Help Paizo Celebrate Kingmaker's 10th Anniversary!

Kind of weird for the amount of 1e fans requesting retro-support, I haven't seen any specific response to the only constructive proposal Paizo has returned, namely the possibility of a straight reprint compilation. Kind of feels like it's more about the noise than the outcome. Anyhow, I still think between existing 1e Bestiaries and original 1e AP monster, NPC & skill/kingdom-check stats that are OGL, retro-conversion of the new updated AP won't be that hard, and people can share their work on retro-converting the new additional content, either here on the boards or elsewhere. AFAIK Non-commercial use doesn't even have to worry about avoiding proper names "IP" etc.

While the focus seems to have been on Bestiary/monsters and NPCs, it occured to me that Skill checks and other mechanics interacting with PC stats also need conversion, whether to 5e or 1e, to account for different system assumptions. In case of challenges hinging on 2e-specific mechanics, the paradigm of the challenge may even need to be tweaked to work in other system.

Not quite sure how that fits into the 5E product, which is cast as "Bestiary" to be used alongside 2e AP Hardcover... Including alternate NPC stats isn't out of line, but getting into the AP's environmental/situational skill checks (or kingdom checks etc) doesn't directly fit in a Bestiary format, although it could be another chapter? An "adventure index" giving replacement DCs/mechanics tied to page # references might work? Or just leave it to each system's generic rules, depending on level, situational details, etc? Stuff like Kingdom checks that aren't core part of 1e or 5e would probably need specific treatment, even if given via formula and not specifying every single event DC.

I responded to Erik's question on the Reddit thread, so I saw no reason to repeat it here.

The part of the sentence that catches my interest is still:

Finally, we'll add a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for 5E, developed in conjunction with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing

I imagine Paizo is tapping 5e freelancers or a 3rd Party Publisher that knows 5e to do the actual Bestiary/ conversion rather than trying to update in-house.

But I'm super curious who the "industry leaders" are.

Kobold Press, Green Ronin, and Onyx Path have both done some great 5e work.
Goodman Games is also in the "conversion" business. And Troll Lord is also around. Legendary Games does a lot of PF and has a decent relationship with Paizo, but has done some 5e work.

There's also the new blood. Sasquatch Games was created to be a 5e 3PP. And Nord Games used to release books for both PF1 and 5e.

(I hope it's not Frog God Games for obvious reasons.)

TOZ wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I started out caring about them when they were a 3PP for WotC. Why would now be any different?

If 1e fans are sacrificed on the altar of 2e fans(who do not yet exist), it may change how I feel about the company.

The way I hear it, that happened the moment 2E and the end of 1E content was announced.

TOZ please. Life isn't always a punchline. Stop throwing oil on that fire. People have been investing time and money with Paizo for what now, 11 or 12 years? To just make light of the fans of the game who feel invested in what Paizo's done isn't cool. I get that you're not emotionally invested in 1E but some people are. Be kind.

2E is happening and I've made my bed with it, but there's no need to split fans of the setting in two camps at this point. Plenty of room for everyone here.

I haven't been following this convesation closely enough, but I think we may very well see a split:

1. Seems like a lot of people I've seen posting are vested in PF1 and didn't like PF2 (at least as it was at the start of the PlayTest).

I've got a lot of time and money wrapped up in PF1, so I will stick with PF1 depending a lot on whether issues I had with PF2 were addressed and on how hard it is to convert PF1 to PF2 and, maybe, visa versa.

I don't have the time or money to play more than one rule system, so it will probably be PF1 -- but I will get the core rules and Bestiary for PF2 and check it out with curiosity.

Also, another major factor is that it seems like PF1 will have a lot more material than PF2 for quite some time. I don't think I want to wait for PF2 -- nor put in the work to convert PF1 to PF2, though I am still not clear how hard that is.

2. Some people are vested in PF2. I'm not sure how many that is versus those in PF1. I am very excited to find out. The newest (maybe youngest) members very likely see PF1 as being obsolete -- so they likely won't pick it up.

3. Some will GM and play both. Not sure how many.

4. Some might give up and just go to 5e.

I think this is where we are at this point -- Paizo is probably looking at servicing a fractionated market but we won't know exactly what it looks like till August 1st and some time passes after that.

But what should not be underestimated is how much some people love and care about PF1. Those feelings may just now be surfacing as Aug. 1st approaches. I blogged from the initial PF2 announcement and have only recently come to peace with the issue that PF1 development is coming to a stop -- and only because there's a lot of PF1 material available.

Paizo, I hope, will remain sensitive to the PF1 community when they make compilations of PF1 material and re-release it to the PF2 community. If they make such a compilation available and at a cheaper price -- please at least bundle the PF1 material and give the PF1 community the same price.

I think the success of the crowdfunding campaign is going to be a major factor in those decisions.

Zaister wrote:

Kingmaker for Pathfinder First Edition PDFs are readily available without the need for a crowdfunding.

PDFs for Rise of the Runelords are all available.

Yet, Rise got an anniversary hardcover.

Same with Curse of the Crimson Throne.

I see zero reason why Kingmaker shouldn't get a 1e anniversary hardcover, as that was the addition it was released for.

But, also have a conversion for 2e PF.

Rise of the Runelords was written for 3.5E D&D. The hardcover updated it to Pathfinder rules. This is the case for Crimson Throne as well.

This is pretty common knowledge. Council of Thieves was the first AP to use the Pathfinder rule set.

+1 for being glad to see that Kingmaker will be getting a second development pass. That should make it flow better, foreshadow where necessary, and expand it where logical/intersting (lots of good stuff in the KM sub-forum!).

Suggested extras:

• Pawns.
  
• Maps in hard copy format (both PC-friendly and for the GM).
  
• PF Classic update (possibly just a PDF document?), with suggested NPC/monster changes and taking into account both later PF Classic classes and monsters. It need not come with whole stat blocks; instead, just say something like "NPC X should be Class Y at level Z, with the following archetype and specialization /domains /mystery /bloodline /discipline /element /blessing /spirit /whatever".

I really don't feel like jumping into any sort of edition war, and I do understand why certain decisions were made. However, I do feel mild disappointment that this compilation never saw life during PF Classic.

On the other hand, my top preferences for compilations and second development passes are still Second Darkness, then Legacy of Fire.

(Why is the list formatting not working properly?)

(Why is the list formatting not working properly?)

I wonder if those backslashes have confused things.

^List formatting without slashes of either direction:

• Should have a bullet in front of it (but not run off the left edge or into my avatar icon).
  
• Should have a bullet in front of it also (but again not run off the left edge or into my avatar icon).

If that's what you're talking about, it's been broken for many months.

seconding the development second turn. Some villains were subpar in term of involvement in the story and even in terms of foreshadowing their presence/plans. very good stuff in the subforum!(irovetti king of iron on all)

Well since I'm currently (finally) playing the Adventure thanks to a very kind DM (he just killed my character, I need to be nice :-)), I don't want to be spoiled but...

A) This is a GREAT news.
B) But only if it is 2E - I don't see the point reprinting the existing 1E. And as much as I was involved in 1E from the alpha days, I did a lot of playtesting in 2E and 2E is really really great and deserve a Kingmaker's level campaign.

IMHO.

VERY Interesting and I think I am liking this news for a number of reasons/

I GM a lot of Pathfinder I games on Roll20, and play when I have some extra time (which is usually not much sadly). In my 4 game groups most have shown an interest in PF II but have reservations... Til they see the final product in a few months, My main group I did the most with the playtest and had very mixed results from them, as well as I, LOL

Age of Ash's looks like a good start, not to sure about the new module(Fall of Plaguestone) for it as of yet though. BUT having a beloved PF I AP converted to 2nd Ed and with some extra bells and whistles as to updating and having some content from the good video game into it as well just might making the switch over to PF II a lot easier for my players, and I.

The 5th Ed beast stats doesn't effect us in the least but we think its a good step to test the waters as they said in the twitch stream last Friday and could give them new opportunities they might not have had otherwise.

For me right now it is a wait and see til the CRB for PF II drops so I can dig in and see the final version before I decide to dive right into it and GM any PF II games compared to sticking to PF I.

I've dabbled in Starfinder off and on and as there is a more robust AP line now finally I may also fill any extra time if not running any PF II games with that.

I;ll also quiz all my players ASAP on their take of the new system and will most likely run them something so we all get a first hand experience with it then make decisions on our current campaigns of

Kingmaker, Middle end of mod II (Main group)
War for the Crown, Middle of Module II (2nd Group)
Rise of the Runelords Ann Ed, middle of Module I (Third group)
Tyrants Grasp, 4th group (early middle part of Module I)

So a lot could change, a little or nothing at all, so still overall a wait and see but nice to see Paizo is not just sitting there not doing anything new and different, gotta give them credit for that at least me thinks!!

:)

Tom

Removed some posts and replies. While there are bound to be things about different editions and different games that you either love or do not care for, please remember that these are all subjective points. No one is objectively wrong for wanting to stick with Pathfinder 1E, nor are those who are excited for 2E wrong. People who also enjoy 5E or any other iteration of Dungeon & Dragons are also not objectively wrong. Do not pick fights with each other over your preferences.

Remember we're all here because we love tabletop RPGs, and that is going to take as many different forms and be as variable as there are people playing these games. Don't yuck someone else's yum, allow for other people to have their own preferences. This doesn't mean you can't offer up critiques of a game system or edition, or that you can't express dissatisfaction over something, it just means that on our forums, you need to give other people the grace to have different opinions about editions.

Will there be conversion rules for Eberron? Because if not, I'm never playing 3.5 again and will tell all my friends, and they'll never play again, and then you'll go out of business, and your children will starve, and I will walk by you lying in a pool of your own vomit and misery and spit on you and yell "SEE HERE, ALL YE WHO DO NOT SUPPORT THE ONE TRUE EDITION, THE FATE OF ALL WHO DEFY ME."

But then I'll feel bad, and maybe buy you some coffee and a sandwich and we can talk about why you're too obtuse to appreciate that Eberron is, was, and always will be the pinnacle of gaming.

All Hail Keith Baker!!!

As someone who actually has the original, I'm curious to know if this will include new content, and to what degree. I don't mean updated stats and systems for more modern editions - that goes without saying, under the circumstances - but new flavor, story content, that sort of thing.

In any case, I support this project. Even if I'd rather have a fully updated and improved Second Darkness. ^_^

I would absolutely LOVE to have SD updated. sure it didn't get reviewed well, but it seems pretty important to Golarion lore.

I'm about to run it for my group in a few months.

The biggest issue with Second Darkness is that it has an extremely poor sales record. Last I checked, all six installments were still available, and for $5 a piece no less. That's not exactly "set up a massive rerelease project around" levels of popularity. :(

Jesse Heinig wrote:

Yep, I have the Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne collected editions on my desk right next to the Kingmaker softcovers, but as soon as it said "Pathfinder 2" my interest level went to zero.

Hey Jess...didn't know you were on this forum. LOL (this is Max) Did you try the full playtest for 2E? Our group loved the changes that made it through the process.

Hey Max... yeah, I found leaning into the action economy so heavily just made things more complex than was desirable, and I especially hated the whole critical-hits-and-fails-on-spells mechanic. Overall it just smacks of PF being stuck in the corner: Their market space is "people who liked 3.5e and wanted to keep playing it," but the rise of 5e and the fact that they were still publishing under the old book-a-month model meant that there was no maneuvering room, so they were stuck with the bad choice of running out of things to publish and people to buy them, or the bad choice of alienating a chunk of their core fanbase. (It also doesn't help that their heavy lifters in design are obviously finishers, who are better at refining existing systems than making new systems whole cloth.)

In less than 8 hours we will know more! ;-)

I know what Im getting for an early X-mas gift for myself!

58 minutes to go, guys! ;-)

Looks like the launch timer was pushed back 30 minutes?

At least the counter on Game on when from '-30minutes' to '-50 minutes' recently.

yes, it says -29 minutes now...

8 backers in at $1000.

Looks like they decided to add a Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition add on, to mirror the Kingmaker Bestiary for 5E.

Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition: Does your group prefer to stick with First Edition? We’ve got you covered with the hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition, a 160-page monster and NPC resource that converts the new companions, NPCs, and monsters unlocked by this campaign into old-school Pathfinder First Edition. Play along in the new and updated encounters with this helpful conversion guide featuring back-converted stats for the entire Kingmaker campaign, plus other rules conversions, tips and tricks to run the campaign as smoothly as possible. Not ready to convert to 2E? Already running the campaign with your First Edition group? This add-on book is your ticket to playing Kingmaker in classic style!

It seems they are giving the ability to stay in first edition..
Atleast that is what it says on the campaign site:

https://www.gameontabletop.com/cf194/kingmaker-10th-anniversary.html

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I do have to second this especially with 5E getting in on the action.

Almost pulled the trigger on a Grand Diplomat pledge... but fairly uncertain I could actually get a full group to fly out....

I will put my money where my mouth is as noted above, but I need to get extra cash for the 1e stuff. Give me a day or two, please.

Well, the 1e bestiary for new material and upgrades confirmed huh

Well, I'm in! It looks like there will be 1E compatibility just like there will be for 5E of the other game. The separate bestiaries are described as having all of the necessary rules and information to convert between editions.

Backed at the Spy Master level with the 1E add-on. Here's hoping for Pawns!

I will put my money where my mouth is as noted above, but I need to get extra cash for the 1e stuff. Give me a day or two, please.

You have 15. :D

The goal is $50K.
At 100K an additional stretchgoal will be unlocked.

-$50: COUNSELOR: pdf versions of the Kingmaker campaign hardcover & Companion guide

-$80: MARSHAL: Kingmaker campaign hardcover & pdf

-$100: GENERAL: campaign hardcover & companion guide with slipcase & pdf versions

-$140: SPYMASTER: 24hour early bird special editions of hardcover & companion guide & pdfs

-$250: GUILDMASTER (Retailers only)

STRETCH GOALS/LEVEL UPS:

$100K: PAWNS!!!

$130K: NOBLE MANOR FLIP-MAT MULTIPACK!

$150K: COMPANION GUIDE EXPANSION (Amiri plus 16 pages)!

Hmm... General or Spymaster is the question I need to answer for myself in the next 23 hours. I'll decide which add-ons I'd like, if any, later in the campaign. I'm currently running a campaign right now, and once that's done (and I take a break of an indeterminate length), I plan to run my next campaign in Pathfinder 2E. I was thinking that would be one of the Pathfinder 2E APs, but Kingmaker would be pretty compelling...

We are already at $17K from 106 backers.
It looks like this will get funded in the first hours. :-)

What interest me most, is shipping costs.
I imagine the books will grow in size with time, but what are the estimated shiping costs (roughly) and will there be international hubs?

EDIT: Nevermind, it shows when you select the backer level.
$12.50 for the hardcover & companion book to Germany.

I wonder if this will increase with the book sizes?

Thanks for the Pathfinder Bestiary option.

I like the look of the Kingmaker Pawn Box hidden down in the stretch goals! Hopefully, that unlocks fully.

6670 funded in 2 hours.

I think we´l reach 100K in the first 24 hours.

I find it very odd that the map folio isn’t included. I personally found that essential, with this AP (and it was one of the most popular map folios by a long way).

I hope this was just an oversight and they’ll add that in down the track.

Does anyone know if the print versions of the books will be for sale once they're in the wild, or will PDFs be the only option then?

I am very glad to see the 1e bestiary added. I think that will smooth a good many ruffled feathers.

Question: if you get the 1e bestiary, will it include stats for the companions detailed in the Companion Guide?

I find it very odd that the map folio isn’t included. I personally found that essential, with this AP (and it was one of the most popular map folios by a long way).

I hope this was just an oversight and they’ll add that in down the track.

I totally agree, as the Kingfinder map folio is the first one that sold out and is needed by the players for the hexploration.

I hope this is added as an add-on soon.

Hi Paizo, some further questions for your Crowdfunding FAQs:

- Will the PF1E and D&D5e bestiaries be on-sale in PDF only format when the books are released in 2020?
- Can PDF only versions be added as a separate add-on during the campaign?
(Mostly because I don’t need physical books for three editions for the same campaign but would like the option of purchasing the PDFs separately).
- Will physical copies of the Kingmaker Hex Maps be reprinted? They are an invaluable tool for Kingmaker GMs. Would love these as an add-on.

Does anyone know if the print versions of the books will be for sale once they're in the wild, or will PDFs be the only option then?

I'd say unlikely due to print run costs. There might be room for extras, but the best way to secure a hard copy is to participate in the crowdfunding.

I am very glad to see the 1e bestiary added. I think that will smooth a good many ruffled feathers.

Question: if you get the 1e bestiary, will it include stats for the companions detailed in the Companion Guide?

"Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition, a 160-page monster and NPC resource that converts the new companions, NPCs, and monsters unlocked by this campaign into old-school Pathfinder First Edition."

Fumarole wrote:

Does anyone know if the print versions of the books will be for sale once they're in the wild, or will PDFs be the only option then?

I'd say unlikely due to print run costs. There might be room for extras, but the best way to secure a hard copy is to participate in the crowdfunding.

Nope, Jeff Alvarez answered my question:

Will these books also be available from www.paizo.com or in FLG stores after the backers have received their copies?

Yes, *most* everything from the crowdfunding will be available at both.

Hi Paizo, some further questions for your Crowdfunding FAQs:

- Will the PF1E and D&D5e bestiaries be on-sale in PDF only format when the books are released in 2020?
- Can PDF only versions be added as a separate add-on during the campaign?
(Mostly because I don’t need physical books for three editions for the same campaign but would like the option of purchasing the PDFs separately).
- Will physical copies of the Kingmaker Hex Maps be reprinted? They are an invaluable tool for Kingmaker GMs. Would love these as an add-on.

-Is there a way to get the addons as pdfs only? I'm not interested in physical rewards

Jeff Alvarez wrote:
No, not in the crowdfunding. The PDFs will be available on Paizo.com upon release of the physical products in late 2020.

Well I'm glad to see the 1e conversion guide added to bring PF1e parity to DnD 5e. That being said I wish that there was instead simply a 5e and 1e version of the main hardcover, and not have the conversion guides. I get that the bigger book is more cost effective with a single larger print run, but it's not as customer friendly of an option. I dont expect this wish will come to pass but wanted to share my preference in case there's a way for that to happen.

If there were a 1e fully integrated hardcover, I'd back in a second, but as is with the clunkiness and extra cost of a second book I'm on the fence, leaning against backing.

Does anyone know if the print versions of the books will be for sale once they're in the wild, or will PDFs be the only option then?

All the regular versions of the books should be available at both retail and paizo.com on release in 2020 as well as the PDFs (from paizo.com).

Hi Paizo, some further questions for your Crowdfunding FAQs:

- Will the PF1E and D&D5e bestiaries be on-sale in PDF only format when the books are released in 2020?
- Can PDF only versions be added as a separate add-on during the campaign?
(Mostly because I don’t need physical books for three editions for the same campaign but would like the option of purchasing the PDFs separately).
- Will physical copies of the Kingmaker Hex Maps be reprinted? They are an invaluable tool for Kingmaker GMs. Would love these as an add-on.

Yes, the books and PDFs will be available once the products release in 2020.

No, the PDFs for the 1E and 5E Bestary's are not available as Add-Ons in the campaign.

Yes, those hex maps should be part of the Map Folio and will be available once that product have been unlocked.

Well I'm glad to see the 1e conversion guide added to bring PF1e parity to DnD 5e. That being said I wish that there was instead simply a 5e and 1e version of the main hardcover, and not have the conversion guides. I get that the bigger book is more cost effective with a single larger print run, but it's not as customer friendly of an option. I dont expect this wish will come to pass but wanted to share my preference in case there's a way for that to happen.

If there were a 1e fully integrated hardcover, I'd back in a second, but as is with the clunkiness and extra cost of a second book I'm on the fence, leaning against backing.

Unfortunately the workload of making 3x 576pg books that could grow to as much as 720pg is a massive amount of work and we'd have to harpoon half of our 2020 production schedule to pull them off. We'd also need similar campaigns for each edition's book since the costs to make them are very very high.

That's why we choose to go the Bestiary route. It provides enough of the info to run the adventure without jeopardizing our 2020 release schedule.