Mythic Adventures

Amusing, but not strictly helpful. :)

Amusing, but not strictly helpful. :)

I'm building up my reservoir of helpful for the playtest :P

The Champion path seems kind of monk-ly. Unequaled skill in fighting styles, zipping around the battlefield, being the truck that delivers the smackdown. High mobility, high DPS. Sounds scrappy.

The Marshal path seems like it could be intriguing for a bard, summoner, druid, necromancer, cavalier or other minion-monger / force multiplier.

Wondering what social abilities are going to show up, and how they'll be spread out amongst the paths.

Hey, there's no Monk path. Guess once again there will be no to fix the Monk class. Again we see no love for The Class That Matters. Whatever we do now? /SARCASM

Ahhh, C'mon man. I like ya, Gorbacz, I really do. I find myself on your side of the fence more often than not. But is there any reason to take a shot at the Monk guys right now? Let's just keep this one clean. It's funny, I'll give you that, but jokes like that just invite them into the thread to respond. Please no.

Cheers,
Tony :)

I've already been posting in this thread...

Posting about Monks? I don't remember that. Or are you implying you're an actual Monk, which would be pretty neat, but not what I was technically referring to.

Now I'm confused.

Can't wait

I just picked a fight with Jason about Fafhrd and Grey Mouser being mythic (Gilgamesh could kick their asses)...

I like my boss, but we don't have cool workplace conversations like this.

To me, even "average" heroes in Pathfinder are supposed to be capable of becoming "mythic" (as it were)... I am not interested in a supplement that simply heaps more and more powers onto characters that are already pretty powerful- I won't be buying this.

I would have preferred to have seen a supplement designed to assist GMs with epic level (above 12th) campaigns and introduce some "epic level prestige classes" that could fill the same roll as this "mythic tier" stuff... and provide some kind of framework for higher level adventuring.

I've been trying to keep an open mind about Mythic Adventures but every time I see something concrete (like Amazing Initiative) it makes it a little harder not to be negative.

It doesn't matter that much. I don't believe that these rules are going to 'kill' Pathfinder or the game I love. If I never bought another Paizo book I'd still have a good decade of gaming to look forward to with what I've already purchased. I also think it's great that the Mythic rules are exciting Paizo's customers so much. Good for them, and good for all of you who are getting what you want.

As with all things, however, there's always a contingent of any population that won't be pleased with new developments. So far, it sounds like Mythic Adventures isn't going to be for me. That's okay though, and I'm still looking forward to seeing what the Playtest looks like.

I just picked a fight with Jason about Fafhrd and Grey Mouser being mythic (Gilgamesh could kick their asses), and he concedes that he's talking about them more at the end of their careers, and that it's a bit of a stretch to fit them into the paradigm he's thinking about, particularly if you focus on the earlier "grittier" stories that I tend to.

So, I wouldn't fixate too much on those two characters for the time being.

Gilgamesh is one of your 'earlier' stories? I don't think you can get much earlier than that :P

It would have nothing to do with 'not being worthy,' it would have to do with a group of adventurers deciding that they don't want evil-dude-X to become a god, and trying to stop him from passing the Test of the Starstone.

The Starstone itself would not be rendering any sort of judgement here, it would be purely the PCs deciding that they don't want, say, Tar-Baphon, or Razmir, or Arazni, or Abrogail Thrune, or the Black Sovereign of Numeria, or whomever (perhaps something a bit less human, like an elder aboleth sorcerer or a great wyrm dragon or a creature from Leng), to become the next Starstone Scion, and are willing to cross the chasm to fight him/her/it in the Cathedral, before they reach the Starstone itself.

The PCs might not even have to win, they might just have to force the bad-guy to expend so much of his personal resources fighting them off that it doesn't have enough left to pass the Test. Plus the nature of the Starstone might make it dangerous for everyone in the Cathedral, as challenges appear for both the aspirant, and from the PCs who are trying to thwart his ascencion.

... and THIS ... would make an interesting 1 to 3-part module using mythic adventures. Who wouldn't want to play the adventure to thwart someone from ascending that could lead to dire consequences?

But the real evil is that Lisa isn't even human man. No, she's actually an agent from an interstellar species sent here to fuel our imagination, forcing us to dream of fake worlds and impossible deeds...

I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.

I haven't read the comments, but just from the basic description and sample rule I'm seeing a potential problem.

That sample tier 2 mythic ability is huge. Unless it's the 3.5 divine metamagic of the mythic rules that means going up in mythic tiers is a really absurdly big deal. Seriously, that's better than the Diviner Wizard capstone. (maximizing init instead of rolling 1d20 is equivalent to +9.5 and the +1/2 level is +10 at 20 for a total of +19.5 to initiative compared to a flat +20)

Mythic tiers use heroic deeds. If those are individual heroic deeds then there's the risk of players getting ahead of or falling behind the rest of the party. The support classes would lag behind the flashy damage dealing classes and save or die wizards unless the deeds were very carefully laid out and even then more skilled players would tend to pull ahead. Once someone's pulled ahead they'd be able to be more heroic than the rest of their party by virtue of higher epic tier and may pull farther ahead.

I haven't read the comments, but just from the basic description and sample rule I'm seeing a potential problem.

That sample tier 2 mythic ability is huge. Unless it's the 3.5 divine metamagic of the mythic rules that means going up in mythic tiers is a really absurdly big deal. Seriously, that's better than the Diviner Wizard capstone. (maximizing init instead of rolling 1d20 is equivalent to +9.5 and the +1/2 level is +10 at 20 for a total of +19.5 to initiative compared to a flat +20)

Keep in mind that Mythic tiers don't give you additional hit points, saves, or anything else that a normal level usually gives you. These abilities have to be *VERY* good in order to be roughly equivalent to a character gaining one level.

I haven't read the comments, but just from the basic description and sample rule I'm seeing a potential problem.

That sample tier 2 mythic ability is huge. Unless it's the 3.5 divine metamagic of the mythic rules that means going up in mythic tiers is a really absurdly big deal. Seriously, that's better than the Diviner Wizard capstone. (maximizing init instead of rolling 1d20 is equivalent to +9.5 and the +1/2 level is +10 at 20 for a total of +19.5 to initiative compared to a flat +20.

I'm fairly confident that's the point. It's supposed to be a huge deal, a massive deal in fact. That's why one of the ways to get Mythic Tiers is through being given a gift by a god. Though, as stated elsewhere in the comments, this is one of only a few powers that actually gives a straight numerical bonus. And at the end of the day, initiative isn't a huge deal. Well, it might be for those non-Mythic creatures but once you start getting Mythic Tiers, most non-Mythics of equal or lower CR become mooks anyway (this last part is merely assumption based on current undertones in the design).

Mythic tiers use heroic deeds. If those are individual heroic deeds then there's the risk of players getting ahead of or falling behind the rest of the party. The support classes would lag behind the flashy damage dealing classes and save or die wizards unless the deeds were very carefully laid out and even then more skilled players would tend to pull ahead. Once someone's pulled ahead they'd be able to be more heroic than the rest of their party by virtue of higher epic tier and may pull farther ahead.

Yeah, almost like the design team planned it this way and then proceeded to carefully lay out how deed progression works so that everyone balances. But I'm sure that can't be the case. That would be weird.

Yeah, almost like the design team planned it this way and then proceeded to carefully lay out how deed progression works so that everyone balances. But I'm sure that can't be the case. That would be weird.

No matter how careful the design team is differences in player skill will wreck things, and the design team hasn't been very careful since Core. Witness stuff like the action economy breaking Summoner and the complete marginalization of the rogue and the ring of 3.5 persistent spell.

I recommend we keep this on mythic, so if anyone disagrees with Atarlost's statement to the point of wanting to respond to it, consider making a new thread :)

Go mythic rules, can't wait!

As with all things, however, there's always a contingent of any population that won't be pleased with new developments. So far, it sounds like Mythic Adventures isn't going to be for me. That's okay though, and I'm still looking forward to seeing what the Playtest looks like.

I can respect that. Vast difference between "Not for me" and "Pathfinder is ruined".

Mythic Adventures is not going to be for everyone.

Nothing is.

Except oxygen, I'm pretty sure everyone wants oxygen.

Unless they're plant people...

Wander Weir wrote:

As with all things, however, there's always a contingent of any population that won't be pleased with new developments. So far, it sounds like Mythic Adventures isn't going to be for me. That's okay though, and I'm still looking forward to seeing what the Playtest looks like.

I can respect that. Vast difference between "Not for me" and "Pathfinder is ruined".

Mythic Adventures is not going to be for everyone.

Nothing is.

Except oxygen, I'm pretty sure everyone wants oxygen.

Unless they're plant people...

Or Lisa, man, she's an alien agent I'm telling you! I managed to escape her Golem Death Squad. Turns out 10 foot tall robots don't fit into manholes very well. One day, Lisa will give the signal, and the extraterrestrials will invade, kill us all and harvest our planet!

Wander Weir wrote:

As with all things, however, there's always a contingent of any population that won't be pleased with new developments. So far, it sounds like Mythic Adventures isn't going to be for me. That's okay though, and I'm still looking forward to seeing what the Playtest looks like.

I can respect that. Vast difference between "Not for me" and "Pathfinder is ruined".

Mythic Adventures is not going to be for everyone.

Nothing is.

Except oxygen, I'm pretty sure everyone wants oxygen.

Unless they're plant people...

Heh, even a plant can suffocate without oxygen. When there is no light to power photosynthesis, the plant uses oxygen just like any living thing ;)

Laruuk wrote:

Wander Weir wrote:

As with all things, however, there's always a contingent of any population that won't be pleased with new developments. So far, it sounds like Mythic Adventures isn't going to be for me. That's okay though, and I'm still looking forward to seeing what the Playtest looks like.

I can respect that. Vast difference between "Not for me" and "Pathfinder is ruined".

Mythic Adventures is not going to be for everyone.

Nothing is.

Except oxygen, I'm pretty sure everyone wants oxygen.

Unless they're plant people...

Or Lisa, man, she's an alien agent I'm telling you! I managed to escape her Golem Death Squad. Turns out 10 foot tall robots don't fit into manholes very well. One day, Lisa will give the signal, and the extraterrestrials will invade, kill us all and harvest our planet!

Don't worry Tels, I'm still with you on this one. I've already started work on my bunker.

I recommend we keep this on mythic, so if anyone disagrees with Atarlost's statement to the point of wanting to respond to it, consider making a new thread :)

Fair enough, Cheapy, and good call. Nothing to fear from me. I'm not even going to touch design team comments that fall outside statements regarding Mythic.

I want to note, that at this time, there is no limit to how many mythic tiers you can possess, other than the upper cap of 10. The guideline about have no more than half your level is just that, a guideline (and done for good reason as some of the higher tier abilities cue off of higher level abilities from the classes).

Cap? Cap!?!? We don't need no stinking cap!

:-)

(In other words, I fully expect to stretch this system as badly as I'm stretching the current 3.5e system.)

*grin*

I dearly hope that Mythic Adventures ends up being one of the best selling RPG books, ever, ushering in a new golden era for Paizo.

On a different note,

I sort of get the feeling that, unlike some other things that people don't like or isn't in their comfort zone, Mythic Adventures has been in the works for awhile, and will be getting a lot of TLC.

I'm not saying this will in turn make people against the book suddenly want to buy it, but I really don't believe this will cause nearly as much trouble as people seem to think.

Just remember, this is pretty much a GM optional system. If you have players who come to the table saying "Its a hardcover book, a part of the core rules, I demand that you let me use Mythic Tiers", politely remind them that the Bestiaries are also hardcover books and a part of core, and yet monsters are generally off limits as player races.

Or you know, if you wanna bit a bit more jerky, tell the player they can have their Mythic rules, but they must play a Haunt or trap.

Just remember, this is pretty much a GM optional system. If you have players who come to the table saying "Its a hardcover book, a part of the core rules, I demand that you let me use Mythic Tiers", politely remind them that the Bestiaries are also hardcover books and a part of core, and yet monsters are generally off limits as player races.

The optional argument doesn't really work in this case, though, because they're planning to devote an entire Adventure Path to the system. That kind of changes the rules.

It's also an indication of just how seriously Paizo is taking this 'optional' rule system. That hasn't happened before and given the success of the APs, they're definitely showing a lot of optimism. Of course, maybe that's well placed, given the enthusiasm thus far.

Most likely it will be possible to run the AP in question without using mythic rules (at least for the PCs). Maybe as simple as "any time the PCs should gain a mythic tier, give them a regular class level instead".

True but like most APs, there will be people that'll skip it. I knew one "friend" who skipped Jade Regent because he was vehemently against anything that was "asian". Another guy hates pirates and skipped Skull and Shackles. And then there was the drow hate back in the day that prevented even me from getting Second Darkness (I regret that now, having bought it recently).

Monkeygod wrote:

Just remember, this is pretty much a GM optional system. If you have players who come to the table saying "Its a hardcover book, a part of the core rules, I demand that you let me use Mythic Tiers", politely remind them that the Bestiaries are also hardcover books and a part of core, and yet monsters are generally off limits as player races.

The optional argument doesn't really work in this case, though, because they're planning to devote an entire Adventure Path to the system. That kind of changes the rules.

It's also an indication of just how seriously Paizo is taking this 'optional' rule system. That hasn't happened before and given the success of the APs, they're definitely showing a lot of optimism. Of course, maybe that's well placed, given the enthusiasm thus far.

From some things they've said, it might be more, They're writing these rules so they can do this AP.

Mythic Adventures is not going to be for everyone.

Nothing is.

Except oxygen, I'm pretty sure everyone wants oxygen.

Unless they're plant people...

Plants use carbon dioxide which, last time I checked, was two thirds oxygen ;)

Now Horta and giant space slugs... :D

Let's try the logical approach here:

The APs have been, without question, what makes Paizo successful. Without them, they wouldn't have felt confident enough to go forth with the Pathfinder rules.

If we never had the APs, we would never have Varisia, which in turn means we would never have gotten Golarion.

Want to know why, according to multiple Paizo staff including James Jacobs and Eric Mona, we have not gotten something like Pathfinder Modern, despite a fair amount of fans wanting it?

Because they would want to fully support it, just like they do with Golarion and the normal Pathfinder rules. Which includes APs. Even if they attempted to do this, the amount of staff they currently employ means each "faction" would suffer.

There was a recent hiring, done pretty much solely based on wanting to make the APs better.

Take all of this, and ask yourself, do you really, honestly, deep down in the darkest corners of your heart and soul, think that Paizo is going to create a new Adventure Path that actually forces its costumers to do something they may not want to?? Such as buy a new rulebook, and use rules they actively oppose???

Does this mean that any hope of an ELH equivalent will not be considered as a future endeavor?

As far as I know, Paizo has not said one way or the other, but it seems unlikely. I would however expect to see some Mythic Adventures, possibly even a Mythic AP in the distant future if the rulebook sells well.

Hard to say without seeing the rules, but this seems like sort of is a "have your cake and eat it too" solution, with Paizo able to leave "epic" play in the sweet spot level-wise that players seem to favor (1st-12th) and still have a Epic (20+) type feel to the game.

I would however expect to see some Mythic Adventures, possibly even a Mythic AP in the distant future if the rulebook sells well.

There'll be one at launch, as I understand things. I'm pretty sure the Worldwound adventure path, launching at the same time as Mythic Adventures, is intended to be played using those rules.

I think it will be possible to play using just core, but as I read it the intention is for the characters to be advancing in Mythic Powers parallel to and pretty much independently of their gaining of regular levels.

Let's try the logical approach here:

The APs have been, without question, what makes Paizo successful. Without them, they wouldn't have felt confident enough to go forth with the Pathfinder rules.

If we never had the APs, we would never have Varisia, which in turn means we would never have gotten Golarion.

Want to know why, according to multiple Paizo staff including James Jacobs and Eric Mona, we have not gotten something like Pathfinder Modern, despite a fair amount of fans wanting it?

Because they would want to fully support it, just like they do with Golarion and the normal Pathfinder rules. Which includes APs. Even if they attempted to do this, the amount of staff they currently employ means each "faction" would suffer.

There was a recent hiring, done pretty much solely based on wanting to make the APs better.

Take all of this, and ask yourself, do you really, honestly, deep down in the darkest corners of your heart and soul, think that Paizo is going to create a new Adventure Path that actually forces its costumers to do something they may not want to?? Such as buy a new rulebook, and use rules they actively oppose???

maybe I am misreading this, but they have flat out stated the worldwound AP will feature these rules, and what's more that it will be very difficult to run this AP without them. So yes, it seems like for this AP, and the occasional future AP, will require these rules.

WANT

hmmmmm could be interesting , it really depends on how they handle it.
hopefully we will see more information on mythic soon.

Want to know why, according to multiple Paizo staff including James Jacobs and Eric Mona, we have not gotten something like Pathfinder Modern, despite a fair amount of fans wanting it?

Pathfinder modern would pretty much be a completely different game. On the other hand, Mythic rules is simply on optional expansion of the current rules. There's a big difference. In order to be done properly, Pathfinder Modern would have to be its own separate product line in my opinion.

If you don't want to use mythic rules you'll just have to skip out on one book and one full adventure path next year. Maybe a few other things will come out in the following years, but Paizo will probably mostly go back to non-mythic Pathfinder. I'm not sure what the big deal is, lol.

Hmmm, any chance of paizo taking a page from Green Ronin when it comes to their public play-testing?

Hmmm, any chance of paizo taking a page from Green Ronin when it comes to their public play-testing?

What has GRR done with their public play-testing that you want for PF to do/avoid?

One thing that has kept me out of the Paizo public play-tests are that they're pretty much done on the forums. Things tend to run based on speculation, arguing, complaining, insulting, and in the end it seems the loudest voices are the ones that are heard. Green Ronin has a simple enough setup. Download the PDF of their rules as they stand, playtest with your friends, submit a report based on play-test guidelines (they have a form you effectively fill out). I think it allows for a more balanced play test without the uproar that occurs on the message boards.

I could be alone in this line of thinking, however, perhaps letting past poor experiences/observations (and Ultimate Magic) kind of taint my opinion on how these Play-tests are handled.

Note: Not saying their method is perfect, by any means, nothing is. I just think something public, but a little more... professional? Not sure if that's the word I want to use but there it is, would be a wiser way to go, possible allowing for more balance for a system known to have a hard time with such things.

One thing that has kept me out of the Paizo public play-tests are that they're pretty much done on the forums. Things tend to run based on speculation, arguing, complaining, insulting, and in the end it seems the loudest voices are the ones that are heard. Green Ronin has a simple enough setup. Download the PDF of their rules as they stand, playtest with your friends, submit a report based on play-test guidelines (they have a form you effectively fill out). I think it allows for a more balanced play test without the uproar that occurs on the message boards.

I could be alone in this line of thinking, however, perhaps letting past poor experiences/observations (and Ultimate Magic) kind of taint my opinion on how these Play-tests are handled.

Only issue with this is that it really won't stop the uproar. People are still going to talk about it on the forums, only with your way, there isn't a central forum to do it and it would instead flood General Discussion. Although I do agree that there should be less vitriol, the playtests have shown more than speculation. Many people do show the mathematics behind many of the underlying issues of the object they are playtesting, which is very helpful. I do like the idea of guidelines in reporting though, and I think that would help. But honestly, it is impossible to stem the tide of anger and really, the only thing you can do is have a central playtest forum for it so the devs can read the feedback, both good and bad.

I am very much looking forward to this. I think this is a very good idea;
but I just can't help but feel this is sort of giving us what we want with out giving us what we want, level 21+ game play, which maybe a good thing.

Just wish we had something other than the 3.0 DnD rules to go with a little as I do have a 100% legit level 20 character I was hoping to get to at least level 30.

Lets see what happens. This sounds really cool.

I am very much looking forward to this. I think this is a very good idea;

but I just can't help but feel this is sort of giving us what we want with out giving us what we want, level 21+ game play, which maybe a good thing.

Just wish we had something other than the 3.0 DnD rules to go with a little as I do have a 100% legit level 20 character I was hoping to get to at least level 30.

Lets see what happens. This sounds really cool.

Perhaps some questions might help.

Why do you want levels above 20? What is it that having more than 20 levels makes you feel?

I think I would like to see an expansion of the Playtest to include a simple, non-public feedback method. Having playtest forums does serve a useful purpose, but sometimes you just notice something simple, get confused, or the like.

One thing that has kept me out of the Paizo public play-tests are that they're pretty much done on the forums.

The downside of public playtests is that they are indeed public, and the hoi-polloi can speak their minds.

The downside of private playtests is that I don't get invited to them.

Eh. Whatareyagonnado? /shrug

DM Doom wrote:

One thing that has kept me out of the Paizo public play-tests are that they're pretty much done on the forums.

The downside of public playtests is that they are indeed public, and the hoi-polloi can speak their minds.

The downside of private playtests is that I don't get invited to them.

Eh. Whatareyagonnado? /shrug

I hope the irony in this post was intentional.

I hope the irony in this post was intentional.

Made my day :)

Anyways, I like this idea very much because I would never had the chance to play Epic rules as my players do not like Level 15+ because of all the fuss.

But Mythic Rules, definetely!

And, as already been said, these rules are entirely optional, to use continuously or temporrarily - great design.