Eye of Dread

If the final PF2 AP was something where the stakes were "So-and-So will end all life on Golarion" we would know the outcome by the fact that Pathfinder 2nd edition exists (we also kind of know the outcome by the fact that Starfinder exits and Golarion doesn't have spaceships yet, so it's safe.)

Plus just knowing how serialized storytelling works, you just don't, in the same storym introduce a baddie who has only been talked about previously and immediately permanently defeat that baddie, unless you want said baddie to come across like a chump.

Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

I mean, he was imprisoned there for a really long time. I know if I'd been locked in a tower for a few hundred years I wouldn't be particularly eager to go hang out in its shadow anytime soon.

My read of that was just James saying that Tar-Baphon is indeed killable, not that he'd be killed at the end of Tyrant's Grasp.

I read that and say "yeah, that makes sense, if you play 'Int 36' as 'you always lose because they're smarter than you', then there's no point in playing the game".

Which is basically what he said:

I'm just saying that if a GM plays a character in a way that removes player agency entirely from the game, that's frustrating. A great old one can't be killed, but it can certainly be defeated.

I can't help but feel the outrage must be put on a bit by people who don't want to like anything PF2 related. I mean coming into a post about changes to the setting complaining about spoilers is like going to a reddit thread titled "The future of the MCU now we know Endgame's events" and complaining about Endgame spoilers.

As for making canon choices that may conflict with home canon. That is inevitable. And I rather the make A choice over trying to keep things open with discussions on all the possible outcomes. Vamp 5e and Mage 20 did that and instead of my new players being able to read the book and know how things stand they just came out confused.

Sorry got to agree with others here. This post is not well timed, to spoil the current AP in this fashion is in poor taste. You can play it down, act like people are having nerd rage or belittle their feelings on the matter all you want, but that still doesn’t excuse the fact that Paizo shouldn’t have done it.

It’s like that guy that walks out of the blockbuster movie telling everyone what happened. Yeah you may have known it was going to happen but it still affects your enjoyment of the film. I hope my players don’t read this blog.

On a different note. When do the minis previews start again?

Linkified for your convenience.

{. . .}

Reckless wrote:

I'm frankly more bothered by New Thassilon and it's assumption that players just roll over for Sorshen's schemes.

Sorshen is basically your most powerful ally in that AP, CN in alignment, and owes you big by the end of it (meaning that her ruling a country is super good for you on both a personal and professional level). Also a 20th level/Mythic Tier 10 character (meaning that the PCs collectively are likely to lose a straight fight with her).

{. . .}

Well, admittedly Sorshen IS canonically specialized in getting people to roll over for her . . . .

Amaranthine Witch wrote:

Am I the only one that dislikes nearly all of this?

I mean, obviously not, but that’s to be expected. Change is always a mixed bag.

Shouldn't that be: Change is always a mixed Gorbacz?

I'll show myself out now. Quietly.

Hmm does seem that lastwall must get really wreaked in the last two books of the Ap then.

Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

Even Tar-Baphon doesn't want Ustalav. That place is a mess. A lich has to have some standards after all.

I am curious about how much of a setback he has at the end of the AP. I mean, we know he's not destroyed entirely, and doesn't succeed in becoming a god. But what's keeping him from just going and making another attempt to get to Absalom? Is he currently expanding territory? Is he maybe confined to his island?

Nice to see the lore marching forward.

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

Even Tar-Baphon doesn't want Ustalav. That place is a mess. A lich has to have some standards after all.

I am curious about how much of a setback he has at the end of the AP. I mean, we know he's not destroyed entirely, and doesn't succeed in becoming a god. But what's keeping him from just going and making another attempt to get to Absalom? Is he currently expanding territory? Is he maybe confined to his island?

My guess? He is personally very powerful, but that doesn't mean he has infinite resources. No doubt his attempt on Absalom involves more than just him walking alone through the city; his defeat there probably costs him a bunch of high level minions and maybe even an army.

If it didn't work with all that help, he's not likely to think it'll work without.

Hmm does seem that lastwall must get really wreaked in the last two books of the Ap then.

That happens in

My guess based on first three books on what happens to Tar-Babhon?

I mean, there's a whole graveyard of siege engines in the Cairnlands and another of sunken ships near the port - Absalom is a notoriously tough nut to crack... Tar-Baphon could be the one to do it, but it wouldn't be a trivial enterprise for him either, I believe.

One thing about liches is that they are seldom in a hurry. What happens in the latest AP is probably the first plan Tar-Baphon concocted during his imprisonment. One imagines he has others and is willing to play the long game.

Like in particular he's not going to go "All In" right after escaping his imprisonment and risk permanent destruction, even if it's a very good plan that's spoiled largely by a series of flukes.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm sort of concerned that now 100% of the spooky stuff in Ustalav is going to have to revolve around their lich neighbor, when there's plenty of unrelated spooky stuff all over (there's vampires in the sewers and werewolves in the forest!) Like something like Strange Aeons should be allowed to happen without intersecting with Tar-Baphon.

He certainly will loom large, this was his old stomping ground after all. But I suspect Ustalav will remain the land of gothic horror in all of it's forms. The Gravelands will take a bit of the undead focus from it, but I think it'll be a different style. With the Gravelands as the land of the Zombie Apocalypse, instead of general horror. I figure that's why Lastwall was destroyed instead of Ustalav. It preserves Ustalav for the other horror stories.

Like today's web fiction!

Rysky wrote:

Marco Massoudi wrote:

When i wrote that if i were a Lich with an int score of 36 no one would ever find my phylactery, James Jacobs answered that if there would be no way to find T-B's phylactery there wouldn't be any point in making this AP.

I disagreed and said the pcs could just defeat him.
He heavily implied that that wasn't the case and that the AP would finish him once and for all.

Source?

Here and following. (Note that, since the bug in the Product Discussion threads hasn't been fixed yet, the link won't take you to the correct post; it's #37.)

I don't get the "heavy implication" Marco did from James's responses, however, just, as Cori Marie said, that James wasn't going to confirm or deny the insistence that the PCs couldn't actually kill Tar-Barphon in the AP.

(Marco, you should feel vindicated: you were absolutely right in your original prediction.)

Yup, Marco called it - and just wait until you read Book 5 of Tyrants Grasp...we learn pretty much what's in store, and the endgame goal, for the PC's.

And without a certain sidebar kicking into play via GM fiat, frankly, the endgame kinda sucks. Hoping, but not optimistic, about how Book 6 plays out. Seems more of a "hey, lets set Golarion up for 2E, finale" rather than ending the 1E Adventure Paths on a high note.

I mean, I would have liked Hell's Rebels to resolve in the complete dissolution of Cheliax (which it could have, very easily), but they weren't going to do that either.

What I'm dying to hear about is Numeria.

Hey Eye of Dread fans! For tonight's Arcane Mark, we're interviewing Eye of Dread section author (and Tyrant's Grasp and Extinction Curse AP developer) Ron Lundeen! Check it out in about 90 minutes. (7 PM PDT)

Hey Mark, will that be available VOD? I really want to watch it, but already have plans at 7 :'(

Twitch will keep it up for a few weeks, same link, then click videos!

Doktor Weasel wrote:

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

Even Tar-Baphon doesn't want Ustalav. That place is a mess. A lich has to have some standards after all.

I am curious about how much of a setback he has at the end of the AP. I mean, we know he's not destroyed entirely, and doesn't succeed in becoming a god. But what's keeping him from just going and making another attempt to get to Absalom? Is he currently expanding territory? Is he maybe confined to his island?

My guess? He is personally very powerful, but that doesn't mean he has infinite resources. No doubt his attempt on Absalom involves more than just him walking alone through the city; his defeat there probably costs him a bunch of high level minions and maybe even an army.

If it didn't work with all that help, he's not likely to think it'll work without.

If he just needs to get to the Starstone, then actually walking alone through the city might very well be the best way to go. He can easily magic up some disguise for himself to look like a normal person, then once he gets to the temple, go do his thing. I haven't read the AP (mostly skimmed part 1) so probably his plan is more complex than just go take the test of the Starstone. But just walking in disguised would get a lot less resistance than marching a huge army of the undead across the continent.

MaxAstro wrote:

Doktor Weasel wrote:

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

Even Tar-Baphon doesn't want Ustalav. That place is a mess. A lich has to have some standards after all.

I am curious about how much of a setback he has at the end of the AP. I mean, we know he's not destroyed entirely, and doesn't succeed in becoming a god. But what's keeping him from just going and making another attempt to get to Absalom? Is he currently expanding territory? Is he maybe confined to his island?

My guess? He is personally very powerful, but that doesn't mean he has infinite resources. No doubt his attempt on Absalom involves more than just him walking alone through the city; his defeat there probably costs him a bunch of high level minions and maybe even an army.

If it didn't work with all that help, he's not likely to think it'll work without.

If he just needs to get to the Starstone, then actually walking alone through the city might very well be the best way to go. He can easily magic up some disguise for himself to look like a normal person, then once he gets to the temple, go do his thing. I haven't read the AP (mostly skimmed part 1) so probably his plan is more complex than just go take the test of the Starstone. But just walking in disguised would get a lot less resistance than marching a huge army of the undead across the continent.

I imagine his plan involves actually taking the Starstone and THEN ascending. He can the control access to godhood.

I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

If he just needs to get to the Starstone, then actually walking alone through the city might very well be the best way to go. He can easily magic up some disguise for himself to look like a normal person, then once he gets to the temple, go do his thing. I haven't read the AP (mostly skimmed part 1) so probably his plan is more complex than just go take the test of the Starstone. But just walking in disguised would get a lot less resistance than marching a huge army of the undead across the continent.

I do not think he is the kind of guy to do that. Hiding himself or showing up and showing why he is the big bad? I would think the second option would be more likley^^

^Well, he would have an example to follow: Norgorber.

I guess they all wrote Very Angry Letters to Marvel once it was blidningly obvious that most of Thanos' decimation from Infinity War will be undone in Endgame.

Wait. Wut? What I thought they would spinelessly do they spinelessly did? Oh noes mean bag of meanness, you totes spoil'd what I already thought. Now I need to rageflip a tablequit somewhere. Or something.

Seriously, thanks tho'. Now I know I can watch it and be happy I was right about how anticlimactic it would be.

Careful: spoilers ahead:

Oh well. Nerds. Making them happy is a thankless task.

And impossible.

Gorbacz wrote:

I guess they all wrote Very Angry Letters to Marvel once it was blidningly obvious that most of Thanos' decimation from Infinity War will be undone in Endgame.

Wait. Wut? What I thought they would spinelessly do they spinelessly did? Oh noes mean bag of meanness, you totes spoil'd what I already thought.

Yeah, they did it a couple decades ago in the comics.

I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

The idea that Aroden explicitly designed the test to exclude TB isn't something I considered, but I really like the idea.

I agree that TB probably sees the test as beneath him. "I'm not taking some 'test' to prove my worth. Literally surviving being smote by a GOD is test enough. I am TAR-BAPHON AND I TAKE WHAT I WANT!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA." (villain monologue)

CorvusMask wrote:

I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

The idea that Aroden explicitly designed the test to exclude TB isn't something I considered, but I really like the idea.

I agree that TB probably sees the test as beneath him. "I'm not taking some 'test' to prove my worth. Literally surviving being smote by a GOD is test enough. I am TAR-BAPHON AND I TAKE WHAT I WANT!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA." (villain monologue)

I'm sad Tar-Baphon doesn't have a mustache because that'd be a perfect moment for twirling it.

j b 200 wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

The idea that Aroden explicitly designed the test to exclude TB isn't something I considered, but I really like the idea.

I agree that TB probably sees the test as beneath him. "I'm not taking some 'test' to prove my worth. Literally surviving being smote by a GOD is test enough. I am TAR-BAPHON AND I TAKE WHAT I WANT!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA." (villain monologue)

I'm sad Tar-Baphon doesn't have a mustache because that'd be a perfect moment for twirling it.

*casts presidigitation to summon unrealistic moustache. twirls it* You’re welcome.

I'm excited for the blog post that tells us what happened with Irrisen!

Gorbacz wrote:

I guess they all wrote Very Angry Letters to Marvel once it was blidningly obvious that most of Thanos' decimation from Infinity War will be undone in Endgame.

Wait. Wut? What I thought they would spinelessly do they spinelessly did? Oh noes mean bag of meanness, you totes spoil'd what I already thought. Now I need to rageflip a tablequit somewhere. Or something.

I think you may be surprised by how that movie actually goes. The deaths are mostly undone, yes, but there's a fair amount of meaningful and lasting consequences from Infinity War going forward.

Seriously, thanks tho'. Now I know I can watch it and be happy I was right about how anticlimactic it would be.

Anticlimactic is not how I'd describe Endgame.

The other thing to keep in mind about Ironfang Invasion is the AP is all about making allies. There are so many things you can fight but can instead befriend. Generally, the Legion itself seems immune to these charms, but there are pretty significant factors making it possible from the top down.

It's not the spoilers that I mind, but having Tar Baphon essentially free on the Isle of Dread after the AP does not seem like a psychologically rewarding payoff. You "defeat him" much in the same manner of a Saturday morning cartoon where the villain gets away after you thwart their plans and plots their revenge for later.

The first page of the player's guide to the AP says:

Theme: Survival Horror
The overall theme of Tyrant’s Grasp is survival horror. The player characters will often find themselves in desperate circumstances with limited resources, particularly during the first few adventures. Terrible tragedies are destined to occur as the events of Tyrant’s Grasp unfold; often, your objective isn’t to prevent these disasters, but to survive them and to display heroism and resourcefulness in their wake. Circumstances will compel the player characters to leave Roslar’s Coffer much sooner than you might expect, so characters prepared to travel across Lastwall and beyond are the best fit for this Adventure Path.

Players are pretty much told to expect the worst from the outset. If that's not satisfying to your group, survival horror isn't your jam and you should play a different AP. I had this issue with my players in Carrion Crown and we abandoned it.

I'm sad Tar-Baphon doesn't have a mustache because that'd be a perfect moment for twirling it.

Regenerating his nose is clearly just Step One in Tar-Baphon's plan to grow an evil mustache.

It would would be really impossible to do both "survival horror" and "you folks are powerful enough to stand toe to toe with someone who killed Arazni (who has 8 mythic tiers *now* and is also less powerful than before she died)" in the same story.

Like WotR put the PCs in some of the most inhospitable conditions imaginable, and it was still a bit of a romp because mythic is that powerful.

CorvusMask wrote:

I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

The idea that Aroden explicitly designed the test to exclude TB isn't something I considered, but I really like the idea.

I agree that TB probably sees the test as beneath him. "I'm not taking some 'test' to prove my worth. Literally surviving being smote by a GOD is test enough. I am TAR-BAPHON AND I TAKE WHAT I WANT!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA." (villain monologue)

Tar-Baphon just wants to make his dad, Skeletor, proud of him.

What I'm dying to hear about is Numeria.

** spoiler omitted **

So am I. As peer the Broken Lands preview, the church of Casandalee seems to be taking the position of the League in helping the Black Sovereign ruling the nation (it wasn't confirmed, but heavily implied).

Given how technology has spread in Numeria, the goddess followers seems as the most fit organization to handle the situation.

I thought Azaersi hates the civilized races very much. She wants to avenge her brethren by killing and enslaving all humans, elves, dwarves, et cetera.

Considering that it is thoroughly industrial and mercantile, Oprak conquering its neighbors would be a progressive outcome. Nirmathas is utterly backwards, and Molthune and Nidal have so far been unable to overcome the despotic bureaucracies (military and theocratic respectively) that stand as fetters on their development.

Aenigma wrote:

I thought Azaersi hates the civilized races very much. She wants to avenge her brethren by killing and enslaving all humans, elves, dwarves, et cetera.

Considering that it is thoroughly industrial and mercantile, Oprak conquering its neighbors would be a progressive outcome. Nirmathas is utterly backwards, and Molthune and Nidal have so far been unable to overcome the despotic bureaucracies (military and theocratic respectively) that stand as fetters on their development.

Progressive in what sense? I don't think conquering people minding their own business is very progressive by most definitions. Nor would I consider Nirmathas 'backwards' in most meaningful senses of the term.

Progressive in what sense? I don't think conquering people minding their own business is very progressive by most definitions. Nor would I consider Nirmathas 'backwards' in most meaningful senses of the term.

Progressive in the sense of developing the productive capacities of the land and its people, and of unleashing the people's cultural and intellectual genius.

The fostering of big industry on the hobgoblin model is progressive in the former sense, and while its use of unfree labor sets back the latter for a time - potentially a long time - it also creates the conditions for its full flowering later. Namely, labor will tend to emancipate itself over time, first from literal and then from figurative bondage.

Oprak is also a competitor that cannot be kept from any market by tariff, because it does not rely on fixed ports of entry to bring its goods to market. Competition with it will therefore necessarily spur technological and scientific development in its competitors' productive sectors, if their markets are not conquered outright.

Progressive in the sense of developing the productive capacities of the land and its people, and of unleashing the people's cultural and intellectual genius.

The fostering of big industry on the hobgoblin model is progressive in the former sense, and while its use of unfree labor sets back the latter for a time - potentially a long time - it also creates the conditions for its full flowering later. Namely, labor will tend to emancipate itself over time, first from literal and then from figurative bondage.

Okay, we're dealing with a profound difference in world view and philosophy here. I'm just gonna note that I strongly disagree, especially with the last bit. Economic and technological progress in no way inherently leads to 'labor emancipating itself'.

Oprak is also a competitor that cannot be kept from any market by tariff, because it does not rely on fixed ports of entry to bring its goods to market. Competition with it will therefore necessarily spur technological and scientific development in its competitors' productive sectors, if their markets are not conquered outright.

Here, I agree. Oprak as an economic powerhouse will have a variety of interesting and useful effects on the economy of at least the Inner Sea Region and quite possibly places much further afield.

I just strongly disagree that forcible conquest by an authoritarian regime, even a technologically or economically more advanced one (and we actually have no evidence of the former), is usually gonna result in good things for anyone. It usually does not.

I mean, if the recent history of Golarion is any indication, very little progress actually occurs without player characters getting involved.

Like Galt hasn't gotten their act together and won't until we put an AP there. Taldor had been in decline for nearly a thousand years before the PCs got involved. In addition to Eutropia, the PCs also put people on the (metaphorical) thrones in Irrisen, the Shackles, Ravounel, Minkai, Numeria, and I'm probably missing a few. Slavery was alive and well in cosmopolitan Absalom for thousands of years before our PFS friends put a stop to it.

I mean, if the recent history of Golarion is any indication, very little progress actually occurs without player characters getting involved.

This is empirically true. However, it is not a useful observation.

Slavery was alive and well in cosmopolitan Absalom for thousands of years before our PFS friends put a stop to it.

Slavery was in fact illegal up until 4635, which is less than 100 years before the start date of PF2. That doesn't mean it wasn't practiced, but you could get in trouble for it.

Its reinstatement is presented as part of the general social retrogression that swept the Inner Sea in the 4630s, which also included the securing of House Thrune's rule in Cheliax.

...I feel like I have serious reservations about the opinions of anyone who feels the need to use the term "unfree labor".

Or, for that matter, would argue that conquering another country would be 'for their own good' in some way.

...I feel like I have serious reservations about the opinions of anyone who feels the need to use the term "unfree labor".

Or, for that matter, would argue that conquering another country would be 'for their own good' in some way.

Would you prefer the term "forced labor?" That is the term used by the ILO to mean the same thing, and for good reason - the category of abridgements on the freedom of labor is broader than "slavery."

Would you prefer the term "forced labor?"

I would actually, yes.

-----

Wild tangent: Am I the only person both confused and annoyed by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotations even when the punctuation is not part of the quotation? It can't just be me, right? Other people find that confusing also?

Wild tangent: Am I the only person both confused and annoyed by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotations even when the punctuation is not part of the quotation? It can't just be me, right? Other people find that confusing also?

I'm not usually confused, but it's deeply annoying, yes. I try to avoid doing it as much as possible.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Would you prefer the term "forced labor?"

I would actually, yes.

-----

Wild tangent: Am I the only person both confused and annoyed by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotations even when the punctuation is not part of the quotation? It can't just be me, right? Other people find that confusing also?

It's one of the many variations between American and British English.

MaxAstro wrote:

Wild tangent: Am I the only person both confused and annoyed by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotations even when the punctuation is not part of the quotation? It can't just be me, right? Other people find that confusing also?

I'm not usually confused, but it's deeply annoying, yes. I try to avoid doing it as much as possible.

I don't like it either, but even worse is getting caught between people who are absolutely dead-set on opposite ideas about this.

The first page of the player's guide to the AP says:

Theme: Survival Horror
The overall theme of Tyrant’s Grasp is survival horror. The player characters will often find themselves in desperate circumstances with limited resources, particularly during the first few adventures. Terrible tragedies are destined to occur as the events of Tyrant’s Grasp unfold; often, your objective isn’t to prevent these disasters, but to survive them and to display heroism and resourcefulness in their wake. Circumstances will compel the player characters to leave Roslar’s Coffer much sooner than you might expect, so characters prepared to travel across Lastwall and beyond are the best fit for this Adventure Path.

Players are pretty much told to expect the worst from the outset. If that's not satisfying to your group, survival horror isn't your jam and you should play a different AP. I had this issue with my players in Carrion Crown and we abandoned it.

Sure, but this also sounds like this horror desperation theme is frontloaded more towards the beginning. Tragic disasters and such will occur later, but heroism is still a prevalent aspect. I don't necessarily think that an AP ending with confronting on a lich attacking Rome-Jerusalem to ascend to godhood would fall within the expectations of horror survival. That IMHO leans more heavily into Paizo's superheroic sort of feel.

I can't help but feel the outrage must be put on a bit by people who don't want to like anything PF2 related. I mean coming into a post about changes to the setting complaining about spoilers is like going to a reddit thread titled "The future of the MCU now we know Endgame's events" and complaining about Endgame spoilers.

I wish that you would have helped but feeling that since I am a person who is otherwise thrilled about many things that are PF2 related. But I suppose it's easier for you to badmouth others than attempt a modicum of understanding.