Remaster Previews: Dragons Most Diabolical

I feel like Cheliax just got scarier.

These new dragons are additions to our dragon portfolio, not retcons meant to replace current dragons.

Like, who appeared in AP?

Just because…using home brew. Bestiary four, thank you by the way, has a lot of monsters from human myth. For some of the i managing, and abilities, may I suggest looking at actual myth? Working on the stats for a Russian dragon that is essentially a water being, with either one or three heads.

I will wait to see if your dragons fit this myth, but Kukulkan, even by a new name, could be fantastic. Yes, another mythology.

You did a fantastic job with La Llorona and a few other creatures of real myth.

Now need to get back to work, dragons are a distraction…though the party should come across a young version of this in a couple months. Creature designer online is good.

Nadin

Love that the dragon hoards soul filled gems and contracts! Dragon hoarding is iconic, and having the hoard be less generic and more of a reflection of their interests/theme/personality is just gorgeous!

BookBird wrote:

Are some of the "weird" Dragons from 1e past (Bliss, Dream, Vortex etc) still in consideration for future additions or other lore stuff, or have they been mostly disregarded given their very limited presence in their prior release? I remember being glad to see Cloud Dragons in the Mwangi Expanse, but the revamp of 2e and the introduction of new dragon types dims the hope for some of those more "out there" options.

All of the dragons from Pathfinder's past are definitely in consideration for updates. Some of them, like the chromatic and metallic dragons, will require additional considerations to "remaster" them and make them a good fit for the game going forward. We're also excited to create new "weird" dragons, too. There's one I can think of that we're adding to Monster Core that feels very weird and creepy, at least to me, so hopefully it scratches that itch a bit!

I'm looking forward for the remastered classical dragons, as well as bigger groupings of dragons like the 'hell dragons' for lack of a better term. The chromatic and metallics are going to be the most interesting to me as I imagine you'll figure out a way to change them to stand out even more from the DnD dragons with new names and other features...just make me wonder if there is going to be a adventure path inspired from this remastering period.

8 dragons in Monster Core divided by four traditions of magic = 1 good and 1 evil dragon per tradition, I would think?

Considering alignment is being removed, I doubt it'll be a good/evil split for any tradition other than divine.

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While there aren't enough slots for it in this book - Dragons defined by the Arcane tradition makes me wonder if we'd someday get a set of dragons that embody each of the arcane schools of magic.

James Jacobs wrote:

These new dragons are additions to our dragon portfolio, not retcons meant to replace current dragons.

Like, who appeared in AP?

e.g. Mengkare

Well considering they aren't republishing that existing AP there's no need to to have a different dragon than that one. Going forward we're probably going to see some fun new dragons in APs, at least until they come up with a way to reintroduce chromatic and metallic. That still doesn't mean they're being replaced.

Very very cool! I can feel the creativity bursting out of the Paizo team, keep it going!

I'm excited more for Primal dragons! Are we gonna get elemental bois?? Can't wait to see a sick new Fire dragon!!!

I always really liked the storyline of "getting into Hell to get back your soul". Now you can do that and fight a dragon for the privilege! Good times :D

we're gonna need a dragon-based ancestry to go with these brand-new dragons

What does this mean for kobolds, draconic bloodline sorcerers, etc.? Any new options for them as a result of this apparent shift of draconic focus?

What does this mean for kobolds, draconic bloodline sorcerers, etc.? Any new options for them as a result of this apparent shift of draconic focus?

I think there’s a very good reason the Barbarian and Sorcerer are in the same book as playable Kobolds, Player Core 2, which comes out after the book these new dragons debut in.

What's an occult dragon look like? Spectral, ghost, shadow? A dragon made out of Harrow cards? Blood dragon? The idea begs the imagination.

we're gonna need a dragon-based ancestry to go with these brand-new dragons

We already have a dragon-based ancestry. It's the best ancestry.

Archdracolich wrote:

we're gonna need a dragon-based ancestry to go with these brand-new dragons

We already have a dragon-based ancestry. It's the best ancestry.

But for real though, kobolds being the only dragon related ancestry kind of sucks

Like I get it, we all love kobolds and kobolds are fun but man it sucks when the only dragon related ancestry is known for being cowardly with things like “cringe”.

We were told in the livestreams Paizo are looking at bringing back Wyvaren, so there’s that at least

Though honestly, I think Paizo making a brand new type of dragon that is a dragon type, walking on all fours and wings but is medium sized and playable could be cool and fun. Have them be like Spyro in that they can’t fly but can only glide, but they can fly later on with a feat

Ancient Green Kobold wrote:

Archdracolich wrote:

we're gonna need a dragon-based ancestry to go with these brand-new dragons

We already have a dragon-based ancestry. It's the best ancestry.

But for real though, kobolds being the only dragon related ancestry kind of sucks

Like I get it, we all love kobolds and kobolds are fun but man it sucks when the only dragon related ancestry is known for being cowardly with things like “cringe”.

I mean, Cringe is a single Ancestry Feat - it's not any more essential to Kobolds than Explosive Savant or Vengeful Hatred is to Dwarves. It's trivial to not take it, and we have increasing numbers of Kobolds basically just being treated like normal, 'civilized' people in 2e stuff. They're basically just another type of smallfolk now.

We were told in the livestreams Paizo are looking at bringing back Wyvaren, so there’s that at least

Though honestly, I think Paizo making a brand new type of dragon that is a dragon type, walking on all fours and wings but is medium sized and playable could be cool and fun. Have them be like Spyro in that they can’t fly but can only glide, but they can fly later on with a feat

I still haven't been able to hunt down that Wyvaran comment in the VODs, but I've been making noise about their return for years now! I'd love them and/or a Draconic VH in Player Core 2 like some have speculated.

There's not much need for official quadrupedal player dragons when Battlezoo has that covered - but thankfully, those rules are quite solid! I think they even have your glide -> flight Feat chain you mention.

Battlezoo will need to integrate the new dragons :-)

Mirage dragon is Arcane then. Interesting, as some people previously pegged it as Occult, which did seem fitting.

Truly the team has not been idle.

I don’t know if this will be taken into consideration or not, but is Dragon still a unified family of creatures anymore? If so how will it fit into recalling knowledge? It seems a little weird for Diabolical Dragons to only be identifiable by religion as a skill if they share a lot of functionality with dragons of other traditions.

Personally, I would love to see the rigidity of recalling knowledge tied to magic traditions broken down a little in the core one, but losing dragons generally from arcane is a pretty big hit to that skills usefulness. It also probably makes it more important to specify in the rules who decides what skill will be being used to recall knowledge to not penalize players who’s GMs make the player pick the skill when there are the same creatures getting split between traditions.

Hm, I am generally not wild about the "no forearms" (yeah, I know that they are supposed to be the wings, thank you) model for dragons. I hope this won't be the case for every of the Paizo dragons going forward.

AceofMoxen wrote:

8 dragons in Monster Core divided by four traditions of magic = 1 good and 1 evil dragon per tradition, I would think?

While I would expect one unambiguously good dragon in this upcoming batch, I think the rest will either be various forms of what we now call neutral, or else they won't be tied to current ideas of alignment. That would allow them to show up and have their character revealed by their actions. We can still do this with current Chromatics and Metallics, but player expectations can be a problem.

Love this! Like, seriously, that's everything I want in dragons--just about every dragon being a potential enemy if you don't play your cards right.

I can't say that diabolic dragons are my thing, exactly--I'm just a big fan of the idea that dragons should always be the bosses, and "part of the hierarchy of Hell" gives middle management energy to me--but they're undeniably extremely cool, and clearly a massive amount of talent and creativity went into their concept and design! I can't wait to see the rest!

The text on the concept art is well worth reading to see a hint of the thought process going into this.

Hm, I am generally not wild about the "no forearms" (yeah, I know that they are supposed to be the wings, thank you) model for dragons. I hope this won't be the case for every of the Paizo dragons going forward.

What do you mean? The Diabolic Dragon has visible forearms in the Side View part of the picture. The notes even talk about the arms having webbing that runs along the medial seam of the body.

magnuskn wrote:

Hm, I am generally not wild about the "no forearms" (yeah, I know that they are supposed to be the wings, thank you) model for dragons. I hope this won't be the case for every of the Paizo dragons going forward.

What do you mean? The Diabolic Dragon has visible forearms in the Side View part of the picture. The notes even talk about the arms having webbing that runs along the medial seam of the body.

Oh, you're correct! I mistook those for his legs, because the actual legs look so tiny, I took them part of his wings. Sorry, my mistake.

Although in that case the dragon looks distinctly more gorilla-like than cat-like. Not sure if I like that. ^^

CaptainRelyk wrote:

Ancient Green Kobold wrote:

Archdracolich wrote:

we're gonna need a dragon-based ancestry to go with these brand-new dragons

We already have a dragon-based ancestry. It's the best ancestry.

But for real though, kobolds being the only dragon related ancestry kind of sucks

Like I get it, we all love kobolds and kobolds are fun but man it sucks when the only dragon related ancestry is known for being cowardly with things like “cringe”.

I mean, Cringe is a single Ancestry Feat - it's not any more essential to Kobolds than Explosive Savant or Vengeful Hatred is to Dwarves. It's trivial to not take it, and we have increasing numbers of Kobolds basically just being treated like normal, 'civilized' people in 2e stuff. They're basically just another type of smallfolk now.

Quote:

We were told in the livestreams Paizo are looking at bringing back Wyvaren, so there’s that at least

Though honestly, I think Paizo making a brand new type of dragon that is a dragon type, walking on all fours and wings but is medium sized and playable could be cool and fun. Have them be like Spyro in that they can’t fly but can only glide, but they can fly later on with a feat

I still haven't been able to hunt down that Wyvaran comment in the VODs, but I've been making noise about their return for years now! I'd love them and/or a Draconic VH in Player Core 2 like some have speculated.

There's not much need for official quadrupedal player dragons when Battlezoo has that covered - but thankfully, those rules are quite solid! I think they even have your glide -> flight Feat chain you mention.

The mention of Wyvaren coming are in one of the two livestreams about the remaster announcement when I sent in the question. I forgot which one

Also, battlezoo isn’t official. Lots of places don’t allow 3pp products, I swear it’s like people treat anything third party in PF2e like it’s the plague, and this is especially true for westmarch/living world. If someone knows of a westmarch living world discord server that allows Battlezoo, do let me know. If an official medium sized dragon race was made, then that wouldn’t be an issue anymore

And also, official medium sized dragon race means it can be bought with ACP in PFS and worked towards, so there’s that.

I think we've amply discussed the issue of wyvarens and kobolds in other threads at this point.

I'm honestly just so excited to be getting so many new dragons. It's like Christmas is coming early. And they're mostly morally ambiguous! I love that!

keftiu wrote:

CaptainRelyk wrote:

Ancient Green Kobold wrote:

Archdracolich wrote:

we're gonna need a dragon-based ancestry to go with these brand-new dragons

We already have a dragon-based ancestry. It's the best ancestry.

But for real though, kobolds being the only dragon related ancestry kind of sucks

Like I get it, we all love kobolds and kobolds are fun but man it sucks when the only dragon related ancestry is known for being cowardly with things like “cringe”.

I mean, Cringe is a single Ancestry Feat - it's not any more essential to Kobolds than Explosive Savant or Vengeful Hatred is to Dwarves. It's trivial to not take it, and we have increasing numbers of Kobolds basically just being treated like normal, 'civilized' people in 2e stuff. They're basically just another type of smallfolk now.

Quote:

We were told in the livestreams Paizo are looking at bringing back Wyvaren, so there’s that at least

Though honestly, I think Paizo making a brand new type of dragon that is a dragon type, walking on all fours and wings but is medium sized and playable could be cool and fun. Have them be like Spyro in that they can’t fly but can only glide, but they can fly later on with a feat

I still haven't been able to hunt down that Wyvaran comment in the VODs, but I've been making noise about their return for years now! I'd love them and/or a Draconic VH in Player Core 2 like some have speculated.

There's not much need for official quadrupedal player dragons when Battlezoo has that covered - but thankfully, those rules are quite solid! I think they even have your glide -> flight Feat chain you mention.

The mention of Wyvaren coming are in one of the two livestreams about the remaster announcement when I sent in the question. I forgot which one

Also, battlezoo isn’t official. Lots of places don’t allow 3pp products, I swear it’s like people treat anything third party in PF2e like it’s the plague, and this is especially true for...

So yeah, if it’s made official it’s more likely to be more accepted but if a medium sized dragon ancestry is only available through battlezoo then it’s not going to be widely accepted for the simple fact that it’s third party

A lot of people in the PF don’t like third party things and avoid it like the plague

I don't know why you're quoting yourself here to repeat what you just said five hours ago. It comes across like you're trying very hard to get us to respond to that post, but there's nothing to respond to. As I said, we've already talked about wyvarens elsewhere. You may not realize it, but this is spam.

** spoiler omitted **

As someone helping in a LW that doesn't allow 3pp (including Battlezoo) and is probably why Relyk is ranting about it again... Its for more reasons than just "3pp bad" and adding it to a LW has significantly more story alterations than in a home game. Please consider there's more to it than just being mean and allergic to third party content.

While I'm sorry our game doesn't give you the ability to play full-blooded dragons, please consider that we (and every other person's games) have our own reasons which can range from "we want to experience the game as is before adding to it" to "this simply doesn't fit the story of our world".

...Wyvaran are already medium sized, so why would tiny wyvaran (a child?) Say they are related to "more powerful kobolds"? Or that said kobold is a dire wyvaran? Are people really thinking that wyvaran are small/tiny?

Or is it just a just joke that flew over my head?

It's a joke, yeah.

What's an LW?

Edit: Never mind, found it. "Living World."

To be honest, I would have loved it if Battlezoo's options had been published under Paizo, but they were not. What I would love more than anything is a Paizo half-dragon versatile heritage.

I can get a PFS-legal quarter dragon via the lore claiming that most sylphs in the Mwangi Expanse are descended from Cloud Dragons, but not a half-dragon.

Still Kobolds are awesome if you want to dive deep in dragon-content.

I am actually really glad Paizo didn't publish any dragon based heritages before making this pretty massive shift in lore to tradition-based dragons. If there was any concern about half dragon heritages treading on protected IP, it is pretty much going to go away when the dragons that these heritages could be based on are specifically tied to Golarion Lore in a unique fashion. Whether it was intentional or not (probably not from the beginning, outside of hesitancy to make anything too close to dragonborn), I think what we end up getting is going to be much better for having waited until after realigning dragons to magical traditions.

I'm curious, is there anything stopping PFS from legalizing third party content beyond maybe copyright concerns and the obvious extra work? Maybe they'll do that someday.

I'm curious, is there anything stopping PFS from legalizing third party content beyond maybe copyright concerns and the obvious extra work? Maybe they'll do that someday.

Probably because it'd be opening up the gates of having the vet and check every single 3PP to see if it's balanced enough for PFS play. It's a case of "if you allow one in, you have to allow them all in". Which, just from saying that, sounds like an absolute nightmare.

If they only treated Roll For Combat's 3PP content as PFS legal, that'd give RfC an unfair advantage over every other 3PP out there. As much as I love Mark Seifter and his work, I don't believe him working for a 3PP should change the rules of PFS.

I'm curious, is there anything stopping PFS from legalizing third party content beyond maybe copyright concerns and the obvious extra work? Maybe they'll do that someday.

Popper's Paradox would also apply as folks who support things that Paizo writers have specifically stated they do not want to write about would start publishing truly offensive material and then insist that Paizo use them for PFS, too.

Yeah, I guess I didn't consider the "unfair advantage" angle. I definitely wouldn't expect them to allow all third-party content--they're free to exclude actual Paizo content, so obviously they could do the same with 3pp content--but it would create a fairness issue if they didn't at least examine all the content available, and that would be overwhelming. You're right, Ezekieru.

Anyways, I think this is good to keep in mind when we say things like "PFS/Westmarch/whatever hates 3pp". It's usually not about any kind of grudge or prejudice, it's about workload management.

>>snip<<
Anyways, I think this is good to keep in mind when we say things like "PFS/Westmarch/whatever hates 3pp". It's usually not about any kind of grudge or prejudice, it's about workload management.

One of the GMs I had back in the day had a standing rule that if I wanted content in a game he was running, I had to buy the source material for him and give him a month to review it to see if it would fit in his setting.

I can understand a reason for wanting to keep things simpler.

I'm curious, is there anything stopping PFS from legalizing third party content beyond maybe copyright concerns and the obvious extra work? Maybe they'll do that someday.

If this were to happen, it would likely be via taking advantage of the ORC to reprint something from a 3PP in a Paizo Pathfinder product, which is the way such things have happened before via the OGL. That said, it's been very rare, so I wouldn't get my hopes up for any particular game element to be ported in.

To be honest, I would have loved it if Battlezoo's options had been published under Paizo, but they were not. What I would love more than anything is a Paizo half-dragon versatile heritage.

It's almost certainly too much to hope for, but PC2 is going to have a brand new versatile heritage, and it's the same book where the other dragon-focused material is showing up...

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

To be honest, I would have loved it if Battlezoo's options had been published under Paizo, but they were not. What I would love more than anything is a Paizo half-dragon versatile heritage.

It's almost certainly too much to hope for, but PC2 is going to have a brand new versatile heritage, and it's the same book where the other dragon-focused material is showing up...

If half dragons are coming, I hope it can be versatile in appearance

I already know some people are going to go for the “human with horns” like D&D3e’s half dragons, but me and others are gonna want a very draconic look, with a head like a dragon and a tail and full scales and everything, like half dragons in D&D5e or Belmazog. https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1546 https://www.worldanvil.com/uploads/images/7e10fc404270ff23ab418867bebbee23. jpg

Belmazog is a half black dragon, and she has a very strong draconic appearence, and that draconic appearance is what I would like

But some people are just gonna wanna play a half dragon that looks like a human with horns and maybe a couple scales, like Au’ra from final fantasy

If half dragons are coming, they should have versatile appeared like Nagaji. Nagaji could look like a human with a couple scales or maybe just serpent eyes, or they could look very snake like with snake head tail and everything

I'm curious, is there anything stopping PFS from legalizing third party content beyond maybe copyright concerns and the obvious extra work? Maybe they'll do that someday.

Long experience with 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder 1E + various organized play campaigns has taught me that it isn't so much the individual character options which wind up being unbalanced (though obviously that can happen), but the unforeseen interactions between multiple non-core options which end up being truly problematic. Consequently, I don't think it would be possible to balance third party options for PFS, irrespective of the balance of those options when considered in a vacuum.

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

To be honest, I would have loved it if Battlezoo's options had been published under Paizo, but they were not. What I would love more than anything is a Paizo half-dragon versatile heritage.

It's almost certainly too much to hope for, but PC2 is going to have a brand new versatile heritage, and it's the same book where the other dragon-focused material is showing up...

I honestly don’t think that’s a crazy hope at all! Plus, I’ve yet to hear another pitch for what that new VH could be…

Part of me is actually a little hesitant to bet on a half dragon heritage because with draconic sorcerers/barbarians, kobolds, the dragon disciple, and smaller things like the monk's dragon stance making it in here that might just be too many draconic options in one book. Although at the same time, there's really not much else that makes sense besides it, a VH tied to fey and the first world could make sense but that's all I can think of.

Gosh, I guess they'll just have to cut back on kobolds' draconic elements, what a shame...

;)

Part of me is actually a little hesitant to bet on a half dragon heritage because with draconic sorcerers/barbarians, kobolds, the dragon disciple, and smaller things like the monk's dragon stance making it in here that might just be too many draconic options in one book. Although at the same time, there's really not much else that makes sense besides it, a VH tied to fey and the first world could make sense but that's all I can think of.

We might have a lot of class options (though tbf dragon stance is just one feat and isn’t really too dragon-y), but race wise we only have kobolds, and while kobolds are lovable they are nowhere near the same as half dragons

Plus Paizo introducing half dragons while WoTC is going around calling half races “racist” and still not having half dragons in 5e would be a huge W for Paizo

Pathfinder 2e getting playable half DRAGONs before Dungeons and DRAGONs 5e does would be the ultimate move on Paizo’s part