Organized Play Monthly Update

I hope players will not look allowing other players to use their skills, even if the hireling may be a little better. These hirelings should not be used to outshine the other characters.

That's very unlikely to happen, since Hirelings don't have stat adjustments and can't benefit from most bonuses (including item bonuses), and can only use Recall Knowledge in combat.

Clarifying that in combat, they can only use Recall Knowledge and not any other use of a skill (so no Battle Medicine hireling). They can still use Recall Knowledge out of combat. I know you know that, but the phrasing could be misunderstood.

Gary Bush wrote:

I hope players will not look allowing other players to use their skills, even if the hireling may be a little better. These hirelings should not be used to outshine the other characters.

That's very unlikely to happen, since Hirelings don't have stat adjustments and can't benefit from most bonuses (including item bonuses), and can only use Recall Knowledge in combat.

Agreed. The only way that is likely is if the player with the hireling is higher level. And the other player is not very invested.

Level 8 w/ master hireling = +14
Vs
Level 5 w/ expert +2 stat +1 item bonus = 12

Add a level bump, and it closes the distance even more.

Thanks folks. It looks like the special I had signed up for is falling apart, so the time crunch is not quite so severe.

My character is a goblin barbarian and he's been living with the Mbe'ke dwarves since he saved the life of a dwarf in the Mwangi jungles between adventures, and they became blood brothers. My thought was that he could have three children of his dwarf brother tag along on his exploits as, sort-of, interns to the world of the Society. One, a smith (crafting), one, a medic (medicine) and one, a bookish fellow (society).

Anyway, that's as far as I've gotten in backstory. Any ideas for the Lore skills?

Blacksmithing, Anatomy and Scribing seem on brand.

Blacksmithing, Anatomy and Scribing seem on brand.

Knew about Scribing, didn't realize the others are Lores.

Nefreet wrote:

Blacksmithing, Anatomy and Scribing seem on brand.

Knew about Scribing, didn't realize the others are Lores.

Lores aren't an exhaustive list. They are sort of like professions from 1E. You can take whatever lore you want, as long as it's relatively consistent with the other ones and something that could realistically be known in world. It might be safest to pick off the list in the CRB or from the Backgrounds (plus the ones in the PFS guide), because those are more likely to show up in scenarios. But there have definitely been things that have shown up in scenarios that aren't on those lists.

Not seeing a list of lore skills in the PFS guide.

I think me may be talking about the lore skill gained from the Schools.

There is no list that I am aware of.

Yeah, the ones from the schools and the backgrounds that are in the guide, which includes things like Pathfinder Society Lore that I don't think is in the CRB.

Yeah, the ones from the schools and the backgrounds that are in the guide, which includes things like Pathfinder Society Lore that I don't think is in the CRB.

If you're talking about Legacy Backgrounds, I don't have access to that.

HERE are the Legacy Backgrounds.

Basically, if a Lore is already in print somewhere, it's more likely to show up in a scenario.

HERE are the Legacy Backgrounds.

Basically, if a Lore is already in print somewhere, it's more likely to show up in a scenario.

Okay, but like I said, I don't have access to those.

You don't need "access" to Lore subcategories.

I’m not saying to take the backgrounds. As Nefreet says, you don’t need access to take one of the lore skills that’s listed in the background if you’re taking the lore through another means. Anyone could take Aspis Lore by using one of their skill increases, for example. The reason I suggested looking at those for ideas is also as Nefreet says, because presumably if there are society backgrounds or schools giving the lore skill, then it’s a lore skill that might be likely to show up in a scenario at some point.

People are basically getting free hirelings for their highest level characters. They get to add skills and Lores they didn't think would be useful.

I don't see why people aren't having more fun with it.

At least choose some of the funner Lores from the list - I think I went with Midwifery Lore and Fishing Lore.

But if we're allowed to have multiple hirelings and choose one to bring - which I didn't realize we could do until just now - this is everyone's free shot at getting Butter Churning Lore or Hobo Code Lore or anything that they as players might time travel back to 1990 to showcase on David Letterman's Stupid Human Tricks.

I am about to have an absolute field day with Golarion's stupidest Lores.

Just missed the edit window - but as I was going through my characters, I realized I forgot my hireling named Gob Bluth, who provides my character with training in Arcana and Banana Lore.

Well, I didn't go that off the wall, but my "circus" troupe is made up of my Dwarven Rogue, a halfling named Vizzini with Nature, Warfare Lore, Poison Lore and Dubious Knowledge, and a large human named Fezzik with Intimidation, Group Coercion, Circus Lore, and Gladatorial Lore. "A word, my lady. We are but poor, lost circus performers." (It would have made more sense if I'd been a Swashbuckler)

I don't see why people aren't having more fun with it.

At least choose some of the funner Lores from the list - I think I went with Midwifery Lore and Fishing Lore.

Pathfinder "How'd your day go?"

Hireling 1 "8 pounds 4 ounces. You?"

Hireling 2 "Same!"

Decided to go with this:

Vortch's hirelings:

Three young dwarven siblings who consider Vortch their uncle (though they are quite a bit older than him).
Huei - the eldest, male, Crafting skill, Specialty Crafting (blacksmithing) skill feat, Dwarven Lore, Engineering Lore
Duei - middle child, male, Medicine skill, Assurance (medicine) skill feat, Herbalism Lore, Mining Lore
Louei - youngest child, female, Society skill, Multilingual skill feat (Goblin, Undercommon), Academia Lore, Scribing Lore

All at master level (6+Vortch's level)

Assurance is a poor choice for a hireling...

The hireling doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses, status bonuses, or fortune effects.

Assurance is a poor choice for a hireling...

rules wrote:

The hireling doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses, status bonuses, or fortune effects.

Hirelings can't use Assurance?

Robert Hetherington wrote:

Assurance is a poor choice for a hireling...

rules wrote:

The hireling doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses, status bonuses, or fortune effects.

Hirelings can't use Assurance?

Ooo... I missed that one!

It would seem they cannot.

Well, dammit. Started a thread for more conversation about it. And he can't use Battle Medicine either, so no skill feats are available.

Risky Surgery!

(Additional Lore is an option)

They can still use battle medicine, just not in combat.

Still plenty of use for healing that doesn't take 10 minutes and can stack with treat wounds

Also Forensic Acumen, or Inoculation.

Only first level feat I see is Battle Medicine. Ward Medic would be good, but that's second level.

Are you only looking in the Core Rule Book? All of the feats people are mentioning are 1st level feats that require trained in Medicine (mostly from the APG, I think).

Edit: Also, just to reiterate what someone said earlier, a Hireling is not limited to level 1 feats. The limiting factor on Ward Medic or Continual Recovery is that they require Expert in Medicine, and a Hireling is limited to taking feats that require Trained in Medicine (even if they are Expert by the time you take Professional Hireling).

Are you only looking in the Core Rule Book? All of the feats people are mentioning are 1st level feats that require trained in Medicine (mostly from the APG, I think).

Where are you looking? Thought you could only use the Core Rulebook for hirelings.

Other feats from the APG are being listed. I don't see anything in the hireling that says only CRB feats? Could you clarify what that's based on?

When you gain this boon, select one Hireling boon you possess. The selected ally adds a second Lore skill to the list of skill checks they can attempt. In addition, select one skill feat whose prerequisite is being trained in one of the hireling’s selected skills. The hireling gains the benefits of that skill feat when attempting skill checks

Nothing in there about CRB only.

On the other hand, if you only have the CRB, then you may not have access to other feats (in which case just skip taking professional hireling on that hireling.)

Or take additional lore.

Note, it doesn't *have* to be 1st level, it just has to have the prerequisite "Trained in X" where X is a skill the hireling has. That will almost always mean 1st level, however.

(There are 2 exceptions I can find. 1 is part of an optional subsystem not used in PFS, the other is from an AP and is of dubious use to a hireling, but entertaining.)

If you are Expert in a Skill, you are also Trained in that Skill.

Having a higher level of Proficiency is not a detriment.

If you are Expert in a Skill, you are also Trained in that Skill.

Having a higher level of Proficiency is not a detriment.

That’s not what I meant. What I meant is despite a hireling being expert before they can take Professional Hireling, they can’t take feats that require Expert.

Why not?

Why not?

Because "In addition, select one skill feat whose prerequisite is being trained in one of the hireling’s selected skills." is in the boon text.

Being expert doesn't mean you aren't trained, but "prerequisite: expert in X" is different than "prerequisite: trained in X."

"prerequisite: expert in X" is different than "prerequisite: trained in X."

Indeed.

If the prerequisite was "expert in X", and you were only trained, you could not select it.

But the prerequisite is "trained in X", and expert > trained.

If what you are saying was true, nobody with Proficiency greater than Trained could ever take feats that required being only Trained.

I still don’t know if you’re misunderstanding what we’re saying or if you are claiming that a hireling can take, for example, Continual Recovery. The prerequisite for Continual Recovery is “expert in Medicine.” It is not a skill feat whose prerequisite is trained in Medicine, so a Hireling can never take it.

A hireling that is Expert could take Battle Medicine (though with the added limitation that it can’t be used in Battle).

Continual Recovery is exactly one of the Feats I gave to my Medicine Hireling.

The prerequisite of being Trained in that Skill simply means your Medicine Hireling couldn't, for example, take an Athletics feat.

Given Jared’s interpretation above, I would not expect to be able to keep that feat forever.

If what you are saying was true, nobody with Proficiency greater than Trained could ever take feats that required being only Trained.

No. What I'm saying would only apply to anyone with the specific restriction that hirelings have written in. I don't see how you're extrapolating it to anything outside of hirelings.

Quote:

When you gain this boon, select one Hireling boon you possess. The selected ally adds a second Lore skill to the list of skill checks they can attempt. In addition, select one skill feat whose prerequisite is being trained in one of the hireling’s selected skills. The hireling gains the benefits of that skill feat when attempting skill checks

Nothing in there about CRB only.

On the other hand, if you only have the CRB, then you may not have access to other feats (in which case just skip taking professional hireling on that hireling.)

Or take additional lore.

Huh. Don't know where I got the impression it was Core Rulebook only. Regardless, I gave him Battle Medicine to be able to stack Treat Wounds healing in parties with other healers.

Given Jared’s interpretation above, I would not expect to be able to keep that feat forever.

You have a good point. This wouldn't be the first time he nerfed Hirelings >.>

But he'd still have to explain away this:

Each time you gain a general feat, you can select any feat with the general trait whose prerequisites you satisfy.

General feats also include a subcategory of skill feats, which expand on what you can accomplish via skills.

And, considering that character is 7th level now, and no other GM or player has ever mentioned this interpretation before (a Continual Recovery Hireling is especially popular, IME), I'm certainly not the only person running Hirelings this way.

The Hireling isn’t a character. Nothing in the CRB about characters selecting feats has anything to do with picking a feat that the boon tells you to pick. Only the language in the boon matters for that, so there’s no need to explain away language in the CRB.

Given that it’s a retiring boon, it might be unlikely that it gets clarified in the guide, but I’d expect there might be some clarification added to the online version, and my assumption is that Jared has some understanding of what was meant by that original phrasing.

I will note *I* didn't write that language. That language is from Linda, so take it up with her if you don't like it.

(That also means, if you want a clarification, you need to talk to Linda or Tonya. If they give me an answer, I will pass it along. My personal understanding is that it means you can only take feats that have the "trained in" language. But I am not posting as Guide Team, because I haven't asked.)

Given that it’s a retiring boon, it might be unlikely that it gets clarified in the guide, but I’d expect there might be some clarification added to the online version, and my assumption is that Jared has some understanding of what was meant by that original phrasing.

Hirelings are not retired. The Fame versions are going away but you can stll buy them with ACP.

Ferious Thune wrote:

Given that it’s a retiring boon, it might be unlikely that it gets clarified in the guide, but I’d expect there might be some clarification added to the online version, and my assumption is that Jared has some understanding of what was meant by that original phrasing.

Hirelings are not retired. The Fame versions are going away but you can stll buy them with ACP.

Also, all of the retiring fame boons got a bit of clarification, just because we expect them to still be around for a while, since a lot of PCs already purchased them.

Sadly, it looks like I may not get my Verdant Wheel PC up to 90 rep in time to buy my preserve... Sigh. (I have the fame for it, just not the rep.)

Ferious Thune wrote:

Given that it’s a retiring boon, it might be unlikely that it gets clarified in the guide, but I’d expect there might be some clarification added to the online version, and my assumption is that Jared has some understanding of what was meant by that original phrasing.

Hirelings are not retired. The Fame versions are going away but you can stll buy them with ACP.

I said there might be clarification to the online version (as opposed to the one in the guide). I’m aware that one will still exist.

Edit: Part of the issue is around terminology, which has gotten extremely confusing with all of the different categories. I called it the online version, because Professional Hireling is not an Achievement Point Boon. It’s a free boon based on your reputation. I didn’t have “Game Reward Boons” off the top of my head, but that’s the category it’s under.

Hireling, the base boon, is an Achievement Point Boon, but that’s not the one that needs clarification in this instance.