Bestiary 4 Preview #1

I approve.

-Kcinlive

Eh, first creature up and I don't run mythic rules so it's useless without a conversion or non-mythic stats.

Does not bode well for my pre-order.

:O

And I just rolled up a character based on Beowulf. Epic, er, mythic

Eh, first creature up and I don't run mythic rules so it's useless without a conversion or non-mythic stats.

Does not bode well for my pre-order.

From reading the entry, it's seems simple to enough to just ignore the mythic related portions; Namely,

It looks like every time the Bestiary 4 uses mythic rules, it specifically references so. The only thing someone would really have to consider is how then to modify the CR after losing mythic abilities.

I want to gruesomely dismember some PCs!

Eh, first creature up and I don't run mythic rules so it's useless without a conversion or non-mythic stats.

Does not bode well for my pre-order.

It looks like all you need to run him is in the stat block. It says the # of mythic power uses per day (7), and that he can use mythic power to do a brutal surge, which adds to his surge value (+1d10) to attack and damage.

I don't own Mythic Adventures yet, but I could use this creature as-is (if I had a party that could handle CR 19).

It does look like he has a number of feats with the M superscript, which I assume means they're Mythic versions of those feats, but I'd just run them as the regular versions of those feats.

I assume blood rage, display of strength, and unstoppable are all in the Universal Monster Rules.

Also, I love the fact that he has regeneration against all but unarmed and natural weapons, but he also has DR 10/epic. So you need epic unarmed attacks to overcome DR and negate regeneration? That's a tough hombre.

Why does Grendel use 3.5 rules for its natural attacks? Its bite is a secondary attack (-5 to hit, 1/2 Strength to damage). Is it this way in the actual book?

Eh, first creature up and I don't run mythic rules so it's useless without a conversion or non-mythic stats.

Does not bode well for my pre-order.

If you get it and don't like it, I'll take your copy for you :)

Holy craaaap.

Freaking awesome.

Nifty! Looks like I have a Christmas present to get!

Stat block doesn't have descriptions for these:

Stat block doesn't have descriptions for these:

blood rage

display of strength

Probably abilities defined in the MA rules.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Eh, first creature up and I don't run mythic rules so it's useless without a conversion or non-mythic stats.

Does not bode well for my pre-order.

If you get it and don't like it, I'll take your copy for you :)

Naw, it would make more sense for me to just cancel my pre-order.

I wonder when they're going to (if at all) release a list of creatures contained inside and how many are going to be mythic/useless.

The AC (including flat-footed) looks like it was calculated incorrectly.

Will there be any kind of conversion guide for un-mythicing monsters?

Eh, first creature up and I don't run mythic rules so it's useless without a conversion or non-mythic stats.

Does not bode well for my pre-order.

Technically, Grendel is second creature up?

The AC (including flat-footed) looks like it was calculated incorrectly.

Will there be any kind of conversion guide for un-mythicing monsters?

Didn't you read all the other posts in this thread?

All you have to do is:
- Ignore the mythic related portions (re: all of its abilities - brutal surge, gruesome dismemberment, mythic power (7/day, surge +1d10)). And of course find/create some replacement powers.
- Ignore mythic feats (recalculate stats)
- Recalculate the CR after losing Mythic abilities.

See, not so hard....

Eh, first creature up and I don't run mythic rules so it's useless without a conversion or non-mythic stats.

Does not bode well for my pre-order.

Mythic subtype is explained in the appendix.

So all of the above mythic rules needed to run this monster are actually presented in Bestiary 4.

True, Mythic Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Power Attack, Skill Focus aren't described in Bestiary 4, but the introduction and summary of the stat block format in the book says: A feat with a superscript “M” is a mythic feat and has a greater effect (see Chapter 2 of Mythic Adventures). If you are not using that book, refer to the normal version of the feat. So if you're not using the mythic rules, and don't even want to look up the description of the mythic feats (free on the PRD), you can use them as the normal versions of those feats.

We went out of our way to make sure that this book includes all the info you need to run the mythic monsters in this book (or tells you "you can run it without that with no problems" in the case of the mythic feats) exactly as they are printed, without recalculating anything.

Stat block doesn't have descriptions for these:

blood rage

Blood rage is in the UMR already, as of Bestiary 2.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Eh, first creature up and I don't run mythic rules so it's useless without a conversion or non-mythic stats.

Does not bode well for my pre-order.

Technically, Grendel is second creature up?

My response was based off of "Bestiary 4 Preview #1" heading of this thread, hence my "first creature up".

Also the Al-miraj is just an Open Content, Tomb of Horrors rehash and not really a new creature - just a Paizo reimagining of Necro/FGG original version (based off of the original Fiend Folio). Nothing wrong with that - but it's not new to D&D or even PF.

We went out of our way to make sure that this book includes all the info you need to run the mythic monsters in this book (or tells you "you can run it without that with no problems" in the case of the mythic feats) exactly as they are printed, without recalculating anything.

So the non-mythic version of this creature has SQ/SA - Blood Rage, Unstoppable, Ferocity and Display of Strength as standard (non-mythic) creature abilities? Since none have a mythic activation listed?

Just trying to figure out what powers Grendel would have sans mythic, since the only things tagged as Mythic are the Feats or SAs that list a mythic power use.

I don't understand why you have to strip away its mythic abilities just because you're not using Mythic Adventures. If Grendel had an ability called "incredible fury" that otherwise acted exactly like the mythic power and surge abilities, and provided a pool of "fury points" that it could expend for other things (much like how some feats or class abilities allow you to expend uses of channel energy or lay on hands), why does it matter what you call it?

Awesome art.

it is super cool to have a stat block for Grendel and it is fitting for it to be mythic. I get people that don't want to run mythic but it does seem easy to file the serial numbers off and run it without mythic. Now I am wondering how to stat up Grendel mother.

If Grendel is a CR 19, what level must Beowulf have been to single-handedly defeat him? Haha.

I don't understand why you have to strip away its mythic abilities just because you're not using Mythic Adventures. If Grendel had an ability called "incredible fury" that otherwise acted exactly like the mythic power and surge abilities, and provided a pool of "fury points" that it could expend for other things (much like how some feats or class abilities allow you to expend uses of channel energy or lay on hands), why does it matter what you call it?

So you're saying that it's mythic abilities have no impact whatsoever on it's CR of 19? Just run them as is with no balance issues/CR issues?

Why have it tagged at MR 7 in addition to CR 19 if those extra abilities are non-impacating to its base CR of 19?

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I don't understand why you have to strip away its mythic abilities just because you're not using Mythic Adventures. If Grendel had an ability called "incredible fury" that otherwise acted exactly like the mythic power and surge abilities, and provided a pool of "fury points" that it could expend for other things (much like how some feats or class abilities allow you to expend uses of channel energy or lay on hands), why does it matter what you call it?

So you're saying that it's mythic abilities have no impact whatsoever on it's CR of 19? Just run them as is with no balance issues/CR issues?

Why have it tagged at MR 7 in addition to CR 19 if those extra abilities are non-impacating to its base CR of 19?

While Beta had MR in addition to CR (so if it used Beta notation Grendel would have effective CR of 26) I think that it was dropped due to feedback and now CR listed includes CR increase for mythic abilities. MR is listed next to CR for purpose of abilities interacting with mythic rank, like abilities that only act on creatures with lower or equal rank.

Drejk is correct: Grendel is CR 19. His rank is listed just for the purpose of effects relating to rank or tier, but all of his abilities (mythic and otherwise) are already accounted for in his CR 19. Stripping away the abilities and modifiers he gets from his 7 mythic ranks would make his CR something less than 19.

A creature with only one an arm cannot perform actions requiring two arms or two hands

Grammer Nazi alert! You need to get rid of the word "an" in the above line.

Grrr... I was trying to resist the pull on my wallet. This is just awesomely unfair...

Levels in Barbarian and a few more mythic ranks for his mother?

Drejk is correct: Grendel is CR 19. His rank is listed just for the purpose of effects relating to rank or tier, but all of his abilities (mythic and otherwise) are already accounted for in his CR 19. Stripping away the abilities and modifiers he gets from his 7 mythic ranks would make his CR something less than 19.

Ah, ok - so that was the source of my confusion.

Ok - sounds good.

If all the mythic abilities are available online and this is calculated into its CR as a consideration then it isn't as much of an issue.

If all the mythic abilities are available online and this is calculated into its CR as a consideration then it isn't as much of an issue.

That was exactly our intent: we want people who aren't using the mythic book to still be able to use B4 monsters in a non-mythic campaign.

If Grendel is a CR 19, what level must Beowulf have been to single-handedly defeat him? Haha.

Ha! He'll have to deal with Grendel "single-handedly" if he isn't mythic lol :))

I like how the legend informs the monsters ability (i.e. being vulnerable to unarmed attacks). Always a pet peeve when someone takes a monster from mythology/lit/folklore, than makes up random abilities for it.

Although it really should have the ability to beat people with their own severed limbs :P

I like how the legend informs the monsters ability (i.e. being vulnerable to unarmed attacks). Always a pet peeve when someone takes a monster from mythology/lit/folklore, than makes up random abilities for it.

Although it really should have the ability to beat people with their own severed limbs :P

Grendel should totally have the bonus feat weapon proficiency: severed limbs

I have Bestiary 4 on pre-order right now and this preview puts me on the fence about it... I hope this post doesn't come off as advesarial, but I want to lay out my concerns incase I'm misunderstanding certain thing that can be clarified. Also, I don't expect everyone to share my thoughts/concerns, but I wanted to express them, and this seemed the appropriate place. (Disclaimer: I love Pathfinder and think Paizo has done a great job in general.)

Reasons:
• I'm firmly against mythic adventures, as I feel the Pathfinder system is becoming too large for me (as a DM) to manage already. (Example: In 3.5e did most DMs allow every single book created?)
• I have concerns about the balance of the game as it bloats up and the level of effort going into errata and FAQs. (Example: Wierd Words - was 1 round of performance supposed to allow 10 ranged touch attacks against a single monster, each of which deals 1d8 + Charisma modifier damage, and then that single creature has to make 10 fortitude saving throws...? Ultimate Magic has been out for a long time, how has this fallen through the cracks this long? I can't be the only DM that gets sick of arguments/disagreements with that ONE player when he's inevitably the one who finds these poorly worded rules and says "but it's RAW"...)
• After an encounter, my players will inevitably look up the stats of the monsters on the prd. When they see that the DM is using mythic monsters against them, some of them will feel like they should get to have mythic player characters.
• It feels somewhat unfair to use mythic rules against players without giving them access to them as well.
• I was hoping to add a few more monsters to my repertoire for creating fun encounters, but doing so at the risk of igniting problems with my players is probably not worth it.

Questions:
• What percentage of the monster in Bestiary 4 will have mythic tiers?
• Assuming one wanted to, and using the Grendal as an example, how would you remove all of it's mythic tiers and powers? What would the resulting CR be?

I agree that the CR/MR looks a little confusing; when I first saw it, I thought it meant CR + MR, much the way the classes stack when separated by a slash in NPC stat blocks (ranger 4/fighter 6, for example).

Perhaps if the stat block was CR (MR), with MR in parentheses to distinguish it from the way classes are presented, it would be less confusing.

In any event, this looks awesome, and even if one were to choose to strip the mythic abilities (which, as Sean notes, isn't really needed), I'd still leave him the dismemberment ability.

(BTW, with those avatars, for a second I thought Auxmalous and Drejk were the same person, talking/posting to himself. LOL!)

Although it really should have the ability to beat people with their own severed limbs :P

I think dismembered liimbs count as improvised weapons. :)

(BTW, with those avatars, for a second I thought Auxmalous and Drejk were the same person, talking/posting to himself. LOL!)

Not the same person - just the same distinguished taste in avatars. Also, every once in a while he will chime in on a thread and correct me.

I fully admit to reflex/rage posting when I saw this. Assuming that I would have to dissect the Mythic powers out of its stats to make it playable made me...ANGRY.

But I have since calmed down after being corrected.

Auxmaulous wrote:

If all the mythic abilities are available online and this is calculated into its CR as a consideration then it isn't as much of an issue.

That was exactly our intent: we want people who aren't using the mythic book to still be able to use B4 monsters in a non-mythic campaign.

Which was an excellent way to do it. I haven't decided whether Im going to use Mythic or not, but I sure as heck want more monsters whether or not they're Mythic.

The rough guidelines for all of you Mythic-phobes out there is 1 Tier = 0.5 CR. A CR 19 monster with 7 MT is roughly a CR 16 monster without its Mythic tiers. YMMV, though, so you might call it 15 or 17 if you'd prefer.

I like how the legend informs the monsters ability (i.e. being vulnerable to unarmed attacks). Always a pet peeve when someone takes a monster from mythology/lit/folklore, than makes up random abilities for it.

Although it really should have the ability to beat people with their own severed limbs :P

Grendel doesn't use any weapons. :p

I have Bestiary 4 on pre-order right now and this preview puts me on the fence about it... I hope this post doesn't come off as advesarial, but I want to lay out my concerns incase I'm misunderstanding certain thing that can be clarified. Also, I don't expect everyone to share my thoughts/concerns, but I wanted to express them, and this seemed the appropriate place. (Disclaimer: I love Pathfinder and think Paizo has done a great job in general.)

Reason:
• After an encounter, my players will inevitably look up the stats of the monsters on the prd. When they see that the DM is using mythic monsters against them, some of them will feel like they should get to have mythic player characters.

1) Tell your players to stop cheating by looking up monster stats.

• It feels somewhat unfair to use mythic rules against players without giving them access to them as well.

That's discussed in Mythic Adventures but in short: sometimes a monster is more that just "an owlbear," it's "the legendary mythic owlbear that's been living in these woods for a hundred years," and defeating it is an awesome accomplishment—even more so if the PCs don't have mythic ranks.

• What percentage of the monster in Bestiary 4 will have mythic tiers?

Less than 10%. And most of them are above CR 10, so most campaigns wouldn't interact with them anyway.

• Using the Grendal as an example, how would you remove all of it's mythic tiers and powers? What would the resulting CR be?

I wouldn't remove them, I'd use them as-is, because it's totally modular, even in a non-mythic game.

I agree that the CR/MR looks a little confusing; when I first saw it, I thought it meant CR + MR, much the way the classes stack when separated by a slash in NPC stat blocks (ranger 4/fighter 6, for example).

Perhaps if the stat block was CR (MR), with MR in parentheses to distinguish it from the way classes are presented, it would be less confusing.

That is an EXCELLENT idea! Hopefully it's not too late to be implemented!

I'll bite your legs off!

It's too late to make that change, the files went out to be printed about 2 months ago.

So something like 30 monsters out of 300 or so. All CR 10+. Sounds like mythic will be a very minor component of the bestiary for people on the fence.

If Grendel is a CR 19, what level must Beowulf have been to single-handedly defeat him? Haha.

7...because my level 7 barbarian/cleric/fighter can do it. Stop looking at me like that...I am not a munchkin...I swear.

Interesting to see that Grendel at CR 19/MR 7 is worth the same amount of XP as any other CR 19 creature.

Interesting to see that Grendel at CR 19/MR 7 is worth the same amount of XP as any other CR 19 creature.

Well, in theory mythic is just a different sort of ability progression. The 'value' of those mythic abilities are already calculated into the monster's Cr.

Interesting to see that Grendel at CR 19/MR 7 is worth the same amount of XP as any other CR 19 creature.

Grendel's Mythic Rank is already factored into its Challenge Rating, just like all the other mythic monsters found in Mythic Adventures, and those found in Wrath of the Righteous.

Edit: Ninja'd by a dragon...

Ah, I see, thanks.

As another poster pointed out, the bite attack (-5 to attack roll and 1/2 Str bonus to damage) seems wrong according to the Pathfinder Rules for primary/secondary natural attacks.