Paizo Publishing's 10th Anniversary Retrospective—Year 5 (2007)

I found it interesting to browse that thread. I wasnt around at the time and I'd always assumed that the reason Paizo chose to stick with 3.5 instead of 4E was because they didnt like the new game. It sounds like they hadnt even seen it by the time it got time to make a choice.

Wizards never did provide us with a special preview, so the first time we really saw 4E was when it was released. But they *had* released some information publicly, and Jason Bulmahn was at the D&D Expo where they revealed quite a lot. We held out on making our decision until after that con, so we knew (at least in broad strokes) that it wasn't the game system we were looking for.

I wonder if the delays and vacillations at the time were indicative of some kind of power struggle at WoTC regarding which way to go with issues regarding the OGL/3PP support for 4E.

That's no secret—Scott Rouse has said as much publicly. I believe that he and one or two other people at Wizards were campaigning hard to make the 4E license as valuable to third-party publishers as the OGL, but there were just too many people there that failed to understand the importance of it.

Did I see James mumble something about a stand alone megadungeon product?

WOOT!

I've been here since the magazine days, the emotional transition to Pathfinder, the horrors of the 'edition wars', and all the gaming goodness along the way. It's been an awesome ride and I'm looking forward to many years of awesome Paizo gaming still to come. Charter subscriber for life.

4E had it's own Adventure Path in the Dungeon "magazine". It was titled "Scales of War".

The fact that you never heard of it is an accurate testimony to the impact it made.

They also released a 9-part series of delve-style adventures taking characters from 1st-30th level (starting with Keep on the Shadowfell and ending with Prince of Undeath), but as far as I can recall this series didn't have an overarching title of its own (much like the 3.0 8-part Ashardalon series of adventures), so I'm not sure it could be called an AP as such.

***

Back to the real topic at hand:

I discovered Paizo just before the start of the Age of Worms AP, and bought every Dungeon issue afterwards. It was the first time I realized that published adventures could be really, really good (and they were certainly much better than anything I dreamed up at the time).

When the discontinuation of Dungeon was announced, I too was very disappointed. However, that disappointment vanished quickly when my FLGS decided to take the Pathfinder APs on board, and I have bought every single AP issue since then as well.

I absolutely love the Paizo style of adventures, as well as their world lore and monster lore :)

Steve Geddes wrote:

I wonder if the delays and vacillations at the time were indicative of some kind of power struggle at WoTC regarding which way to go with issues regarding the OGL/3PP support for 4E.

That's no secret—Scott Rouse has said as much publicly. I believe that he and one or two other people at Wizards were campaigning hard to make the 4E license as valuable to third-party publishers as the OGL, but there were just too many people there that failed to understand the importance of it.

Ah, well there we go - I'm about four years behind the times as per usual. :p

Thanks, Vic.

The idea of the Adventure Path was a bit of an evolution; it's kind of hard to say exactly who is responsible for the concept—after all.

We generally credit the point when the linked adventure concept firmly became the Adventure Path to Chris Thomasson (now Chris Youngs), who began work on what would become The Shackled City shortly before Paizo took over the magazines.

I understand where you are coming from Vic, but from the outside? It's a different perspective entirely and it makes it much easier to see.

In all honesty, it's not hard at all. The first Adventure Path of closely linked adventures with an over-arcing epic plot leading through each of the adventures, moving the characters from a low level start towards a pre-configured high-level conclusion was 1st Edition's DragonLance. And DragonLance changed the business of AD&D in its day and made a ton of dough, too.

You could say GDQ1-7 was the first AP, but that wouldn't really be true - and for the same reason that Shackled City wasn't really an AP, either. Gygax didn't really know where his tale was headed when he was writing that series. Moreover, the main difference in Gygax's adventures in how he wrote them was that there was a very small amount of narrative that went with his adventures. In the end, this meant that there just was not enough of a published coherent story to be as useful as they could be. If the DM created the narrative alongside the module material on his own -- then yes, it could be extremely successful. If he didn't? It could be (and usually was) iffy to outright awful. Usually, the DM just wasn't up to the task that Gygax had left for him or her.

That's where Tracy Hickman, Doug Niles and the rest of the Dragonlance design team broke real ground. Not coincidentally, the Dragonlance design team was about as big as Paizo's editorial AP design team is to this day, too.

When you go back to Shackled City, you don't really get an AP as Paizo does it now. Instead, you get a series of linked adventures where the author of each installment had no idea of where the story was ultimately going to go after that author was done with it (though he did know where it had been). It was an AP where the missing outline's photo was on the proverbial milk carton. In the result, the product felt in its early stages almost like a collaborative internet short story written through successive forum posts. That's because there was no real outline that plotted out Shackled City's story from the outset.

With Age of Worms, (the first REAL Paizo AP) all that changed and the outline was returned into the mix. You were back to the Dragonlance design premise and the Paizo AP was truly reborn. The difference was that you guys had enough sense with Age of Worms not to let the narrative element that ultimately destroyed DragonLance overwhelm the control of the players within the AP.

Not enough rail-road versus too much rail-road. It's an extremely hard balance to find. It's so hard, after seven years plus experience with it, you can still get it wrong. That doesn't reflect poorly on Paizo so much that it reflects on how difficult it is to do well. I am sure there is more to it than that, but I think that's one of the big reasons why James Jacobs feels they are so hard to develop.

If you look at all of Paizo's APs, from the Dungeon days forward in time to the present, it is when the careful balance in the narrative control becomes either too weak (Carrion Crown and to a lesser extent, the final chapter of Kingmaker) or too heavy-handed (Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire) where that particular AP has ultimately faltered and stumbled somewhat.

In every other case where you've more or less struck the right balance, those APs have essentially been warmly received on that front. Any other complaint concerning a particular aspect of a given AP relates to some other aspect of its design - other than the very difficult story/narrative control arc.

That's no secret—Scott Rouse has said as much publicly. I believe that he and one or two other people at Wizards were campaigning hard to make the 4E license as valuable to third-party publishers as the OGL, but there were just too many people there that failed to understand the importance of it.

Pretty sure Linae Foster was a big supporter as well. Least I think I got the name right. I just remember when she was laid off, leaving Scott as pretty much the last publicly outspoken person in support of it.

Lukas Klausner (Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber) Yesterday, 02:40 PM

Yay, I'm one of the 1075. :)

:)

This blog answers a question I've had for a long, long time! The magic number is 1075! I had been guessing it was something like a thousand, but it was really just an order of magnitude guess.

I love these, Lisa. It feels a lot like "I, Jedi" to me, where it is a familiar story that I've read (or in this case, lived through) before, but now with deeper insight into what was really happening.

Nick Logue returned to Sharn in Dungeon 150, with 'Quoth the Raven', not Scuttlecove. And while my knee jerk reaction would be to lament even a potential for less Scuttlecove in the world, Quoth the Raven is so fantastic a sequel to his incredible 'Chimes at Midnight' that I can't be upset.

To Lisa and all the amazing staff at Paizo,

When, out of the blue, I first found out that Paizo was taking over the subscriptions, I was dubious at first, not because I thought you couldn't do it, but because I hadn't heard of you and internet spoofing was a growing concern. My subscriptions were hit and miss on arrival (magazines via APO are just that way). Without any reason to truly be doubtful, I went ahead and renewed; the option to subscribe online was fantastic since mail gets lost around my house.

You've done an amazing job and the end of Dragon and Dungeon as a regular feature in my life was a loss. With the advent of AP, I am glad to be one of the charter members (even if it's not reflected in my tag). I haven't been the most active in gaming and the site, but I've watched the site grow over the years. I am certainly glad to have stuck with Paizo.

I had just decided to bring gaming back into my life as a regular feature and went on a massive spending spree buying a lot of used books on Amazon when Wizards posted a big notice on their site stating 4dventure. #*(&^$%! Having just purchased what is probably one of the most eclectic collections of RPG books, I wasn't interested in moving on with 4E. I was glad when you moved past 3.5 without ditching it. I did pre-order the 4E set from you to take full advantage of you're one time discount and made full use of it, though I probably could have done better.

Reading the history (and looking forward to the rest) has been an eye-opener and I'm glad to have supported Paizo in my own small way. I'm grateful that you didn't give up when things looked the darkest.

I now understand why you haven't published a replacement magazine. I was ecstatic when Wayfider 1 came out and thought you had finally picked up the magazine reigns, but alas, this was not to be. Disappointing, but understandable. It looks like you're supporting Wayfinder as a fanzine. I think that's a great idea, maybe those of us who aren't able to win RPG Superstar can still get our ideas shared in virtual print. I believe it will add a lot to the community.

I've been happy with Paizo and the products you've put out over the years (and don't plan to ever lose the Charter Member tag), keep up the good work. Strike that, keep up the excellent work!

Failthfully yours,
Sean

P.S. When can we load up our own avatars?

Nick Logue returned to Sharn in Dungeon 150, with 'Quoth the Raven', not Scuttlecove. And while my knee jerk reaction would be to lament even a potential for less Scuttlecove in the world, Quoth the Raven is so fantastic a sequel to his incredible 'Chimes at Midnight' that I can't be upset.

I wasn't implying he returned to Scuttlecove in 150, but rather in one of the last year's issues. And thanks for the "I, Jedi" praise, as I love that book!

Lisa

P.S. When can we load up our own avatars?

I heard to be able to upload your own avatar you have to. Do the Drunken, Naked, Beer Belly Dance. Video tape it first or you will have to do it again, then either email the file to Lisa or send a disk to Paizo in care of Lisa. Once she has vetted your rendition of the Drunken, Naked, Beer Belly Dance, your account will be updated. Hope that helps. :)

Corbain wrote:

P.S. When can we load up our own avatars?

I heard to be able to upload your own avatar you have to. Do the Drunken, Naked, Beer Belly Dance. Video tape it first or you will have to do it again, then either email the file to Lisa or send a disk to Paizo in care of Lisa. Once she has vetted your rendition of the Drunken, Naked, Beer Belly Dance, your account will be updated. Hope that helps. :)

Trust her, she is a succubus.

-- david
papa.DRB

One of the proud 1075! :)

I really liked where Paizo had taken Dungeon, though some of the Dragon issues were hit or miss for me. So when they gave me the option to change the rest of my subscriptions into Adventure Paths, I jumped at the chance. I think I only received 1 or 2 free, but I was hooked! The title on the back of Burnt Offerings was what we got me: "We be goblins! You be food!" I couldn't wait to see what Paizo was going to do next!

I do tend to lurk and not post much, but I do want to thank Lisa, Vic, both James, Wes, and all of the wonderful Paizo team for everything you do for the fans. I have become seriously addicted to Pathfinder!

Maybe you could convert CoCT to Pathfinder for the 10th anniversary of the adventure paths?... <hopeful>

Kain Darkwind wrote:

Nick Logue returned to Sharn in Dungeon 150, with 'Quoth the Raven', not Scuttlecove. And while my knee jerk reaction would be to lament even a potential for less Scuttlecove in the world, Quoth the Raven is so fantastic a sequel to his incredible 'Chimes at Midnight' that I can't be upset.

I wasn't implying he returned to Scuttlecove in 150, but rather in one of the last year's issues. And thanks for the "I, Jeci" praise, as I love that book!

Lisa

Going way off topic.

Off topic FTW! :-)

My question is, why haven't I read this book yet? (looks at books database) What? I don't have it? *boggle*

Well, now I certainly know what to do with that Amazon gift card I got for my birthday.

However, back on topic.

I'm with Steel Wind. I still get horrific nerdrage whenever I think too long about what happened with Dungeon and The Dragon. And while I'm endlessly thrilled with what Paizo has done with the Adventure Paths and with what Wolfgang has done with Kobold Quarterly, yet there will always be a feeling that there's something missing - there's still nothing that feels quite the same as those two magazines.

Furthermore, I now think that we erred back in 2008 when the decision was made to transition our convention campaign from 3.5e to 4e (we ended up having to retire the long-running campaign back in 2010). It always makes me wonder if it would have remained alive had we instead gone with Pathfinder :/

I'm still annoyed that I only discovered Pathfinder a year ago. I'd been a subscriber to Dragon from around issue forty-something (and I'd picked up the earlier issues to complete the set), and to Dungeon from issue #1. I'd also been playing in and/or running one or other of a loosely-linked group of tabletop games since shortly after the original AD&D books hit the stores. But in the mid-90s my job moved from the Boston area to Silicon Valley, and I never managed to find a compatible long-term gaming group out here. I wasn't particularly impressed with what I saw of AD&D 3.0, so I let both subscriptions lapse somewhere around 2001. When 3.5 came along I took another look, but didn't see enough to tempt me back.

Now, my walls are poster maps, and my shelves have more Pathfinder than anything else...

Same here. Like everyone, I need more shelf space, but I also need more *wall* space, because, if I could, I'd wallpaper the entire house with maps!

I converted my Dungeon sub to the AP, never even thinking about it because back then I had seen how Paizo had rescued Dungeon Magazine.

Also the "Paizo undecided" thread is highly interesting 5 years later when almost everything came true...

Huh and that was the only post Mistwell ever made. Guess he was the one that faded away instead. :)

Only on this plane. [Sadly, many would say] Mistwell survives on other message boards I visit (and The Mistophecy, which was cross-posted to those boards at the time, is still remembered and occasionally quoted there.)

Part the first:

After listening to my wife rant out loud for minutes on end about the magazine cancellations I said “Well, we have about 3-4 months of our sub left, and we can convert it to their new thing Pathfinder. It’s supposed to be like both Dungeon and Dragon rolled into one. “ My wife: *sniff*”OK…”

Part the second:

In the ‘Paizo is still undecided’ thread, which I read wide-eyed and hit refresh throughout the workday to follow, I finally posted “Enough is enough. You ask our opinion? If you stick with 3.5 I will make all future gaming purchases through your store. You’ll have earned my eternal loyalty.” That has stuck to this day.

Part the third:

My players: “So you don’t want to even try 4th edition?” Me: “Not at all. Now, you all have your characters ready? Good. Let me tell you about your home town of Sandpoint…”

No matter how that 1075 number may dip over the years for whatever reason, I’ll gladly remain one, because while I’m aware of my loyalty to Paizo…my players and I directly benefit from their loyalty to us and the game we love.

Only on this plane. [Sadly, many would say] Mistwell survives on other message boards I visit (and The Mistophecy, which was cross-posted to those boards at the time, is still remembered and occasionally quoted there.)

I still chuckle and shake my head anytime I remember his "Tell us your print run!" thread at ENWorld when it was announced that Pathfinder outsold 4E. Oy.

Vic Wertz wrote:

That's no secret—Scott Rouse has said as much publicly. I believe that he and one or two other people at Wizards were campaigning hard to make the 4E license as valuable to third-party publishers as the OGL, but there were just too many people there that failed to understand the importance of it.

Pretty sure Linae Foster was a big supporter as well. Least I think I got the name right. I just remember when she was laid off, leaving Scott as pretty much the last publicly outspoken person in support of it.

You are correct.

Part the first:

After listening to my wife rant out loud for minutes on end about the magazine cancellations I said “Well, we have about 3-4 months of our sub left, and we can convert it to their new thing Pathfinder. It’s supposed to be like both Dungeon and Dragon rolled into one. “ My wife: *sniff*”OK…”

Part the second:

In the ‘Paizo is still undecided’ thread, which I read wide-eyed and hit refresh throughout the workday to follow, I finally posted “Enough is enough. You ask our opinion? If you stick with 3.5 I will make all future gaming purchases through your store. You’ll have earned my eternal loyalty.” That has stuck to this day.

Part the third:

My players: “So you don’t want to even try 4th edition?” Me: “Not at all. Now, you all have your characters ready? Good. Let me tell you about your home town of Sandpoint…”

No matter how that 1075 number may dip over the years for whatever reason, I’ll gladly remain one, because while I’m aware of my loyalty to Paizo…my players and I directly benefit from their loyalty to us and the game we love.

Love this post. While our stories are different, the message is identical.

Loyalty is very much a key word for many Paizo fans, I reckon. Paizo have shown us time and time again that they have us covered by continually producing top-quality products and keeping a uniquely transparent relationship with their customers. That kind of dedication to their fans and to the products they work with every day creates an incredibly loyal fanbase. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it in my years and I'm very proud to have been along for the ride since before the magazines died.

Loyalty is very much a key word for many Paizo fans, I reckon. Paizo have shown us time and time again that they have us covered by continually producing top-quality products and keeping a uniquely transparent relationship with their customers. That kind of dedication to their fans and to the products they work with every day creates an incredibly loyal fanbase. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it in my years and I'm very proud to have been along for the ride since before the magazines died.

Yes. The OSR movement talk about a "golden age" in gaming. But I think today is the best time to be gaming: not only do we have access to all the editions, young and old, but the flagship RPG is now run by a company that maintains a consistent track record and a great relationship with the fans.

2007 was a trying time for Paizo. However, I think by being true to themselves and their customers, Paizo ultimately prospered.

I would like Lisa Stevens to make sure that some business professors get to see these articles as they show good case studies in how to overcome challenges. I guess this shows that in business, as in life, character counts.

I never had any doubts after the Dragon and Dungeon licenses were pulled that I would be subscribing to Pathfinder (as you can see, I still am). Once I read that first volume, describing Karzoug, Thassilon, and Sin Magic, I was hooked. I can't wait to see what Shattered Star has in store for us!

2007 was a trying time for Paizo. However, I think by being true to themselves and their customers, Paizo ultimately prospered.

I would like Lisa Stevens to make sure that some business professors get to see these articles as they show good case studies in how to overcome challenges. I guess this shows that in business, as in life, character counts.

I would hope a case study (well, from the outside, anyway) would be telling -- you do NOT need to screw your customer base and/or marginalize your product to make a profit, and at the same time you can treat your people like, you know, people, instead of merely as numbers on a board room Powerpoint presentation.

From everything I have seen, Paizo seems to be exactly the sort of company I want to succeed, and after which I would want to model any business I might consider founding.

One of the 1,075. My list of subscriptions ebbs and flows (right now it's at an all-time low of just the AP, sadly, but it'll go back up soon I'm sure!) but I'll drop by AP sub only when it is a choice between eating or reading -- and then I'll go hungry for a bit to see if it's doable! I can't remember how many issues I got for "free", but I want to say four. By that time I was hooked. Thanks for all you do, Paizo!

From everything I have seen, Paizo seems to be exactly the sort of company I want to succeed, and after which I would want to model any business I might consider founding.

From my experience working at various software start ups, it seems that one of many issues with modern companies is that they hire someone to run the place or be president or CEO for a couple of years. That person isn't at all invested in the company, and knows that they are going to sail away within a year or two, giving them strong motivation to maximize short term profits, while, in most cases I've experienced, utterly crippling the ability of the company to function in the long-term. It's all 'take the money and run!' and 'golden parachute, ftw!'

If the company bursts into flames, falls over and sinks into the swamp six months after they've sailed off to their next six figure temp job, it's just something funny going on in the rearview mirror, and not something that's going to slow down their forward trajectory.

The same problem can occur when your company is bought out, and the people whose lives are entwined with the company and it's success are now answering to a bunch of people far away who don't really 'get' your product or it's niche, and care only about some numbers on a balance sheet. Numbers aren't good enough? Mandate from on high to 'slash personnel across the board, X% from each department budget!' no matter how badly this might cripple the capability of the company to bring in revenue or fulfill sales, and, oh yeah, slaughters the morale of the survivors...

Lisa seems to intend this company to be her bread and butter for many years to come, and so seems to be avoiding short-term windfall solutions, and striving to build something that can endure for decades (and support her retirement!).

My Dragon and Dungeon subscriptions actually ran out with what ended up being the final print issues of both magazines, so I never actually got a print copy of either as replacements for remaining Dragon/Dungeon subscriptions.

And I seriously regret not immediately getting a Pathfinder AP subscription and missing out on that cool title. I eventually got a cool title, but it took a little while longer. :) But at the time I'd just gotten out of grad school and my first job was a contract R&D position, and it only ran a year, so around the time the magazines ended, I was about to not have a job anymore and I was preemptively cutting expenses. Bummer.

On top of it all, I'd just managed to squirm, pester, and slush-pile bomb my way into published RPG writing (it took about three years of that). A few issues of Dragon, and the final issues of both it and Dungeon. And then boom, my foot in the door of the industry gets shut down and there's this new, strange Pathfinder thing going on. I wanted to cry, and I didn't even get much of a look at the earliest Pathfinder stuff till the next GenCon rolled around. I think Wes Schneider said something along the lines of "Why haven't we gotten you to do something for Pathfinder for us yet?" :D

And now, while I considered it horrific, out of nowhere, and my chances of being published again being next to nothing, what it led into with Paizo is probably the coolest thing to happen in RPGs since I've been playing them. :)

On top of it all, I'd just managed to squirm, pester, and slush-pile bomb my way into published RPG writing (it took about three years of that).

Best feeling in the world, isn't it? No matter how obscure it is :)

thunderspirit wrote:

From everything I have seen, Paizo seems to be exactly the sort of company I want to succeed, and after which I would want to model any business I might consider founding.

From my experience working at various software start ups, it seems that one of many issues with modern companies is that they hire someone to run the place or be president or CEO for a couple of years. That person isn't at all invested in the company, and knows that they are going to sail away within a year or two, giving them strong motivation to maximize short term profits, while, in most cases I've experienced, utterly crippling the ability of the company to function in the long-term. It's all 'take the money and run!' and 'golden parachute, ftw!'

If the company bursts into flames, falls over and sinks into the swamp six months after they've sailed off to their next six figure temp job, it's just something funny going on in the rearview mirror, and not something that's going to slow down their forward trajectory.

The same problem can occur when your company is bought out, and the people whose lives are entwined with the company and it's success are now answering to a bunch of people far away who don't really 'get' your product or it's niche, and care only about some numbers on a balance sheet. Numbers aren't good enough? Mandate from on high to 'slash personnel across the board, X% from each department budget!' no matter how badly this might cripple the capability of the company to bring in revenue or fulfill sales, and, oh yeah, slaughters the morale of the survivors...

Lisa seems to intend this company to be her bread and butter for many years to come, and so seems to be avoiding short-term windfall solutions, and striving to build something that can endure for decades (and support her retirement!).

Great post. I think you sum up a big factor as to why Paizo is what it is. And of course Lisa's commitment to the hobby has attracted and won the commitment of others of like mind.

The Paizo is Undecided thread was amazing to read through.

Anyone have a link to the initial Pathfinder RPG announcement thread? I'd love to continue the walk through board history. Or any other historic threads in the same ballpark? This is an fantastic journey.

Thanks!

Since some of us are doing some old thread-shopping, I thought this thread from ENWorld reacting to the announcement of ending Dungeon and Dragon might interest some folks.

Many testimonials there, about how important the magazines were to them. Feeling like they were "punched in the gut" is a common theme.

Someone named Winterthorn said, "Dare I hope that a phoenix arises from this fire? I guess we'll have to wait..."

Hehe.

And now, while I considered it horrific, out of nowhere, and my chances of being published again being next to nothing, what it led into with Paizo is probably the coolest thing to happen in RPGs since I've been playing them. :)

It's also cool from the perspective of folks going "Wait, Shemeshka the freakin' Marauder is writing Pathfinder books now? Specifically planar-related material?!" :)

Set wrote:

thunderspirit wrote:

From everything I have seen, Paizo seems to be exactly the sort of company I want to succeed, and after which I would want to model any business I might consider founding.

From my experience working at various software start ups, it seems that one of many issues with modern companies is that they hire someone to run the place or be president or CEO for a couple of years. That person isn't at all invested in the company, and knows that they are going to sail away within a year or two, giving them strong motivation to maximize short term profits, while, in most cases I've experienced, utterly crippling the ability of the company to function in the long-term. It's all 'take the money and run!' and 'golden parachute, ftw!'

If the company bursts into flames, falls over and sinks into the swamp six months after they've sailed off to their next six figure temp job, it's just something funny going on in the rearview mirror, and not something that's going to slow down their forward trajectory.

The same problem can occur when your company is bought out, and the people whose lives are entwined with the company and it's success are now answering to a bunch of people far away who don't really 'get' your product or it's niche, and care only about some numbers on a balance sheet. Numbers aren't good enough? Mandate from on high to 'slash personnel across the board, X% from each department budget!' no matter how badly this might cripple the capability of the company to bring in revenue or fulfill sales, and, oh yeah, slaughters the morale of the survivors...

Lisa seems to intend this company to be her bread and butter for many years to come, and so seems to be avoiding short-term windfall solutions, and striving to build something that can endure for decades (and support her retirement!).

Great post. I think you sum up a big factor as to why Paizo is what it is. And of course Lisa's commitment to the hobby has attracted and won the commitment of...

Yep. It's the people that make a great company work.

And one thing that really clicked with me when I hit the boards years back was that Paizo comes across as "a bunch of gamers" first and a company second for most folks. It's a precious feeling to have with a game company. :)

I thought the first part of this post in the ENWorld link posted above was pretty humorous: prediction of Pathfinder's failure.

I thought the first part of this post in the ENWorld link posted above was pretty humorous: prediction of Pathfinder's failure.

Internet prognosticators say the darndest things.

I thought the first part of this post in the ENWorld link posted above was pretty humorous: prediction of Pathfinder's failure.

Oh dear. How many of those predictions ended up wrong? And sure, RPGs have made a move towards going online, as with virtual tabletops. He was just wrong about which companies would eventually do it. :)

Oh, and the signature that links to D&D Online... and brings up nothing. Heh.

I love reading these, plus I love reading these Paizo retrospectives. It's like reading a gripping novel where you know who wins in the end.

Joshua Frost in that thread reminds me how Paizo have always been really effective at communicating with us fans.

I stopped reading a page ago, thought this thread had petered out...

William Ronald wrote:

2007 was a trying time for Paizo. However, I think by being true to themselves and their customers, Paizo ultimately prospered.

I would like Lisa Stevens to make sure that some business professors get to see these articles as they show good case studies in how to overcome challenges. I guess this shows that in business, as in life, character counts.

I would hope a case study (well, from the outside, anyway) would be telling -- you do NOT need to screw your customer base and/or marginalize your product to make a profit, and at the same time you can treat your people like, you know, people, instead of merely as numbers on a board room Powerpoint presentation.

From everything I have seen, Paizo seems to be exactly the sort of company I want to succeed, and after which I would want to model any business I might consider founding.

My sentiments exactly. One could print all the Auntie Lisa's Story Hour posts and bind 'em as a text book on "How to Run Your Business". I can't say enough good things about how Paizo conducts itself. I'll highlight just two points:

1. Everything is important: From top-level marketing decisions down to every last label stuck on outgoing shipments, and the customer service to back it all up.

2. Turn Adversity into Opportunity. Paizo has made this a habit! Every time something "bad" happens in the RPG industry, Lisa & crew turn it to their advantage.

I chose these two because they are synergistic. The "Huge Gamble of 2007" paid off because the company was firing on all cylinders (and still is).

And, let's not forget just how tough the RPG industry really is. From a strict "balance sheet analysis", one would have to be crazy to even attempt what these folks have become masters at.

I can't remember exactly how I chanced upon the Paizo message boards, i was surfing the net on my lunch break one nightshift, when Pathfinder was being announced.

The combination of adventure and supporting material in one book that combined into a complete campign but was cheaply priced ( i'm a brit and the exchange rate was in our favour then) made me subscribe and I haven't been let down since. Which is why I will keep my tag as a charter subscriber as long as I'm able.

I thought the first part of this post in the ENWorld link posted above was pretty humorous: prediction of Pathfinder's failure.

It's definitely one of those "consider the source" moments.

And to the 44 book PF conversion guy... wow. I thought my 7 PF book conversion was pretty impressive...

I had picked up the SCAP hardcover the year before and was regularly checking the site for word of an AoW or ST book. I was very excited to see the Pathfinder announcement and am proud to be one of the 1,075.

HangarFlying wrote:

I thought the first part of this post in the ENWorld link posted above was pretty humorous: prediction of Pathfinder's failure.

It's definitely one of those "consider the source" moments.

The haters and doomsayers are still out there. I was on another messageboard just yesterday where folks were talking about this blog and predicting the doom of Paizo from 5e and the failure of the Pathfinder MMO amongst other things.

My favorite moment was when they called Paizo a great marketing company but basically said that we don't know anything about making great gaming products. Well, that must be one hell of a marketing plan! Erik and I should get into the Hall of Marketing Fame for the job we are doing! I can't believe all the people who are duped by our marketing plan into buying our inferior products. We must be frickin' marketing geniuses! :)

-Lisa

I am (and for the past 5 years have been) running Savage Tide. In the process of speeding up the campaign, I'm reviewing the last adventures in that AP as well as reading the editorials. It sure brings back memories. Reading how you approached saying good-bye to the magazines that more or less defined paizo for the past 5 years must have been traumatic. you guys were (and still are) a class act!

Arnwyn wrote:

HangarFlying wrote:

I thought the first part of this post in the ENWorld link posted above was pretty humorous: prediction of Pathfinder's failure.

It's definitely one of those "consider the source" moments.

The haters and doomsayers are still out there. I was on another messageboard just yesterday where folks were talking about this blog and predicting the doom of Paizo from 5e and the failure of the Pathfinder MMO amongst other things.

My favorite moment was when they called Paizo a great marketing company but basically said that we don't know anything about making great gaming products. Well, that must be one hell of a marketing plan! Erik and I should get into the Hall of Marketing Fame for the job we are doing! I can't believe all the people who are duped by our marketing plan into buying our inferior products. We must be frickin' marketing geniuses! :)

-Lisa

Having been on those kinds of sites, they would agree. We're all idiots for liking Pathfinder. Clearly their homebrews written on napkins from McDonalds (can't afford Arby's napkins) are twenty times as brilliant as anything Jason, or heaven forbid, Sean, ever thought of in their wildest dreams.

Maybe you should offer to market their product for a modest $500,000 fee and see if there are any takers.

My favorite moment was when they called Paizo a great marketing company but basically said that we don't know anything about making great gaming products. Well, that must be one hell of a marketing plan! Erik and I should get into the Hall of Marketing Fame for the job we are doing! I can't believe all the people who are duped by our marketing plan into buying our inferior products. We must be frickin' marketing geniuses! :)

-Lisa

Let me sincerely say that I for one am very happy I've been duped by your evil marketting plan. Thanks. :)

Arnwyn wrote:

HangarFlying wrote:

I thought the first part of this post in the ENWorld link posted above was pretty humorous: prediction of Pathfinder's failure.

It's definitely one of those "consider the source" moments.

The haters and doomsayers are still out there. I was on another messageboard just yesterday where folks were talking about this blog and predicting the doom of Paizo from 5e and the failure of the Pathfinder MMO amongst other things.

My favorite moment was when they called Paizo a great marketing company but basically said that we don't know anything about making great gaming products. Well, that must be one hell of a marketing plan! Erik and I should get into the Hall of Marketing Fame for the job we are doing! I can't believe all the people who are duped by our marketing plan into buying our inferior products. We must be frickin' marketing geniuses! :)

-Lisa

Dont suppose you have a link? (Or if you rather just wouldent link fair enough)

One of the more creative curses that can be tossed at your enemies:

May you live in interesting times.

Paizo has lived through these interesting times. 2007 and 2008 were very interesting. It takes a special talent to take a curse of that magnitude and twist it into the level of success Paizo has earned.