Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster Project!

I suggest attending Jason's livestream this afternoon as well as our panels at PaizoCon (especially), which will go into greater detail on specific changes.

Wait, Jason's doing a live stream? In about 1.5 hours according to your twitch schedule?

I saw on reddit that rollforcombat will do a stream with you in like 2.5 hours. Are those two different streams?

I suspect the changes are:
1. OGL-related (removing legally grey content)
2. Reformatting the rules for readability (they aren’t complicated, but some alternative wording might be good regardless)
3. An opportunity for integrating planned errata’s

"slightly different mix of monsters, spells, and magic items, the rules remain largely unchanged"

That's some weasel wording there. Why a different mix? There shouldn't be. Either it's changed, or it's not. "largely" is also an out for "ok, so there are changes [beyond errata]!"
[...]
Removing alignment is also a mistake.

The changes being made are in large part due to moving from the WotC OGL and any IP that they may lay claim to, and to Paizo's own ORC license.

The new core rulebooks will also serve as a new foundation for our publishing partners, transitioning the game away from the Open Game License that caused so much controversy earlier this year to the more stable and reliable Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, which is currently being finalized with the help of hundreds of independent RPG publishers. This transition will result in a few minor modifications to the Pathfinder Second Edition system, notably the removal of alignment and a small number of nostalgic creatures, spells, and magic items exclusive to the OGL.

I love the splitting of the Core books into a Player/GM version. It's a big book to sift through at the table. That was my main wish when the Core Rulebook came out. Hope there's still some kind of alignment-ish type system still in the new books, otherwise very excited for the new product and wishing for a Starfinder update too.

Because I can see 6 months down the line, Paizo announces "Starfinder Remaster", where they do the exact same thing they just did here.

I hope so. It needs to be updated to the PF2E ruleset.

It would be a nice-to-have if the new GM book discussed alternate/additional dice. Several companies have d5s, d7s, and d16s on the market (along with d30s and d60s). Intermixing the first two in particular might open the design space for weapons and healing/harmful (read as blasting) damage.

EDIT: At this point I'm wishlisting. :)

Its bad enough that we have the abomination that is the d10. In my day, if you wanted a 1-10 number you rolled a d20 and it only had one digit! And if you wanted 1-20, you had to roll a "control" d6.

(I am not actually this old, but the d10 is an abomination against math.)

"slightly different mix of monsters, spells, and magic items, the rules remain largely unchanged"

That's some weasel wording there. Why a different mix? There shouldn't be. Either it's changed, or it's not. "largely" is also an out for "ok, so there are changes [beyond errata]!"

Given that Paizo has added a lot more backgrounds, classes, archetypes, and monsters since the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Core Rulebook was published in 2019, I see no problem with putting some of the more recent yet popular ones into the new rulebooks to replace some of the less popular ones or license-conflicted ones.

Also, generally not a fan of a Player and GM split on books. Paizo's always done right with the CRB being one and all, then separate bestiary only. Now if you pull out the bestiary, you have all the extra baggage that isn't monsters, for instance. The "GM" book is a system-hacking baseline, and how-to-manage-people guide, really its own thing. Et cetera.

I agree here. Dungeons & Dragons putting some materials in the Dungeon Master Guide made them less accessible to players back when I a college student and borrowed books to build my characters. Fortunately, Archives of Nethys should make everything available to the players. I view Paizo's Gamemastery Guide as the GM-specific book for Pathfinder.

Removing alignment is also a mistake.

When I explain alignment to new players in forums such as a Facebook Pathfinder group, I find myself explaining the history of alignment, that it was good for the kick-in-the-door style of play in early Dungeons & Dragons to identify enemies on sight. Such shortcuts are not necessary in a well-written module that explains why the opponents are enemies, and Paizo writes good modules.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition added edicts and anathemas as diety-specific moral codes for barbarians, champions, and clerics and those are more flavorful than alignments.

In addition, we currently have some threads, such as Alignment damage and heavy alignment mechanics shouldn’t have carried over from 1e, that are arguing about alignment. Rules that lead to arguments are best straightened out to be less disruptive. As I said in one of the threads, "I treat alignment more as a description of temperament and religious allegiance." I would still like a description of the temperament of monsters that I can quickly search for building an encounter, but it does not have to be a complicated system interwoven with divine magic.

I'm staying with 1e, but will be curious about this new version. I've some of the PDFs of 2e, and a BB and a CRB

Now if the Magi was in the new core, you could count me in

So lots of spells on the Divine Tradition list are gonna go away or become less effective?

I cannot say I’m pleased with the removal of alignment. I understand many have misgivings about it but that’s a massive change to the lore of the Great Beyond. I’m having flashbacks of 4th Edition.

Erik Mona wrote:

I suggest attending Jason's livestream this afternoon as well as our panels at PaizoCon (especially), which will go into greater detail on specific changes.

Wait, Jason's doing a live stream? In about 1.5 hours according to your twitch schedule?

I saw on reddit that rollforcombat will do a stream with you in like 2.5 hours. Are those two different streams?

Yes. Different streams.

Erik Mona wrote:

I suspected the alignment part would generate some conversation.

I'm sure Jason will go into this a little deeper in today's stream, but just because we are removing the classic nine-alignement grid does not mean we are abandoning the idea of certain creatures being "good" or "evil" in a cosmic sense.

The significant majority of Pathfinder rules regarding alignment hinge on that aspect, so expect the remastered books to cover this in a way that doesn't wreck the champion or demons, for example.

But is there something to replace it?

There is reason why I made whole homebrew alignment table of "eight alignments of Community, Beneficent, Liberty, Dogma, Anarchy, Tyranny, Ego, Destruction derived from cosmic forces Radiance, Shadow, Preservation and Entropy" for my homebrew campaign idea :'D Because I really like idea of SMT type stuff and alignments being something you choose to be which makes creatures who chose same like you better.

Idea of being ALIGNED with cosmic force and getting benefits from it is so cool :'D

Because its silly to edit post that is on last post of last page so nobody is gonna see the edit but I'mma continuing here:

I've always liked alignment from perspective of them being cosmic forces your soul is attracted to rather than as personality test thing :'D

So lots of spells on the Divine Tradition list are gonna go away or become less effective?

Or become more effective as restrictions are removed. Or stay exactly the same effectiveness as the removal of the alignment grid is replaced with an alignment tag system because "Evil" and "Lawful" can't be copyrighted but "Lawful Evil" potentially can be. It's a little early to say, but possibly only a couple hours to early.

but that’s a massive change to the lore of the Great Beyond. I’m having flashbacks of 4th Edition.

Well, one thing dropping the 3x3 alignment grid is that this allows you to have more than 9 outer planes. The whole idea of "mortals exists in order to sort the potentiality that spills out of the Positive Energy Plane into the sorts of energy that can be used to reinforce the outer planes against the corrosive effects of the Maelstrom" works with 9 outer planes, but also works with like 11 or 407.

After all "how Pharasma does her job" is probably something that should not be understood by the player or GM.

I cannot say I’m pleased with the removal of alignment. I understand many have misgivings about it but that’s a massive change to the lore of the Great Beyond. I’m having flashbacks of 4th Edition.

We don't plan to change the structure of the Great Beyond, so if the alignment aspect underpinning the organization and various interrelationships between the planes is important to you, don't expect any major changes to the lore that will frustrate you.

Bigger question: how will this impact the announcements of new releases of the rulebooks for 2024+?

Will those books substitute the slots of the other books? I'm not yet sure what to think of the change, but it would be a huge bummer to not see new material for a year or more and just focus on 'remasters'. We have plenty of rulebooks, is it just the 1st wave? Are there going to be remasters of Secrets of Magic, Dark Archive etc? As much as I enjoy clearing up the rules and reorganizing content into more user-friendly layout, I would not prefer that over completely stopping the new releases of future rulebooks for a year or two.

Will this fix any of the things the community I personally really wants including, but not limited to:

- Rogues with Martial Weapon Proficiency
- Alchemist Master in bombs/KAS of STR, DEX, or INT.
- Shield runes (e.g., durable?)
- New look at signet ring vs. spell attack roll runes
- Swap of warpriest to bounded caster magus style weapon/spell casting progression base chassis.
- Neutral Champions with no alignment?
- Making Free Archetype the base rule not the variant rule
- Making Automatic Bonus Progression the base rule not the variant rule.

FTFY

Strange, since my recollection is that the original D&D got a lot of their alignment stuff from Elric of Melniboné and other similar book series. The first book of that series was published in 1972. Now those books were about Law vs Chaos, but still it seems that their claim would be weak.

Yep, I believe the first big one for that (Law vs. Chaos) was Three Hearts and Three Lions (1961) by Poul Anderson.

As a new player that has just bought the books... this sucks, a lot...

Will the Twitch stream be recorded for those who are unable to attend?

You have celebrations and questions? Join Jason Bulmahn, our Director of Game Design, on Twitch today at 1 PM Pacific. Then Erik Mona, our Publisher and Chief Creative Officer will be interviewed on Roll for Combat’s YouTube channel at 2 PM Pacific: https://www.youtube.com/@RollForCombat.

Edit: These cover are not final. Stay tuned!

That youtube link does not exist, just fyi.

- Making Automatic Bonus Progression the base rule not the variant rule.

Realistic expectations, ABP works as a variant rule with some appreciable GM adjudication, but they're not going to introduce a baseline rule that says "ignore half the entry for half the items and make the following loot adjustments to every adventure path".

>No Alignment

I'm out. Sorry. Don't know what kind of a bait & switch this is, but I'm out.

"Your existing books are still valid" my ass.

The "no alignment" is quite sure something to put distance from D&D material, so no problems with ORC and all that. Quite sure there will be something VERY similar, maybe with some minor to dodge problems.

Blave wrote:

Erik Mona wrote:

I suggest attending Jason's livestream this afternoon as well as our panels at PaizoCon (especially), which will go into greater detail on specific changes.

Wait, Jason's doing a live stream? In about 1.5 hours according to your twitch schedule?

I saw on reddit that rollforcombat will do a stream with you in like 2.5 hours. Are those two different streams?

Jason and Logan will be on the Paizo twitch channel at 1PM Pacific, and Erik will be appearing on the Roll for Combat channel an hour later. They're two different streams on two different twitch channels.

I thought Roll for Combat was YouTube…

No alignment make me very happy.

As a new player that has just bought the books... this sucks, a lot...

It does... and it doesn't.

With a focus on being reverse-compatible, it keeps the 'original run' viable despite some changes in the structure.

It won't be in the same format due to how they're doing it, and there may be structural changes due to removal of some things -- but it sounds on the surface like a .pdf/book will be released for folks as a conversion guide between the two.

At the very least a file detailing changes provided for free once the Core goes 'Live' would be immeasurable at maintaining confidence for new arrivals.

Are things like divine lance which deals alignment damage also going away then?

I hope so, or at least I hope they get changed

I hope the removal of alignment means no more evil/good damage, which I felt made things like complex or not-B&W characters hard

As a new player that has just bought the books... this sucks, a lot...

To be clear - because I am curious.

Which parts of "the existing rulebooks will continue to be compatible and work just fine" and "all of the rulebooks are available for free online" sucks a lot?

I only have the pdf versions of the rulebooks that I have bought. Not hard copies. And those pdf versions aren't being replaced with the new versions even though copying and allowing access to a digital resource is very nearly a $0 operation. But I'm not upset about it much at all - because the existing rulebooks that I have will still be compatible for the most part, and the changes are all available on Archives of Nethys.

I can say with authority that we will not be adding any weird dice to the Pathfinder Core Rules as part of the Remaster Project.

Puts away his d13s and d∞

... fine...

Aaron Shanks wrote:

You have celebrations and questions? Join Jason Bulmahn, our Director of Game Design, on Twitch today at 1 PM Pacific. Then Erik Mona, our Publisher and Chief Creative Officer will be interviewed on Roll for Combat’s YouTube channel at 2 PM Pacific: https://www.youtube.com/@RollForCombat.

Edit: These cover are not final. Stay tuned!

That youtube link does not exist, just fyi.

You can get a reminder for the youtube one at:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xAa3SaHXLg

I feel like the Paizo website as a whole is a bit unorganized for new prospective players. I say this because I just bought the 2nd Edition of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook hardcover edition when it was on backorder. I finally received the book and was confused on if that is all I really needed to get things started.

As I started browsing the forums, I find out about this Second Edition Remaster Project. Nowhere on the main website page is this brought up or announced or discussed. I'm sure a lot of you guys who are advanced players know how to find every piece of information on this site but it is not laid out well for new visitors.

As a result, I feel like I may have wasted $60 on a book that will be replaced in 6 months.

Please update your site and better organize your book listings for newbies. It would be appreciated.

I empathize, and you're not entirely wrong about the website, but this was just announced today.

I didn't see that coming -- at least not so soon -- but it makes sense. WotC has made it quite clear that they cannot be trusted, so getting the OGL out of Pathfinder ASAP is a smart move.

I'm also happy to see that we'll be getting the "traditional" Player book / GM book / Monster book trinity. Sometimes the old ways are the best.

Finally -- and I realize I'm in the minority, at least on Paizo.com -- I've long felt that the organization of the 2E core rule book was quite poor.

>No Alignment

I'm out. Sorry. Don't know what kind of a bait & switch this is, but I'm out.

"Your existing books are still valid" my ass.

Pretty strong stance to take when you have literally no idea what the replacement is, or if a replacement is even needed. Could be as simple as decoupling alignment from PCs and turning alignment into traits for NPCs.

>No Alignment

I'm out. Sorry. Don't know what kind of a bait & switch this is, but I'm out.

"Your existing books are still valid" my ass.

Best. Day. Ever.

Awesome changes, excited to see the full results!

I agree that "Monster Core" is a lesser name to "Bestiary". The former sounds clinical and lacks any fantasy panache.
Maybe "Bestiary Core"?

Heck, now that I think about it, maybe the other names need an overhaul too, w/ maybe the "core" part being the subtitle. Hmm.

--
That said, I look forward to Paizo ironing out some of the unforeseen kinks, i.e. the usage of "Attack" and some of the Battleform snags.

I'm intrigued to see what's done in alignment's former space. I would not like to see any shifts in power curves (i.e. FA), except at the lower ends, i.e. Alchemists as a martial.

One must wonder how many monsters will be getting a revised design/new art ala 2E Kobolds. I would be surprised if it doesn't end up being a decent number.

Erik Mona wrote:

I can say with authority that we will not be adding any weird dice to the Pathfinder Core Rules as part of the Remaster Project.

Puts away his d13s and d∞

... fine...

Yeah, boo, hiss. (I'm jesting. I wasn't expecting it to happen.)

I am new to Pathfinder and have yet to play my first game. Been collecting the books and absorbing tutorials and streams on YouTube. There are some great content creators out there!

On the one hand, I love the single CRB for its value and having all info in one place. Sometimes, there is information overlap between GMs and players. Cleanly splitting them between two volumes always seemed messy to me in D&D. On the other hand, though, I think the game is a little more frightening to new players when they see this immense CRB. Having a smaller player's guide focused on new players and getting started might be a wiser choice.

The main thing I love about a remaster, particularly as a new player, is the incorporation of errata. I love to see up-to-date rules compendiums! While costly to keep re-buying books, nothing beats a fresh new tome with all the bits and bobs consolidated into it. Again, for new players, this is great! Who wants to go on a research mission after buying their fresh new book to assemble all the changes in loose-leaf form? You gotta learn the old way and then the new ways. It's a bit messy- although unavoidable.

Finally, the elimination of alignment? Eh. I will not miss the silly arguments over what EXACTLY a lawful good character would do in difficult situations. Losing the concept, however, seems like it would significantly impact the game rules. What about all those religions and deities? What about alignment-dependent classes such as Champions and Clerics, whose proficiencies and skills can significantly depend on synergy between various aspects of alignment? Seems like a big change that would require a whole new substitute mechanic. It also seems like a whole lot of tinkering with weapon stats, damage types, anathema dynamics, etc. This seems more like an edition-level change to me.

All that being said, I am excited about this release! Even as someone new to the game, I am thoroughly impressed with the physical quality of the rulebooks, the clarity of the conventions used in them, the richness and depth of the Golarion setting, and the striking artwork contained in every volume. So much from Paizo is first rate in my opinion, especially when compared with WotC products. I can't believe I waited so long to check it out!

Erik Mona wrote:

I can say with authority that we will not be adding any weird dice to the Pathfinder Core Rules as part of the Remaster Project.

Puts away his d13s and d∞

... fine...

I would love to see a Misfortune effect that utilized d13s (as in replace the d20 for this roll). It feels so right, and yet so wrong, which makes it feel even more right.

Let's hope this doesn't hit Starfinder.

"slightly different mix of monsters, spells, and magic items, the rules remain largely unchanged"

That's some weasel wording there. Why a different mix? There shouldn't be. Either it's changed, or it's not. "largely" is also an out for "ok, so there are changes [beyond errata]!"

Also, generally not a fan of a Player and GM split on books. Paizo's always done right with the CRB being one and all, then separate bestiary only. Now if you pull out the bestiary, you have all the extra baggage that isn't monsters, for instance. The "GM" book is a system-hacking baseline, and how-to-manage-people guide, really its own thing. Et cetera.

Removing alignment is also a mistake.

Interestingly, I disagree with just about everything you've said here. :P

The slightly different mix is largely unavoidable if you jettison the OGL.

The player/GM split on books has been around since 1E for a reason: it works. I'm glad to see it (finally) arrive for Pathfinder.

I can see removing alignment seem like change for change's sake, but it has become increasingly problematic. Good riddance.

I can't make the live streams! Some one ask about a character sheet redesign for me!!!

OMG YES! An RPG character sheet should never resemble a Scantron form...

I can't make the live streams! Some one ask about a character sheet redesign for me!!!

"removal of alignment": I don't dance often, but I'll happily do a jig on alignments grave!

"removal of alignment": I don't dance often, but I'll happily do a jig on alignments grave!

I think alignment still served a purpose as a good guide for role play and could be used for story

But seeing that no alignment means no more alignment mechanics like inability to play a lawful good redeemer and also means NO MORE ALIGNMENT DAMAGE! I am going to dance on it’s grave alongside you

Alignment damage stinks. Might graffiti, pee on, destroy it’s tombstone and all other things on it’s grave

Phaye wrote:

I can't make the live streams! Some one ask about a character sheet redesign for me!!!

OMG YES! An RPG character sheet should never resemble a Scantron form...

I can't agree harder, the PF2e sheet is so ugly I go out of my way to use alternatives made by other people.

Again I am going to hold off on celebrations in either direction until I see what - if any - replacement or rework is done for alignment and alignment damage.

bugleyman wrote:

Phaye wrote:

I can't make the live streams! Some one ask about a character sheet redesign for me!!!

OMG YES! An RPG character sheet should never resemble a Scantron form...

I can't agree harder, the PF2e sheet is so ugly I go out of my way to use alternatives made by other people.

It’s why I’ve only used pathbuilder.

I had multiple people send this link to me with in seconds of each other, all asking if I was upset I was going to have to buy new books.

Personally I'm really interested in seeing what the changes are especially alignment. (How will this impact my Pharasmite!?) I'm also curious about how this will trickle down to PFS.

So in short I'm kind excited to see where this goes and I think I'm going to need to get a bigger bookshelf.