The Path Before You

Netopalis wrote:

Well, that's not always so easy, Patrick, given the restrictions on trait selection.

Yes. Yes, it is.

OpinionOrSatire said "there cannot be any compensation for [their faction traits not working anymore]." I say that's completely untrue, because if that were going to be the case, new traits could be selected to replace them. They would be the same traits available during character building, possibly plus new ones that have come out since, with the only modification being the list of faction traits, since a new faction would be in effect.

What restrictions are you envisioning? Do you really think the campaign leadership would say "You get a rebuild, but we're going to make it suck for you"? Or are you theorizing a character build that utterly hinges on a faction trait?

I use Shadow Diplomacy to give me Diplomacy as a class skill. I could take Ease of Faith, but I already have Indomitable Faith, and you can't have two Faith traits. I could take a Religious trait, but I don't know that my character's background would match up with the various gods that give Diplomacy as a class skill. From an RP perspective, I hate to choose a god just because it would give me access to a trait like that.

Other traits require an additional resource purchase just for that one trait. I really hate to do that.

I actually do have a character build that relies on a faction trait to make the entire PC work. He's an Andoran archery-focused bard who gets longbow proficiency from the Hunter's Eye trait, and that's his primary weapon. Losing that trait would seriously screw over that character.

But I also have enough faith in the campaign staff to assume that faction traits for factions that go away will be "grandfathered" in. So if you have the trait now, and the faction go away, I'm just assuming you'll get to keep the trait. And the same would hopefully go for other things like the prestige based rewards from the Field Guide.

Where those grandfathered traits will be published once a new Guide to Organized Play is published without those factions is an entirely different question, which the campaign staff will have to think about.

But as I said, I have faith that the campaign staff won't totally screw over people for no good reason.

I actually do have a character build that relies on a faction trait to make the entire PC work. He's an Andoran archery-focused bard who gets longbow proficiency from the Hunter's Eye trait, and that's his primary weapon. Losing that trait would seriously screw over that character.

But I also have enough faith in the campaign staff to assume that faction traits for factions that go away will be "grandfathered" in. So if you have the trait now, and the faction go away, I'm just assuming you'll get to keep the trait. And the same would hopefully go for other things like the prestige based rewards from the Field Guide.

Where those grandfathered traits will be published once a new Guide to Organized Play is published without those factions is an entirely different question, which the campaign staff will have to think about.

But as I said, I have faith that the campaign staff won't totally screw over people for no good reason.

It was actually explicitly stated a few posts ago that faction traits wouldn't be going away. I was responding to a hypothetical posed by Patrick, which is really a moot issue. Don't know why I bothered, honestly. :P

I use Shadow Diplomacy to give me Diplomacy as a class skill. I could take Ease of Faith, but I already have Indomitable Faith, and you can't have two Faith traits. I could take a Religious trait, but I don't know that my character's background would match up with the various gods that give Diplomacy as a class skill. From an RP perspective, I hate to choose a god just because it would give me access to a trait like that.

Okay, there's some things I want to state at the outset before I get in to this:

1. This is all irrelevant anyway, because campaign leadership said that traits wouldn't be going away.
2. Even if they were going away, "having to choose a new trait that doesn't do exactly the same thing" is not the same thing as a lack of "any compensation." So you're not actually countering my calling shenanigans on the original assertion.

That being said, I do want to address your tangent: Yes, under those hypothetical circumstances, you might have to choose a trait that does something different, but you can easily explain it in character. In your case, the name "Shadow Lodge" no longer carries weight, and therefore no longer gives you an edge in negotiation. However, your new friends in, let's say Cheliax, taught you this neat trick that lets you turn your sword into a flaming sword for a few hits a day. Or whatever!

I wouldn't have a problem with it if that was going to be how it would work. In fact, now that I've thought about it, I'd actually prefer to see that happen. If your faction goes under, your character should change a little.

Right, I realize this whole discussion is academic, as stated above....

But my character, who is a party face, would be taking a 4 point hit to Diplomacy. That is not a small number at my level (5). I sort of built him planning that Diplomacy could be made into a class skill. Is it insurmountable? Of course not. But it's not a problem that I as a player would want to deal with.

But my character, who is a party face, would be taking a 4 point hit to Diplomacy. That is not a small number at my level (5). I sort of built him planning that Diplomacy could be made into a class skill. Is it insurmountable? Of course not. But it's not a problem that I as a player would want to deal with.

3 point hit. Your modifier would go from 5 ranks + 3 class bonus + CHR to 5 ranks + CHR.

Shadow Diplomacy is +1 and it gives it as a class skill. 4 points.

Can you add a Gilmen faction please?

I Concur with Kyle and Chris.

Mark when are you going to make this happen?...

Shadow Diplomacy is +1 and it gives it as a class skill. 4 points.

Ah, fair enough.

Right, I realize this whole discussion is academic, as stated above....

But my character, who is a party face, would be taking a 4 point hit to Diplomacy. That is not a small number at my level (5). I sort of built him planning that Diplomacy could be made into a class skill. Is it insurmountable? Of course not. But it's not a problem that I as a player would want to deal with.

To be honest, Diplomacy is one of the easiest traits to find.

World Traveler for Humans, choose one of three skills, including Diplomacy, as a class skill, and gain a +1 trait bonus to that skill - APG. That's a wash.

Fangwood Diplomat (Nirmathas) - +1 trait bonus and DIplomacy becomes a class skill, ISP.

Freedom Fighter (PotIS) - +2 trait bonus to Diplomacty, Diplomacy becomes a class skill, but at a penalty of -2 when dealing with slavers and those who support the slave trade.

Honeyed Tongue (DEP) - +1 trait bonus and diplomacy becomes a class skill.

Just for a quick sampler.

Acrobatics is more difficult; and that longbow proficiency is more difficult, although Heirloom Weapon (Proficiency) would serve, along with Masterwork Transformation, and adding Adaptive if you need to get it to adjust to a Strength bonus...

[sidetrack]Adaptive is something that both my "real" archery-focused PCs, and, especially, any of my PCs who just carry a composite bow as ranged backup, is high on their acquisition list.[/end sidetrack]

Well my main character, Master Sunaki Hojo, would be inconvenienced if the Lantern Lodge got dissolved because it couldn't pay its creditors. His title is faction specific, and while mechanically it makes sense for him to keep that +2 to initiative, he would still no longer be a Master in character. Oh well he would just need to set his sights on Taldan Nobility.

Well my main character, Master Sunaki Hojo, would be inconvenienced if the Lantern Lodge got dissolved because it couldn't pay its creditors. His title is faction specific, and while mechanically it makes sense for him to keep that +2 to initiative, he would still no longer be a Master in character. Oh well he would just need to set his sights on Taldan Nobility.

Hmmm. Given some of the Taldans he has adventured with, my archer wouldn't mind setting his sights on a few Taldan nobles...

I want a Ratfolk faction!

Mike

Jiggy wrote:

Not telling us which two factions are ailing, eh?

No. That'd be stacking the deck.

Isn't the deck already stacked?

Nearly every GM I've encountered (and a majority of players too) seem to interpret that ANY time you play a pregen OF ANY LEVEL, you MUST play for the Grand Lodge. In fact, it became an argument at the last table in which I participated because the player of a rare Grand Lodge PC was angry that the player of a pregen was allowed to use the faction of his highest lower level PC (i.e. the logical one to soonest receive and activate the Chronicle Sheet), and that meant he wasn't going to have automatic, secretive help in acheiving his faction mission — one for which his character was decidedly ill-suited. This significant majority of PFS members I have encountered doesn't care whether the PC that will get the Chronicle is already defined and of a different faction, or whether the pregen is a standard L1, L4 or L7, or even whether it is one from the NPC Codex. They believe that it's Grand Lodge or don't play! So, for these GMs (and maybe it should be ALL GMs?) any time we take one for the team and play a pregen for party balance, or play at a tier or subtier for which we have no active character we boost the stats for the Grand Lodge!

It has been my experience that the vast majority of the Grand Lodge prestige is coming from this and not real PCs. Sure, other communities may have a different data to noise ratio, but the fact remains that the Grand Lodge is the ONLY faction that has ANY noise!

In deciding the winners and losers of "FACTION CONTRACTION 2013 (TM)" (:P), will this data skew be something that can be eliminated based on data already collected in session reporting, or is the Grand Lodge basically immune due to this rule (whether applied and interpretted correctly or not) due to the inability to remove the skew?

TIA!

Well my main character, Master Sunaki Hojo, would be inconvenienced if the Lantern Lodge got dissolved because it couldn't pay its creditors. His title is faction specific, and while mechanically it makes sense for him to keep that +2 to initiative, he would still no longer be a Master in character. Oh well he would just need to set his sights on Taldan Nobility.

In effect what will probably happen is that the faction(s) and the faction leaders have lost so much clout that they cannot effectively use thier influence to be major players within the society.

I'm sure Amara Li may still be around, she just wont have the influence to task you out, thus the interests of the Lantern Lodge wont be easily met.

Certainly the Grand Lodge benefits from being the default faction, but even if this weren't the case, it would still be fairly safe. Turns out, when you say "everyone in this campaign must be a member of the Pathfinder Society" and then offer a faction that is "being a Pathfinder first and foremost" a lot of people join it.

So I guess you've gotten from me one of the factions that's not at risk of being eliminated. I will not be baited into revealing another. :-D

So I guess you've gotten from me one of the factions that's not at risk of being eliminated. I will not be baited into revealing another. :-D

I got a box of cookies, brownies and a set of Cadbury cream eggs that would like to test that...

Mark Moreland wrote:

So I guess you've gotten from me one of the factions that's not at risk of being eliminated. I will not be baited into revealing another. :-D

I got a box of cookies, brownies and a set of Cadbury cream eggs that would like to test that...

You'll need coffee too. ;-)

Certainly the Grand Lodge benefits from being the default faction, but even if this weren't the case, it would still be fairly safe. Turns out, when you say "everyone in this campaign must be a member of the Pathfinder Society" and then offer a faction that is "being a Pathfinder first and foremost" a lot of people join it.

So I guess you've gotten from me one of the factions that's not at risk of being eliminated. I will not be baited into revealing another. :-D

*dangles some alchemists fire on a sting* Heeeere goblin goblin goblin...

You'll need coffee too. ;-)

Well, I AM currently in Puerto Rico. I could be coaxed into getting some premium coffee to take back.

Mark Moreland wrote:

Certainly the Grand Lodge benefits from being the default faction, but even if this weren't the case, it would still be fairly safe. Turns out, when you say "everyone in this campaign must be a member of the Pathfinder Society" and then offer a faction that is "being a Pathfinder first and foremost" a lot of people join it.

So I guess you've gotten from me one of the factions that's not at risk of being eliminated. I will not be baited into revealing another. :-D

*dangles some alchemists fire on a sting* Heeeere goblin goblin goblin...

Ummm...He's a mite ;)

Well, I doubt it will be Osirion getting cut. If we were, however, we'd make great villains!

I'd be saddened as a player, though letting me play a grippli in PFS would go some way toward cheering me up.

*sniff*

Mark Moreland wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Not telling us which two factions are ailing, eh?

No. That'd be stacking the deck.

Isn't the deck already stacked?

Nearly every GM I've encountered (and a majority of players too) seem to interpret that ANY time you play a pregen OF ANY LEVEL, you MUST play for the Grand Lodge. In fact, it became an argument at the last table in which I participated because the player of a rare Grand Lodge PC was angry that the player of a pregen was allowed to use the faction of his highest lower level PC (i.e. the logical one to soonest receive and activate the Chronicle Sheet), and that meant he wasn't going to have automatic, secretive help in acheiving his faction mission — one for which his character was decidedly ill-suited. This significant majority of PFS members I have encountered doesn't care whether the PC that will get the Chronicle is already defined and of a different faction, or whether the pregen is a standard L1, L4 or L7, or even whether it is one from the NPC Codex. They believe that it's Grand Lodge or don't play! So, for these GMs (and maybe it should be ALL GMs?) any time we take one for the team and play a pregen for party balance, or play at a tier or subtier for which we have no active character we boost the stats for the Grand Lodge!

I think this stems from the Guide to Organized Play.

Character Creation, step 6: Factions

Your character belongs to one of 10 factions (pregenerated characters are assumed to belong to the Grand Lodge faction).

Well, I dunno about the other factions, but if Sczarni gets the axe, it won't really go away. It'll just infiltrate the other factions.

Granted, infiltrating the Silver Crusade will be tricky. Not impossible, just tricky.

:)

-j

Apparently, I'm working hard to keep the Silver Crusade and Taldor from going under. Those just happen to be the characters that have been appropriate for me to play in season 4 scenarios so far.

I'm good with that. I'm actually a little worried about the Silver Crusade, and I really think we need that type of goody two shoes faction, so I hope it survives.

I've got a couple of players who will only play Silver Crusade in Season 4, just so that they can represent. :)

After having written eight faction missions, most of which are--sorry, but IMO this is true--pretty pointless anyway, is it really that hard to slap on two more? Do we really need to discontinue factions that are seeing some action, just because they're not seeing a lot of action?

I'd rather see change that's a little upsetting than change that just simply adds without changing the scene.

Mikaze wrote:

relievededed

Thanks for the clarification. :)

Besides, if the Ruby Prince dies, then we could introduce the Diamond Prince who is ten times more powerful, and way cooler than that sorry red, ruby guy ;-)

Or maybe the Emerald Prince who has been envious ever since his cousin took power.

Or maybe, perhaps ... Purple Reign?

After having written eight faction missions, most of which are--sorry, but IMO this is true--pretty pointless anyway, is it really that hard to slap on two more? Do we really need to discontinue factions that are seeing some action, just because they're not seeing a lot of action?

Who says we'll stop at 2? No one is safe from here on out.

So that'd be a yes, then.

I think it's less about "is it that hard to write X more missions" than "do we have a story in mind that is better served by changing the faction line up". I am all in favor of meaningful storyline, even if it means that one or more of my characters has his faction close its doors.

Michael Brock wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

relievededed

Thanks for the clarification. :)

Besides, if the Ruby Prince dies, then we could introduce the Diamond Prince who is ten times more powerful, and way cooler than that sorry red, ruby guy ;-)

Or maybe the Emerald Prince who has been envious ever since his cousin took power.

Or maybe, perhaps ... Purple Reign?

The Amethyst Adviser.

The Cerulean Courtesan.

The Pearl Politician.

JohnF wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

relievededed

Thanks for the clarification. :)

Besides, if the Ruby Prince dies, then we could introduce the Diamond Prince who is ten times more powerful, and way cooler than that sorry red, ruby guy ;-)

Or maybe the Emerald Prince who has been envious ever since his cousin took power.

Or maybe, perhaps ... Purple Reign?

The Amethyst Adviser.

The Cerulean Courtesan.

The Pearl Politician.

The Purple Pimpernel?

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

JohnF wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

relievededed

Thanks for the clarification. :)

Besides, if the Ruby Prince dies, then we could introduce the Diamond Prince who is ten times more powerful, and way cooler than that sorry red, ruby guy ;-)

Or maybe the Emerald Prince who has been envious ever since his cousin took power.

Or maybe, perhaps ... Purple Reign?

The Amethyst Adviser.

The Cerulean Courtesan.

The Pearl Politician.

The Purple Pimpernel?

No. He must be Scarlet. Unless we go with The Scarlet Squirrel. This I am ok with.

So I guess you've gotten from me one of the factions that's not at risk of being eliminated. I will not be baited into revealing another. :-D

Quick everyone make their diplomacy checks!!

1d20 ⇒ 1

uh oh I just made it worse!

The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

The Purple Pimpernel?

No. He must be Scarlet. Unless we go with The Scarlet Squirrel. This I am ok with.

How about Captain Scarlet?

(Assuming there's anyone here old enough to get the reference. Which, considering the lack of groans after my "Purple Reign" line, may be a questionable assumption.)

TriOmegaZero referred me to here: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5le4j&page=3?The-Path-Before-You#12 1

I'm glad that First Steps is being considered for a rewrite and/ or retirement. I didn't follow this thread all the way through for time reasons. "First Steps" isn't the main focus of this thread, it just happened to get mentioned on page 3 of 5 here.

Please see http://paizo.com/products/btpy8jot/discuss?Pathfinder-Society-Scenario-Intr o-3-First-Steps-Part-III-A-Vision-of-Betrayal#25 and my product review on the other tab, as well as my comments on http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pkzx?Starting-to-GM-for-Pathfinder-Society#25 concerning the "First Steps" line as a whole.

I ask Michael Brock and company consider the First Steps audience, particularly "n00b GMs", that as a 'free' scenario we are likely to do that series first to kick off our GM for PFS career. You need to do a survey, but I do not think it is unreasonable to expect n00b GM's to have a Beginner Box set. Gearing the Scenario towards BBox resources would be a good plan. Using front AND back side to flip-mats you happen to currently publish is a good idea. Anyway, I've hit all the points on the other links. I'm very happy Michael Brock stated plans for First Steps. It badly needs to be redone with consideration for the n00b audience and for n00b *budget*. Suggesting the use of resources out-of-print is just silly. Fix it.

Paizo can do better, and they should.