Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview #1

So, uh, when can we expect the next preview Jason? Will the core classes have alternate abilities not related to the races or favored classes? Will there be alternate race traits for Aasimar/Tieflings as well as alternate favored class options (such as Paladin for the Aasimar)? Do tell! ^^

Assuming this one hasn't frustrated him so much he's giving up on the idea they are weekly.

0gre wrote:

IMO power creep is the simple concept that the guy who has the biggest library and most recent source books can make the most powerful character. It's not specific to any one thing.

Well, I kinda disagree on this definition. Since, by design, splat books must be approved by the GM, everybody gets cool new abilities ( although you have a point on class specific splat books ).

Power creep means to me that every subsequent book introduces more powerful options rather than more diverse options. D&D 3.5 heavily suffered from that at its tail-end and I hope Pathfinder manages to avert it. Both power creep and a deluge of splatbooks, that is... I find that after a certain tipping point, too many options become a huge mess. OTOH, before that tipping point they are a great addition to the game. ^^

You seem to be disagreeing with me then saying exactly what I said.

I am confused. I have no problem with diverse options, I just don't think having more books should mean you have more powerful characters.

Berselius wrote:

So, uh, when can we expect the next preview Jason? Will the core classes have alternate abilities not related to the races or favored classes? Will there be alternate race traits for Aasimar/Tieflings as well as alternate favored class options (such as Paladin for the Aasimar)? Do tell! ^^

Assuming this one hasn't frustrated him so much he's giving up on the idea they are weekly.

Let us hope that is not the case.

...Sincerely.

The APG previews are a (non)shamefully exciting point for my weeks to come.

Power Creep in 3.5 ? The most stupidly unbalanced things in 3.5 were in the PHB. Polymorph. Natural Spell + Wildshape. Save-or-suck spells. Save-or-die spells. Holy Trifecta.

3.5 splatbooks were like blind children in the mist, either trying to fix 3.5 problems and falling flat on the face (True Necromancer ? 6,000 Polymorph Erratas ? 10,000 useless melee feats ?), fixing 3.5 problems (To9s and PHB2 stuff, mostly) or in few rare cases, introducing stuff even more borked than 3.5 core (Planar Shepherd, Frenzied Berserker, Wraithstrike).

Every splat material from 3.5 should be viewed thru the lens of a CoDzilla. If you do that, you realize that the biggest power creep is the PHB.

Power Creep in 3.5 ? The most stupidly unbalanced things in 3.5 were in the PHB. Polymorph. Natural Spell + Wildshape. Save-or-suck spells. Save-or-die spells. Holy Trifecta.

3.5 splatbooks were like blind children in the mist, either trying to fix 3.5 problems and falling flat on the face (True Necromancer ? 6,000 Polymorph Erratas ? 10,000 useless melee feats ?), fixing 3.5 problems (To9s and PHB2 stuff, mostly) or in few rare cases, introducing stuff even more borked than 3.5 core (Planar Shepherd, Frenzied Berserker, Wraithstrike).

Every splat material from 3.5 should be viewed thru the lens of a CoDzilla. If you do that, you realize that the biggest power creep is the PHB.

Can you actually have power creep in the core rulebook? What's the baseline it's creeping from? I mean, if you take a 3.5 Monk as the baseline, well, a commoner starts to get accused of power creep. If you take CoDzilla anything short of "Summon Kratos" as an at will is going to be considered weak.

That's the problem of 3.5 core, it creeps from one page to another :P

magnuskn wrote:

0gre wrote:

IMO power creep is the simple concept that the guy who has the biggest library and most recent source books can make the most powerful character. It's not specific to any one thing.

Well, I kinda disagree on this definition. Since, by design, splat books must be approved by the GM, everybody gets cool new abilities ( although you have a point on class specific splat books ).

Power creep means to me that every subsequent book introduces more powerful options rather than more diverse options. D&D 3.5 heavily suffered from that at its tail-end and I hope Pathfinder manages to avert it. Both power creep and a deluge of splatbooks, that is... I find that after a certain tipping point, too many options become a huge mess. OTOH, before that tipping point they are a great addition to the game. ^^

You seem to be disagreeing with me then saying exactly what I said.

I am confused. I have no problem with diverse options, I just don't think having more books should mean you have more powerful characters.

I am only quibbling on the details of a turn of phrase. :p I dunno, I felt peckish yesterday.

wakedown wrote:

I honestly think the people who feel the sorcerer variant is "way more powerful than the HP or skill point" may not have a lot of experience seeing sorcerers in play at various levels.

That's just condescending. So you are right and we are wrong? Who died and made you God?

Nobody died, but everybody is entitled to their opinions. Personally I agree with him, having played spellcasters extensively since ADnD. This extra spell known thing is nowhere as powerful as many people are blowing it up to be. Honestly... the bards alternate favored bonus is "better" if you want to talk in platitudes.

As it stands it makes for a cool new choice to make when you level up.

everybody is entitled to their opinions? Sure (although you may not actually express all your opinions on these message boards.) I didn't question his right to his opinions, I questioned his manners.

Erik Mona wrote:

Time for everyone to cool down or some of you are going to be sitting in the corner for a while.

Nyoorgh... spurtle ... APG overpowered ! broken ! ... sploortch ... nobody will play Celestial Dire Roper Sorcerers anymore ... shlooop ... Eric Monna's comment ... GOOOP ... unlawful assault on the First Amendment ! ... splooortch ... NERDRAGEEEEE !!!!

Stoopid ooze. You doan no nutin you talk about.

0gre wrote:

Berselius wrote:

So, uh, when can we expect the next preview Jason? Will the core classes have alternate abilities not related to the races or favored classes? Will there be alternate race traits for Aasimar/Tieflings as well as alternate favored class options (such as Paladin for the Aasimar)? Do tell! ^^

Assuming this one hasn't frustrated him so much he's giving up on the idea they are weekly.

Let us hope that is not the case.

...Sincerely.

The APG previews are a (non)shamefully exciting point for my weeks to come.

I think he knew what was comming. He must have a tough skin, he survived the previews for the Core Rulebook ;-)

Not to mention the Summoner war.

Bill Dunn wrote:

Does it automatically follow, then, that +5 Spell > +5 hp? Or +10 Spell > +10 hp or even +10 Spell > +5 hp +5 Spell?

You don't get to decide it that way though. A 16th level wizard might be better off with 2 extra hit points than 2 extra 1st level spells but when you are at 4th level making the choice it's better to take the spell and remains the better choice for some time.

That's why I'm making the distinction between the short term strategy of picking up the biggest immediate improvement vs a longer term strategy that forgoes some of the short term benefits in favor of longer term considerations.

Personally, I find I almost never have enough skill points, but extra HP? Not usually so vital to me in my experience.

We have had a fair number of sorcerers played in my time running 3.x - spontaneous casters have been exceedingly attractive options for most of my players over the more Vancian-bound wizard. And, to be honest, whenever I sit down to build a Sorcerer, I always find myself wishing I had more spells known than I get, no matter the level. Especially since (something a lot of people seem to be forgetting) spells scale in effectiveness. Lower level spells are often still useful at higher levels, even if the higher level ones are generally more powerful. Extra spells provide extra versatility, which is a hugely useful thing to have. I'm not saying it's necessarily broken, and I probably won't play human sorcerers any more than I already do (since I almost universally play humans anyway), but it will make that race significantly more attractive as it stands right now, and it will almost always be my go-to option. People are knocking extra Cantrips known like they're not useful, but from first through third level, cantrips are still very useful spells, and having more of them available (all at infinite utility) is exceedingly attractive too.

That's for sure. I doubt I'll ever see a nonhuman sorcerer in my game again. Being human gets you what, 40% more spells known? That's huge.

As a player (which I rarely get to do), I almost always play wizards. That will probably change now -- 2 more spells known at every level in my mind makes the sorcerer 'versatile enough' to let spontaneous casting trump memorization.

Ken

Time for everyone to cool down or some of you are going to be sitting in the corner for a while.

Nobody puts baby in corner

I like the bonus..my sorcerers always feel sort of useless because inevitibly you find yourself in a situation where you have no part to play in a combat except to provide an additional target..or plink with crossbow

good stuff

Yes, Cantrips are not bad. People say lower level spells grow obsolete at higher levels. That's not true. With Quicken Spell you'll be using low level spells a lot. Quicken Mirror Image, Quicken shield, Quicken Ray of Enfeeblement or True Strike or Expeditious Retreat or Touch of Idiocy (No save) Scorching Ray, Glitterdust, Blur, Mage Armor, Grease, etc.

That's for sure. I doubt I'll ever see a nonhuman sorcerer in my game again. Being human gets you what, 40% more spells known? That's huge.

Ken

Three of which would be cantrips, and 6 additional would be sub 5th level spells.

When building a character from the ground up that is ALREADY high level, say level 12+ then yes it is useful because you know what you will be facing. This happens in two cases, one where you die and need a new character and dont WANT to be rezzed. That and games built for the sake of building insane munchkin characters in the first and blowing the back end out of some bad dudes.

At level 1-3 will picking up Detect Poison or Arcane Mark be more worth it to you than getting another hit point or another rank in perception? I doubt it, esp if you are actually PLAYING the game and not just writing up fictional characters to fantasize about in your head.

On a totally side note...

Does the Dwarf just always look awesome in every artwork they have him in?

I mean.. he's not even really doing anything actiony in this action shot, just standing there and gritting his teeth. And he's still exuding awesome.

That, and it seems like the goblins are getting creepier and creepier with every new artwork that includes them. I think it's the gums on some of them this time that are pushing it just a little over that edge.

I always start new campaigns at level one. And I -am- playing the game, and pretty much have been continuously since 1977.

Even if you don't take the cantrips (and yes, I would take hp at those levels) you're still 40 percent ahead on spells. And your assertion that low level spells don't retain their usefulness is just wrong. -- especially if you take metamagic feats.

Ken

kenmckinney wrote:

That's for sure. I doubt I'll ever see a nonhuman sorcerer in my game again. Being human gets you what, 40% more spells known? That's huge.

Ken

Three of which would be cantrips, and 6 additional would be sub 5th level spells.

Also keep in mind that most PC character advance slowly, over time through a campaign. The bonus spell you picked 3 months back when you were fighting skeletons and Gnolls wont nec be very "useful" when you are up against Genies, Giants, and Golems.

When building a character from the ground up that is ALREADY high level, say level 12+ then yes it is useful because you know what you will be facing. This happens in two cases, one where you die and need a new character and dont WANT to be rezzed. That and games built for the sake of building insane munchkin characters in the first and blowing the back end out of some bad dudes.

At level 1-3 will picking up Detect Poison or Arcane Mark be more worth it to you than getting another hit point or another rank in perception? I doubt it, esp if you are actually PLAYING the game and not just writing up fictional characters to fantasize about in your head.

All we've done is establish that having extra spells is nice. Having extra HP is nice, having extra skill points is nice. No one has brought forth a convincing argument why extra spells makes extra HP or skill points useless. In my personal opinion, unless you can establish that, its not overpowered. YMMV as always.

All we've done is establish that having extra spells is nice. Having extra HP is nice, having extra skill points is nice. No one has brought forth a convincing argument why extra spells makes extra HP or skill points useless. In my personal opinion, unless you can establish that, its not overpowered. YMMV as always.

In my personal opinion that's false logic.

In my personal opinion that's false logic.

I think what he meant to say that all three options are nice, and that to him none of them "overpower" the others. To him that is... and me.

Zark wrote:

In my personal opinion that's false logic.

I think what he meant to say that all three options are nice, and that to him none of them "overpower" the others. To him that is... and me.

OK.

Zark wrote:

In my personal opinion that's false logic.

I think what he meant to say that all three options are nice, and that to him none of them "overpower" the others. To him that is... and me.

... And me

On thing that I'm wondering about with the racial favored class options is how much those options were restricted to certain races for game balance purposes, and how much it was merely for thematic reasons?

I'm always looking for toolkit options, I want legos to play with as much as possible, so does it screw everything up if you can give any race the sorcerer's extra spell option? Or is it too tied to behind the scenes calculations to be feasible?

I could be missing something in the thread, but has anyone considered that using this new fangled human sorcery bit, one can simply pick Bear's Endurance as one of the 2nd level spells and get the extra HPs that way?

Best of both worlds?

In my personal opinion that's false logic.

False logic is fun, it fans the flames that make these threads fun to read!

Well to be honest most of my spells tend to be direct damage(yes I am aware that is suboptimal thank you) or area control..the extra spells would probably go on summonings..

Bear's Endurance doesn't last very long, so you can't always have it up. However, you can and should pick up False Life this way.

Ken

Themetricsystem wrote:

Zark wrote:

In my personal opinion that's false logic.

I think what he meant to say that all three options are nice, and that to him none of them "overpower" the others. To him that is... and me.

... And me

I'll hop on this bandwagon.

IMO, the spell option is far more powerful than the HP or skill ones.
Spells are powerful and versatile, a good selection of them goes a long way.

Said this, it's not such a tragedy. I don't think that people will stop playing sorcerer races different from human for this.

If it's really game breaking, I'd wait to see it in actual game. A lot of things seem "ZOMGPOWERFUL" on paper and in actual play result simply quite strong.

Moreover, I prefer that the design of an RPG is more oriented toward options and variety. Yes, some option could result as slightly more powerful, but I prefer this to a flat sameness in the name of balance.

Diversity leads to more interesting gameworlds, IMO.

Paizo team has shown to listen to us, and if there's an actual, game breaking issue, they will fix it. It already happened and I trust them.

Bear's Endurance doesn't last very long, so you can't always have it up. However, you can and should pick up False Life this way.

Ken

Rod of Extend Metamagic + False Life + 8th level = 16 hour aka All Day false life. I love that rod. I don't say those words lightly about any rods, really, at all, but this one is pretty cool. Leave me alone.

I don't think its an overpowered option, and I think it will create options at least for some people. I do see where those in favor of it being a no brainer are coming from, since there are few if any methods of gaining lots of extra spells known for a sorcerer. There are numerous ways to gain skills, skill bonuses, and Hps, from spells to magic items, but very little gives you knowledge of a spell you didn't know before. In that regard, it has much greater value than 1 hp or 1 skill point.

I like the ideas for new favored class benefits.

That said, the option for human sorcerers is horrible imo. Balanced or not you can get +50% spells known, almost neutralizing what is one of the main differences between a wizard and a sorcerer. Not a game breaker but too much imo.

Imo it needs some more limitation about the spell level, maybe half of your maximum spell level, instead of -1 level. Low level spells aren't such a problem, but a sorcerer only gets a few high level spells, and changing 1hp for a new spell would be mandatory imo.

I have to say that given the ammount of beta testing the new PrCs and rules get I can't rely much on them.

5 short, incomplete, excerpts totalling 12 lines out of an 18 page chapter of a 336 page book. I think I'll save my panic for later and give the people who designed this material the benefit of the doubt until I see the other 335 and 9/10 pages. Sure, it's interesting but come on people, quit adding to internet message board stereotypes...

*edit* I've read the whole thread in the last couple days btw, and I'm not talking to most of you (who are capable of rational discussion), just "the sky is falling in OMG, this soooo overpowered, the game is broken" people. You know who you are :)

I think the whole point that it is not supposed to be balanced with extra hp or extra skill point is lost on some people. It is an advantage to one race.

Just like all the other advantages that will be available to other races as alternate favored classes, it will give an advantage to the iconic "racial" classes.

That said, I really like this. I had come to miss the "elves have the best wizards" "gnomes make the best illusionists" kind of thing.

Anyway, I am SO waiting for this...

Hey there Everyone,

Before I head out for grilled meat and explosions, I figured I would pop on here and answer a few things.

First, yes I have a tough skin. You have to in this industry. No worries.

Second, there will be another preview this week, probably on Thursday, but I have yet to confirm the weekly cycle.

Third, have a good holiday.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Third, have a good holiday.

This is the most broken thing I've ever seen from you, Mr. Lead Designer. You certainly put the "power" in "creep," Jason.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Third, have a good holiday.

This is the most broken thing I've ever seen from you, Mr. Lead Designer. You certainly put the "power" in "creep," Jason.

I thought he put the creep in, ... oh you don't mean stalker creepy you mean the other kind. NM.

I think the whole point that it is not supposed to be balanced with extra hp or extra skill point is lost on some people. It is an advantage to one race.

Just like all the other advantages that will be available to other races as alternate favored classes, it will give an advantage to the iconic "racial" classes.

That said, I really like this. I had come to miss the "elves have the best wizards" "gnomes make the best illusionists" kind of thing.

Anyway, I am SO waiting for this...

Personally, I loathe 'elves have the best wizards' and such.

I would far more prefer if this turned out with 'elves make different wizards' and 'gnomes make different illusionists'. Different options for different races.

I don't want to see it become something where you're penalising yourself to play a non-elf wizard or non-gnome illusionist.

(or a non-human sorcerer as some are suggesting)

Personally, I loathe 'elves have the best wizards' and such.

I would far more prefer if this turned out with 'elves make different wizards' and 'gnomes make different illusionists'. Different options for different races.

I don't want to see it become something where you're penalising yourself to play a non-elf wizard or non-gnome illusionist.

(or a non-human sorcerer as some are suggesting)

I can understand that. Maybe my wording was not as I intended. But I like the old premise of Elven Magic was different from Human magic. Having evolved over millennia (Elven magic), verses the innovative style of the Humans.

But yeah, I agree with you there... that was what I was trying to convey...

That does not mean that the favored class abilities have to be equivalent to a skill point or hit point, as long as all of the racial abilities are somewhat equivalent. ^_^

yoda8myhead wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Third, have a good holiday.

This is the most broken thing I've ever seen from you, Mr. Lead Designer. You certainly put the "power" in "creep," Jason.

I thought he put the creep in, ... oh you don't mean stalker creepy you mean the other kind. NM.

Nope Mark does that (see Jason's picture on Facebook). :)

Not to mention the Summoner war.

don't mention the war

Hey there Everyone,

Before I head out for grilled meat and explosions, I figured I would pop on here and answer a few things.

First, yes I have a tough skin. You have to in this industry. No worries.

Second, there will be another preview this week, probably on Thursday, but I have yet to confirm the weekly cycle.

Third, have a good holiday.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

:-)

Well, I got to wonder why the elven wizard gets such a low-power favoured class bonus substitute, compared to the human sorcerer or gnome bard. Although it is not as if an elven wizard would need much further help in being one of the best race/class combinations... ^^

This is the most broken thing I've ever seen from you, Mr. Lead Designer. You certainly put the "power" in "creep," Jason.

Ha!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH

On thing that I'm wondering about with the racial favored class options is how much those options were restricted to certain races for game balance purposes, and how much it was merely for thematic reasons?

At its heart, they were designed more for thematic reasons - things that fit with a given race/class combo. OF course, there was an effort to make them reasonably balanced, but "BALANCE UBER ALLES" was not the design imperative. There are many different abilities, and some will be more appealing than others to players of different sorts. Heck, for that matter there were more *different* race/favored class things originally than in the final version. I turned in a list of ideas for racial favored class options, some fairly simple, some kind of quirky or esoteric, and the developers went through them, found the ones that seemed most interesting and balanced and sorted out the ones that were less so, and added in a few more that they came up with, and voila - a chapter that, once you get it, should provide ample fodder for debate and discussion about what abilities are your favorites (or un-favorites).

That, I think, is going to be a much more fun conversation once everybody sees all the choices there are and the option to take your character a lot of different directions.

I just shake my head when reading threads like this where the "OMG, That makes the PCs too powerful. It's Broken!" crowd Decry any option for the players to feel like they can be like the characters from fiction.

Have you never heard about adjusting the challenges to fit the characters? My gaming group can and has broken pretty well every class in 3.5 and are able to create characters in PF that are way more effective than you'd think at first glance. Me? I don't limit them to a 15pt buy or say this or that is not allowed. I just adjust the challenges higher. Average fight for them would be at +1 level, not on level. Etc. and so forth.

To bring this back on topic, having a few extra spells known is not a game breaker. I don't think it is all that much worse than the other options.

Having more options to use does not make a class broken if they still only have the same number of usable options per round. Otherwise, the Mystic Theurge would be an overpowered class... and not the somewhat underpowered class it is in reality.