September 2020 Pathfinder Society Releases

I'm just going to say that I don't think some folks here understand the concepts of the Enlightenment, modernity, and para-military organizations and leave it at that.

Or

Your personal understanding of the concepts of the Enlightenment, modernity, and para-military organizations, are not universally held.

Or

Or the concepts of the Enlightenment, modernity, and para-military organizations as used in the Golarion setting are not the same as your personal beliefs.

pjrogers wrote:

I'm just going to say that I don't think some folks here understand the concepts of the Enlightenment, modernity, and para-military organizations and leave it at that.

Or

Your personal understanding of the concepts of the Enlightenment, modernity, and para-military organizations, are not universally held.

Or

Or the concepts of the Enlightenment, modernity, and para-military organizations as used in the Golarion setting are not the same as your personal beliefs.

Or

Not all influences on a society result in the same outcomes every time.

Or

Different influences on different societies can sometimes result in similar outcomes.

I'll try and be reasonably polite, but I'm fairly certain it would not be hard to find examples of every poster (with sufficient posts) using analogous reasoning about Earth to Golarion. In fact similarity is crucial to most people understanding the setting. Use of the word trope is an automatic example of using preexisting knowledge of Earth and applying it to Golarion. A rich setting has numerous similarities and differences to the real world, and the appeal or lack of is highly subjective. pjrogers original post had the appositive phrase ",to my mind," which clearly indicated he understood it was a subjective opinion. And then a series of short posts derailed this relatively simple point. It was watching a game of Telephone construct a strawman. We can do a lot better discussion than this.

You sure about that?

I'm somewhat cursed to be an optimist of all things (I mostly blame Stark Trek for instilling that), so yes I'm sure we can do better. I hang out on a sports message board that manages pretty good discussion (they even allowed some politics in during quarantine and it stayed pretty civil).

Yeah, but we have a different population here, so there's only so much we can do.

I'll try and be reasonably polite, ... We can do a lot better discussion than this.

Thanks

Davor Firetusk wrote:

I'll try and be reasonably polite, ... We can do a lot better discussion than this.

Thanks

On a personal level, I blanket frown upon any comparison with IRL history to justify a fantasy POV. It amounts to compare a mouse with the use of a cat argument. I largely prefer compare what can be realistically compared in-setup.

On a personal level, I blanket frown upon any comparison with IRL history to justify a fantasy POV. It amounts to compare a mouse with the use of a cat argument. I largely prefer compare what can be realistically compared in-setup.

I generally agree between magic existing and other in setting differences depending solely on historical comparison isn't likely to be super compelling, but I while I take a fairly consistent 'its pretend' stance we should keep that separate from real life, I still have my moments where I want certain things or don't want certain things based on some level of familiarity/ verisimilitude. Numeria and Alkenstar for example really detracted from Golarion for me as an example.

I don’t want to re-ignite any craziness, but the whole topic of elements of player and GM modernity in a fantasy setting that was at least originally inspired by pre-modernity has fascinated me ever since my first high level AD&D magic user built an industrial park back when I was playing fairly regularly in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

For better or worse, fantasy settings such as Golarion are largely based on pre-modern historical experiences and settings. There are the Vikings of the Lands of the Linnorms Kings, ancient Egypt in Osirion, etc. However, we as players and GMs bring values, attitudes, and ways of thinking that would be in many ways incomprehensible to the people of these places. Inevitably, we have this mix of the pre-modern, modern, and post-modern livened up a good-sized dash of magic and a mess of gods, demons, devils, etc. all roaming around. Trying to find a degree of balance is difficult and highly subjective (note Davor’s lack of affection for Alkenstar and Numeria).

I’m not looking to restart a discussion on this topic here. It’s the wrong place for it for one reason. If one wanted to explore these issues, the Lost Omens Campaign Setting forum might be the best place. I just want to give a sense of where I was coming from and to apologize for not adequately framing my original critique of the dialog in the blog post at the top of this forum. I’m afraid this lack of context for my first post may have contributed to the fireworks which followed.

Philippe Lam wrote:

On a personal level, I blanket frown upon any comparison with IRL history to justify a fantasy POV. It amounts to compare a mouse with the use of a cat argument. I largely prefer compare what can be realistically compared in-setup.

I generally agree between magic existing and other in setting differences depending solely on historical comparison isn't likely to be super compelling, but I while I take a fairly consistent 'its pretend' stance we should keep that separate from real life, I still have my moments where I want certain things or don't want certain things based on some level of familiarity/ verisimilitude. Numeria and Alkenstar for example really detracted from Golarion for me as an example.

Ironically, for some of us who grew up reading *really* early sci-fi, Numeria and Alkenstar are both callbacks to familiar sci fi tropes from our childhood.

In fact, one of the earliest D&D rule books I owned had a section on incorporating the wild west (via the rules published in boot hill) and sci-fi (via the rules published in Gammaworld) into your D&D games.

Ironically, for some of us who grew up reading *really* early sci-fi, Numeria and Alkenstar are both callbacks to familiar sci fi tropes from our childhood.

In fact, one of the earliest D&D rule books I owned had a section on incorporating the wild west (via the rules published in boot hill) and sci-fi (via the rules published in Gammaworld) into your D&D games.

For RP purposes it's not a problem. Many might do the same thing so can't blame them, one gets inspirations from where possible.

The yellow flag starts when some players use these tropes are used as in-session arguments over rules or other characters in an often not-so-polite way. Now this is not completely avoidable but that's why I prefer to strictly separate IRL from the game at the best possible.

Removed a couple of posts that verged on personal. Thanks for the last few posts to reframe a discussion and the acknowledgment that a product preview post isn't the correct place for a discussion on personal preferences in the Campaign Setting.

Yep, there are lot of name changes. I suspect that some is because of copyright, because Pathfinder is no longer D&D 3.5, and should not use D&D's proprietary names. Some may be because the devs have rethought a name. Changing Polyglot to Mwangi made the language's name more specific and also more respectful -- suggesting that is not mashed-up mix of languages, but its own language in its own right. I have no idea why they switched Giant to Jotun when Dwarves still speak Dwarven and Elves Elvish, but hey... Jotun is an interesting sounding word. I'll adapt.

Hmm

Jotun is Giant in Norse.

But I have noticed 2e basically has lost most of what was known about Tian Xia and Cameron, and lord help you if you want to make a character from there since it is all uncommon now. But then you have lizard people being renamed something that no one knows how it is supposed to be pronounced (almost as bad as Prince calling himself a symbol because most couldn't pronounce it). Also don't forget how there is no Northern region of Varisia anymore, the region that was primarily of Ulfen decent because now it is a kingdom that just appeared which is ruled by a living Rune Lord....just because? So yes, there has been some definite changes in the lore to Golarion.

Umm not that I'm disagreeing with there being actual lore changes, but what you list there are setting updates for most parts.

Also, iruxi is one of easier fantasy worlds to pronounce so I'm just confused about that. But then again I'm confused why English speaking people don't know how ot pronounce Norgorber

Anyhoo, wasn't it mentioned that Belimarius has been conquering the ulfen populated regions(which I'm still unsure of if you are speaking of same thing since this is first time ever I heard northern varisia had people living there :p I mean I did know land of linnorm kings was north of varisia, but first time I hear there being settlements there, I remember northern varisia being pretty sparsely populated)

Also, "lost most of what known about Casmaron" is weird because only thing we knew about Casmaron was "Vudra and Kelish Empire is there, along with few other random details like Iridian Fold", so how you can lose character options that barely existed in 1e?...

People disagreeing over how words are pronounced isn't anything new. Especially with fantasy words. Also species having actual names rather than [what I look like]-folk is a plus in every way.

Belimarius and her kingdom's return is shown in, surprisingly, Return of the Runelords Adventure Path.

Advancements and retcons are two different things.

Umm not that I'm disagreeing with there being actual lore changes, but what you list there are setting updates for most parts.

Anyhoo, wasn't it mentioned that Belimarius has been conquering the ulfen populated regions(which I'm still unsure of if you are speaking of same thing since this is first time ever I heard northern varisia had people living there :p I mean I did know land of linnorm kings was north of varisia, but first time I hear there being settlements there, I remember northern varisia being pretty sparsely populated)

It was lore in 1e that the Northern corner of Varisia had been settled by, primarily, Ulfens that were sent out from The Land of the Linnorm Kings as punishment (think the connection between England and Australia). So because these things are dealt with only in an AP that came out at the end of 1e, and some of us have very little opportunity to play APs in general, you are going to slam me for it? I was just pointing out how there had been some major changes in the lore from 1e to 2e.

You’re the one complaining there isn’t a northern region of Varisia anymore “just because”.

The changes were also covered in the World Guide.

Jesse Lehto wrote:

Umm not that I'm disagreeing with there being actual lore changes, but what you list there are setting updates for most parts.

Anyhoo, wasn't it mentioned that Belimarius has been conquering the ulfen populated regions(which I'm still unsure of if you are speaking of same thing since this is first time ever I heard northern varisia had people living there :p I mean I did know land of linnorm kings was north of varisia, but first time I hear there being settlements there, I remember northern varisia being pretty sparsely populated)

It was lore in 1e that the Northern corner of Varisia had been settled by, primarily, Ulfens that were sent out from The Land of the Linnorm Kings as punishment (think the connection between England and Australia). So because these things are dealt with only in an AP that came out at the end of 1e, and some of us have very little opportunity to play APs in general, you are going to slam me for it? I was just pointing out how there had been some major changes in the lore from 1e to 2e.

Wait what, where did you get slamming from? Like I wasn't intending to be harsh or mean...

Well anyway, I think its matter of how different people understand words. Like to me "changing lore" means "retcons or retroactively changing lore" rather than "adding lore" or "revealing new lore". There ARE straight up retcons in 2e, but "timeline has progressed and taken aps in account" counts as different thing to me.

But yeah huh neat. Like I said I didn't remember there being much of anything in northern varisia.

People disagreeing over how words are pronounced isn't anything new

Yep. No one knows how “drow” is supposed to be pronounced and Gygax was notorious for refusing to confirm it and seemed to enjoy suggesting at times that one or the other might be right. I recall an argument between two published authors about it and he just watched with a wicked evil grin on his face.

Drow rhymes with bow.

Example: She fired her bow from the bow of the ship.

Drow rhymes with bow.

Example: She fired her bow from the bow of the ship.

I think it would be more entertaining to assert that Drow does not rhymes with *either* bow or bow.

LoL. I assume you were going for the intentional ambiguity as some would pronounce that like longbow, while others like bough or cow. :-D