why I never thought of GM guides before...

Anyway, if you ever have issues with an AP, Paizo's forums here are a great help. Just go the AP's specific sub-forum and scan the page for assistance threads or start your own. You'll find more than enough people are willing to work with you on helping you understand and expland the points of the APs so that the campaign and villains work.

I've looked at the various Assistance threads here and they are a great resource. I'm running Carrion Crown module 1 right now and some of the haunting ideas I seen on these boards for Harrowstone Prison have been fantastic.

But the downside of them is that data is very spread out and it doesn't really work well for a GM looking for a clean and comprehensive layout of the AP's plan.

I've been running games almost constantly for about 15 years now. We've changed games, players, real-life cities, but GMing has been a constant that whole time. So just this last year I started GMing a Pathfinder game and I am both thrilled by the material and sorely disappointed by it.

As modules the Adventure Paths are fantastic. The art, writing, and challenges are great. But from a campaign perspective they are CRAP. Sorry, but they are. Let me explain, then please prove me wrong. I would like to be wrong here because I really like the game. ^_^

Now the issue might be that there's a book or resource that I don't know about, please tell me if that's the case.
As a GM I like to know what the point is for my campaigns. I plan out the villains, their goals, and how they plan to achieve those goals. I layout clues like bread crumbs for players to follow. But the Adventure Paths don't seem to be designed with that style of GMing in mind.

Take Carrion Crown for example. The first module sets up a very vague idea of what the main plot of the campaign will be, but it fails to setup anything on the NPCs that are meant to drive the conflict forward. The main antagonist is vaguely described and his plans are not elaborated on at all. In order to get even a vague idea of what's going on, a GM needs to read through every single adventure module before running that first adventure. That's a very tall order, especially if you're not sure that a game will last long enough to make buying the whole AP worth it.

As the GM, I have a slightly better idea of what's going on than the players, but the gap is not that large.

What would help and what I would really really appreciate is a GM Guide to each AP. I would happily pay for a GM version of the Players Guides that Paizo produces for each AP for the players. A book laying out who the main Antagonists are, 1-2 NPCs of note from each module (the most important ones), what the Antagonists plans are and an outline of the events that will occur during the AP. I would like to have that core knowledge beforehand so that I can plan the transition from module to module so that it's an almost seamless move.

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this thread. If it's better suited for a different forum on this site please let me know.

I'm looking into self-publishing my own setting using PDFs, and it looks like my best bet would be to follow in Pathfinder's footsteps, so to speak, and use the "no actually d20" OGL.

I'm a big fan of Pathfinder and I've looked at how they incorporated the OGL into the design of their system and made it wonderfully unobtrusive in the design. They haven't had to segment off OGL content in grey boxes or format it differently, instead it's all covered by the first page of the Core Rule book in 2 paragraphs defining Product Identity and Open Content.

So does anyone know if that's ever caused the Pathfinder folks any issue? Most of the advice I've come across has been to explicitly set apart all OGL content within your book. But it looks like that's exactly what they didn't do with Pathfinder. Or are the rules just different for a decent sized company like Paizo?