War of Immortals: Old Friends and New Faces

Monday, September 09, 2024

Welcome! I’m Michael Sayre, the Director of Rules & Lore here at Paizo, and I’m here to talk about some of the fun and exciting stuff we’ve got coming for you in Pathfinder War of Immortals! Specifically, I’m going to talk to you about some of the new character content we’ve got coming your way.

Class archetypes have been something that have existed, at least in theory, since the beginning of Pathfinder Second Edition. These are a type of archetype that is taken at 1st level, requires you to take a specific 2nd-level feat, and often trades out some specific portion of your class features (whether adding or removing a class feature entirely, requiring you to take a specific version of a class feature, or some similar adjustment). War of Immortals introduces a new set of class archetypes to the game, so let’s dive into talking about those!


Art by Kendal Gates. The iconic avenger, Zadim.

The avenger Zadim. Art by Kendal Gates.


Avenger

The first of the new class archetypes I’m going to talk about is the avenger. This class archetype for the rogue was inspired by the iconic of a Pathfinder First Edition class, the slayer. This iconic, Zadim, was a potent dual-wielding combatant who worked for a splinter branch of Sarenrae’s faith. For War of Immortals, we wanted Zadim and the avenger class archetype to be very representative of the type of rogue character who would get involved in godly affairs.

This rogue class archetype requires you to choose a deity, adjusts your starting skills, gives you a special avenger racket, and replaces the rogue’s surprise attack class feature with the Hunt Prey action. It also makes some adjustments to your sneak attack, allowing you to sneak attack with your deity’s favored weapon. Avengers excel at combatting enemy priests while wielding the favored weapons of their chosen deities, making them deadly and feared warriors during a time when gods and their servitors are at war!


Art by Kendal Gates: Pathfinder iconic bloodrager, Trzikhun, Reaper of Ukuja

The bloodrager Trzikhun. Art by Kendal Gates.


Bloodrager

In Pathfinder First Edition, the bloodrager was a class that mashed together the sorcerer and the barbarian to create a bloodline-oriented warrior with rage and limited spellcasting. We wanted to reimagine this class for Pathfinder Second Edition into something that better embodied the name and that tied more tightly into our game world, which is what we’ve done with this barbarian class archetype. With that reimagining, we brought a new character in to represent the concept: Trzikhun, Reaper of Ukuja, a Matanji orc who is part of a tradition of orcish demon-slayers who drink the blood of shadow demons to gain magical power.

Bloodragers have some modified skills and must choose the bloodrager instinct, which gives them blood rage. Blood rage allows the bloodrager to inflict persistent bleed damage while raging and applies their additional damage from rage to their spells. Their dedication feat at 2nd level gives them spellcasting and adds the rage trait to the spells they gain from this archetype while they are raging, as well as giving them the Harvest Blood action, which allows them to refresh their temporary Hit Points and boost their saving throws against the magical attacks of enemies who they have used Harvest Blood against. This ability plays into later feats like Spelldrinker, which allows them to temporarily add spells to their repertoire when using Harvest Blood based on the type of target creature, such as granting them the wall of thorns spell when they use Harvest Blood against a fey enemy!


The vindicator Imrijka

The vindicator Imrijka. Art by Kendal Gates.


Vindicator

The final class archetype we’re going to talk about today is the vindicator class archetype, which alters the ranger class. This class archetype requires the ranger to choose a deity, is automatically trained in Religion instead of Nature, and is trained in their deity’s favored weapon, gaining deadly simplicity if that weapon’s damage dice is smaller than d6 and treating the weapon as martial for the purposes of proficiency if the weapon is advanced. They also gain a special hunter’s edge called the vindication edge and learn their warden spells as divine spells, as well as gaining the ability to select domain spells as appropriate to their deity. They gain their deity’s sanctification and have some other adjustments to class features like trackless journey and masterful hunter to make them better fit with the other changes.

This class archetype is represented by Imrijka, who was the iconic inquisitor in Pathfinder First Edition. As part of her update to Pathfinder Second Edition, Imrijka’s outfit is now done in Pharasma’s holy colors, and she is known as a vindicator; only vindicators of evil deities are called inquisitors.* This class archetype allows characters like Imrijka to combine the ranger’s strong skill and combat chassis with the potent focus spell casting supported by the vindication edge, making vindicators well-rounded characters who excel at hunting down monsters who lurk among the faithful of their chosen religion. With powerful focus spells like vindicator’s mark and vindicator’s judgment, the vindicator can mark their prey, hunting them down and dealing devastating damage. With feats like Call the Hunt, vindicators make their hunted prey off-guard if they and at least one of their allies are both adjacent to the target, and the vindicator can share their divine sanctification with their allies!




With these three class archetypes (which are not the only new class archetypes in the book!), we’ve brought a couple old friends forward from Pathfinder First Edition and enabled some new character concepts that weren’t quite able to be fully realized to our satisfaction in Pathfinder Second Edition. We’ve also added powerful new warriors to our players’ arsenals that each have their own particular motivations to participate in the War of Immortals. We’re looking forward to seeing you unleash them when the book drops this October!

Michael Sayre (he/him)
Director of Rules & Lore


* Paizo’s move away from the term “inquisitor” is a deliberate choice due to the term’s negative historical connotations. Our intent is to provide our players with a more heroic title for a class mechanic that we know appeals to a large portion of our audience.

Paizo Editorial Staff

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Tags: Pathfinder Pathfinder Remaster Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Second Edition
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2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Quick edit. The bloodrager picture reads "the avenger zadim"


9 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

I am very excited about the Bloodrager coming back.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Honestly I'm glad to see these archetypes, and how different they are compared to their 1E counterparts, and how they alter the classes.


13 people marked this as a favorite.

Great stuff!

A lot of the Hybrid classes of 1e work so much better as Class Archetypes, to be honest.

Shadow Lodge

11 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I've missed Imrijka. I may actually play a ranger now.

Very excited.

I'm also *very* happy to see deity choices mattering for additional classes. That's something I always try to work into my characters so it is nice to be able to leverage some mechanics off of that.


Oh man, it's been a while since we've seen some class archetypes.

I hope these are beautifully implemented because I love the nuance they bring to the table!

Wayfinders

1 person marked this as a favorite.

All three of these sound like bangers, and both avenger and vindicator sound like exciting takes on being an offensive-minded divine character.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Though one question I have is do Bloodragers still have bloodlines or do they just get spells from a tradition.


Looks like the start of the Vindicator blurb got cut off, it starts with just "ranger class."

Paizo Employee Director of Rules & Lore

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Raitzeno wrote:
Looks like the start of the Vindicator blurb got cut off, it starts with just "ranger class."

I've pinged the website team about fixing that along with the copy/paste error on the bloodrager art, should be resolved shortly.

Literally in the time it took me to make this post.


16 people marked this as a favorite.

So here we've got a God-sworn Rogue, a God-sworn Ranger, and a BLOOD DRINKING MURDEROUS RAGING SPELL WARRIOR BURN WITH MY FLAMES AND GUSH YOUR ICHOR INTO MY MOUTH THAT I MIGHT WIELD YOUR MAGIC AGAINST YOU FOUL CREATURE BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD.
neat!

Horizon Hunters

Terrified to see sneak attack on big weapons

Now to wait patiently for all the cool archetypes…


10 people marked this as a favorite.

Imrijka, how I've missed you!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Harvest Blood and Spelldrinker... I love these!!!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Class Archetypes are such an exciting design space! I hope the team keeps developing more of these!

Dark Archive

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Disappointed that I can't mix animal Instinct with bloodrager...but bloodrager still sounds metal af.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

A bloodrager using actual blood magic? I am sold.


Cool mechanics. Guess I have to stop referring to e.g. Alchemist, Rogue, Sorcerer etc. archetypes as 'class archetypes,' otherwise this is going to get confusing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Moth Mariner wrote:

Terrified to see sneak attack on big weapons

Now to wait patiently for all the cool archetypes…

I'm really hoping that they made Sneak Attack with weapons you wouldn't normally be able to use sneak attack with dependent on Hunt Prey, so that we can have Bastard Sword Avenger Rogues, as opposed to say, just blocking out those kinds of weapons.


13 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

"...only vindicators of evil deities are called inquisitors."

Nice touch.


Let the hunt begin


I would have been a little sad for Bloodrager not getting Sorcerer bloodlines if Sorcerer hadn't already been reworked to not be so heavy on martial focus spells. As it stands, this seems like a good way to build a slightly magical martial character - sometimes I want a rakshasa-esque character that tosses out the occasional Command spell without Magus's 8hp and tight action economy. Getting a more supported option is nice,and making it more blood-themed gives plenty of flavor. I'm really curious to see the specific implementation!

Vindicator is cool. I'm gonna take a year to get used to the blue, but it makes way more sense. Love "Inquisitor" being tied to more evil options specifically; that feels like an appropriate way to handle the connotations. Having a couple strong, thematic focus spells does a nice job of capturing some of the old class's class-specific spells and abilities.

Avenger is nice to see to fill the role of a divine agent working with skill and guile. Very heavy on the deity's weapon, from the sound of it.

While the last two are a little more deity-oriented than I tend to play, it's good to see the narrative list of what sort of people receive a god's blessing fleshed out. Both seem like especially good pairings for Prey for Death characters, too.


Inquisitor mention woo-hoo!


11 people marked this as a favorite.
Easl wrote:
Cool mechanics. Guess I have to stop referring to e.g. Alchemist, Rogue, Sorcerer etc. archetypes as 'class archetypes,' otherwise this is going to get confusing.

Those archetypes have always been referred to as "multiclass archetypes" since the game came out. So that lexicon is right there for you to use.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Bluemagetim wrote:

"...only vindicators of evil deities are called inquisitors."

Nice touch.

My contrarian side feels the urge to make an Inquisitor named David Hume.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I never thought of Inquisitors as always being evil.

However, I have always thought of them as being a sort of "Church Police."

While the Inquisitors of Spain back in the late 15th through early 19th centuries are almost universally considered to be "evil," I never thought that all Pathfinder Inquisitors of being so.

"Good" churches like Sarenrae's are in need of those who can root out the rot in their churches as much as the "Evil" churches are in need of those who can root out the infiltrators in theirs.

If it's misunderstood meanings of what an Inquisitor is that's the problem, the cure is a proper education and less limited thinking.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ezekieru wrote:
Easl wrote:
Cool mechanics. Guess I have to stop referring to e.g. Alchemist, Rogue, Sorcerer etc. archetypes as 'class archetypes,' otherwise this is going to get confusing.
Those archetypes have always been referred to as "multiclass archetypes" since the game came out. So that lexicon is right there for you to use.

You're right. But the older class archetypes - and yes, Paizo uses that exact term, I'm looking at it on p56 of RoE right now - use the same 'Dedication feat at L2' mechanic. So like it or not, this is a use of a current term to refer to a new mechanic.

[Edit] Ah okay, reading on after the several responses below, I'm just wrong. Thanks for the clarification all.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Easl wrote:
Ezekieru wrote:
Easl wrote:
Cool mechanics. Guess I have to stop referring to e.g. Alchemist, Rogue, Sorcerer etc. archetypes as 'class archetypes,' otherwise this is going to get confusing.
Those archetypes have always been referred to as "multiclass archetypes" since the game came out. So that lexicon is right there for you to use.
You're right. But the older class archetypes - and yes, Paizo uses that exact term, I'm looking at it on p56 of RoE right now - use the same 'Dedication feat at L2' mechanic. So like it or not, this is a use of a current term to refer to a new mechanic.

These class architypes will have an effect at level one, and a mandatory feat you have to take at level 2 like every other class feat. These work in the exact same way as all existing class architypes.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Easl wrote:
Ezekieru wrote:
Easl wrote:
Cool mechanics. Guess I have to stop referring to e.g. Alchemist, Rogue, Sorcerer etc. archetypes as 'class archetypes,' otherwise this is going to get confusing.
Those archetypes have always been referred to as "multiclass archetypes" since the game came out. So that lexicon is right there for you to use.
You're right. But the older class archetypes - and yes, Paizo uses that exact term, I'm looking at it on p56 of RoE right now - use the same 'Dedication feat at L2' mechanic. So like it or not, this is a use of a current term to refer to a new mechanic.

Class archetypes are not new, they first showed up in Secrets of Magics.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
only vindicators of evil deities are called inquisitors.*

Good move, was wondering how an inquisitor class, if it got made, would be renamed given the history of the various inquisitions


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Interesting that the bloodrager is almost an entirely different thing from the pf1 bloodrager. Team+ already did a great job translating the idea of that class, and frankly the new BR sounds more like what someone without experience in first edition would assume if they heard the term "bloodrager".


I will say, I am only not a fan of the name change because it misrepresents what the class does, using what limited knowledge that this blog post presents.

Apparently a lot of people feel passionately about this subject so I guess I can see why change it. Just the name makes me think it would be a social Investigator.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Naming aside, thrilled to have Zadim and Imrijka back, and attached to two options that I'm hotly anticipating, with mechanical/fluff niches I'm pretty into, for classes I'm already really fond of. Need Avenger and Vindicator rubbed all over my eyeballs, so waiting for it is gonna be tough.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

Huge fix for the bloodrager. I'd actually play this! I have zero interest in any class that ties its power to bloodlines, and I was super worried the only "caster barbarian" option we ever get would be flavored as another sorcerer. I do still really want barbarians to just drop the Concentration ban already, but that's fine for homebrew and 3pp design.

Also, super excited to get our first proper "spellthief"! I hope it's the first of a few. A Magus subclass/class archetype with a similar power would be super cool--someone a bit more focused on the spells angle. And, of course, we still need a new adaptation of the sandman. Maybe merge that with the eventual eldritch trickster?

I'm also very happy about the inquisitor name change! I think the idea of keeping "inquisitor", but only for the evil vindicators, is a great compromise, and it makes sense--while "inquisitor" is a generalized term, when connected to "rooting out the rot" for your church, it's only ever been about oppression and genocide IRL. An Asmodean inquisitor lines up perfectly with that.

I'm gonna miss the snappy red outfit, though. Not because of the obvious reference; I'm just a sucker for a Carmen Sandiego cosplay.


The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Moth Mariner wrote:

Terrified to see sneak attack on big weapons

Now to wait patiently for all the cool archetypes…

I'm really hoping that they made Sneak Attack with weapons you wouldn't normally be able to use sneak attack with dependent on Hunt Prey, so that we can have Bastard Sword Avenger Rogues, as opposed to say, just blocking out those kinds of weapons.

Unclear. Zadim's scimitar is already a legal choice for Ruffian rogues. I can't imagine they'd let us sneak attack with d12's.

Grand Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, my Sarenite Ranger with Cleric dedication may be getting a rebuild. Looking forward to digging in to the Vindicator archetype!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Arachnofiend wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Moth Mariner wrote:

Terrified to see sneak attack on big weapons

Now to wait patiently for all the cool archetypes…

I'm really hoping that they made Sneak Attack with weapons you wouldn't normally be able to use sneak attack with dependent on Hunt Prey, so that we can have Bastard Sword Avenger Rogues, as opposed to say, just blocking out those kinds of weapons.
Unclear. Zadim's scimitar is already a legal choice for Ruffian rogues. I can't imagine they'd let us sneak attack with d12's.

It says its changing sneak attack for this, so higher damage die weapons could reduce the sneak attack die to a d4, or require that you hunt prey first.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Arachnofiend wrote:
Interesting that the bloodrager is almost an entirely different thing from the pf1 bloodrager. Team+ already did a great job translating the idea of that class, and frankly the new BR sounds more like what someone without experience in first edition would assume if they heard the term "bloodrager".

I have to say I thought this was the case but rereading I think bloodranger is the same thing plus extra. If you think back to the original class they didn't have much in the way of anything beside rage, spellcasting and a few bloodline abilities. We don't have bloodline abilities here because this is thematically very different but I think it has more of a genuine thematic component and truly seems sick as hell. I'm stoked, hope they executed it well


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Arachnofiend wrote:
Interesting that the bloodrager is almost an entirely different thing from the pf1 bloodrager. Team+ already did a great job translating the idea of that class, and frankly the new BR sounds more like what someone without experience in first edition would assume if they heard the term "bloodrager".

I think that's a good thing! The old bloodrager was just a fusion class without a ton of flavor of its own. People who want to can pick up the Team+ version, but I think "the new official bloodrager is what new players would expect a 'bloodrager' to be" is a huge plus.

Grand Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Zullock wrote:
Easl wrote:
Ezekieru wrote:
Easl wrote:
Cool mechanics. Guess I have to stop referring to e.g. Alchemist, Rogue, Sorcerer etc. archetypes as 'class archetypes,' otherwise this is going to get confusing.
Those archetypes have always been referred to as "multiclass archetypes" since the game came out. So that lexicon is right there for you to use.
You're right. But the older class archetypes - and yes, Paizo uses that exact term, I'm looking at it on p56 of RoE right now - use the same 'Dedication feat at L2' mechanic. So like it or not, this is a use of a current term to refer to a new mechanic.
Class archetypes are not new, they first showed up in Secrets of Magics.

And the rules were spelled out in the Core Rulebook from the start. :P

Specifically, the "changes things at level 1, and you need to take the dedication at lvl 2" rule was there in the very first printing of the Core Rulebook. It just stayed unused for a bit. :P


Mr.Haos wrote:
Though one question I have is do Bloodragers still have bloodlines or do they just get spells from a tradition.

I imagine it'll work something akin to a sorcerer where they can select a tradition based on a bloodline.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It doesn't sound like there's any bloodlines, considering we already know the "blood" name is about the blood they drink. It'd be weird if "bloodrager" was referring to two unrelated "blood" components.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
It doesn't sound like there's any bloodlines, considering we already know the "blood" name is about the blood they drink. It'd be weird if "bloodrager" was referring to two unrelated "blood" components.

It could still allow for both with feat options, or special text with the blood rager dedication that let's you grab feats as if you had sorcerer dedication.


Maybe a Bloodrager feat that lets you grab any one spellcasting dedication feat and add rage to those spells? That said, the "blood-drinking" ability seems to be the way you're supposed to be (temporarily) expanding your spell repertoire.


Excited about the archetypes, sad about these illustrations...


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh, gosh, the art is gorgeous! I think my favorite is the bloodrager. Love the texturing on his equipment. He looks so grungey, like that armor's seen things.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's interesting that Player Core 2 also went a little more literal with the blood portion of bloodline (at least with some of the new options). It feels like the same design idea is being brought to life here.

I'm not sure what tradition bloodrager will be - I lean towards a choose a tradition like suggested based on your usual... Prey. But maybe they will simply pick arcane and add to it based on what you consume.
I wouldn't mind stealing focus spells from sorcerer even without the martially-inclined ones available.


I hope it's pick a tradition, personally! Magus is already weirdly limited to arcane.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

All three of these are hitting some of my favorite character concepts from PF1. I'm SUPER excited to dig into these.

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