Core Rulebook 2nd Printing Errata

Elfteiroh wrote:

Well, a snare ranger can't have healer's tools for battle medicine and quick snare, for example.

And *I'll be honest, I've got a character that has more tools that they can wear.

Yeah, the 2 Bulk limit is super rough when so many tool kits weigh that much. And there's no options to increase that limit.

Maybe we will get magic tools that can change into different tool sets, or compact tool sets, or magic items that expand that limit or....

Lots of range for expansion here.

Also tool bearer familiar ability.

Lightning Raven wrote:

Mewzard wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

3) Much more minor, but to clarify the math of Cloud Jump, added an example of a character with 40 foot Speed who rolled a 25 and has Cloud Jump.

Having checked the Errata...Cloud Jump is significantly less fun of a Skill Feat now. This is for Legendary Athletes, like those in Greek Myths.

Now hitting that 50ish feet and then adding an additional 55 or so feet with each action to get into that Dragon's face as he's trying to Circle Strafe 100 feet up with a breath weapon, only to either Flurry his face or grapple him with Titan Wrestler?

This is not something you can do, sadly, without Sudden Leap and similar feats. If you use these jump abilities, you can't attack before you fall. You need something that lets you chain a strike along with the jump. Unless you meant by "get into the Dragon's face" to actually jump and stand there so you could perform other actions.

This makes the Felling Strike plus Sudden Leap much stronger now.

That's what GRAB AN EDGE is for! :D

Just grab on to arrest your fall, then attack to your heart's content! XD

Does this only work if the dragon is an edgelord?

Chants "Traveler's Any-Tool, Traveler's Any-Tool, Traveler's Any-Tool~..." under my breath

Looks at the item in PF2

Chants "Change usage, fewer actions, change usage, fewer actions, change usage, fewer actions~..." under my breath

Well, glad I got to enjoy the new format for a couple of posts, at least.

Well, glad I got to enjoy the new format for a couple of posts, at least.

And the "jump to new post" broke for me again. But the "new post count" is accurate again.

I can get to, and read, the two erratas, but if I try to search for anything, it loses its' mind and goes into derp mode.

I am using, I think, Microsoft Edge Chromium I believe it's called.

This means battle medicine is untenable for the majority of characters I'd want it on as they don't have 2 hands free.

Good, it should take two hands to use tools such as this.

graystone wrote:

This means battle medicine is untenable for the majority of characters I'd want it on as they don't have 2 hands free.

Good, it should take two hands to use tools such as this.

Boy do I have some news for you...

The tools update means if worn, battle medicine only requires one free hand.

Page 258: In Battle Medicine, change the Requirements entry to “You are holding or wearing healer's tools.” Change the second sentence of the effect to “Attempt a Medicine check with the same DC as for Treat Wounds, and restore a corresponding amount of Hit Points; this does not remove the wounded condition.” This means you need to use your healer's tools for Battle Medicine, but you can draw and replace worn tools as part of the action due to the errata on wearing tools on page 287.

Update: We will be updating the tools revamp to indicate that worn healer's tools (along with other tool kits) take only one hand to use, as you don't have to hold the whole kit in your other hand, just pull out the things you need. What this means for Battle Medicine is that you only need one free hand to perform it with worn healer's tools, you don't need both hands.

Pathfinder FAQ link

Why am I not seeing old Battle Medicine threads popping up with this joyous news? Why isn't this gaining traction. Why hasn't someone who has been waiting and criticizing this posted this? (I'm not going to because laziness)

Why am I not seeing old Battle Medicine threads popping up with this joyous news? Why isn't this gaining traction. Why hasn't someone who has been waiting and criticizing this posted this? (I'm not going to because laziness)

There have been several of those, at least three that I've seen personally. They pop back to the top for only one post announcing the change, though, since once it's announced there's not much to discuss.

Why am I not seeing old Battle Medicine threads popping up with this joyous news? Why isn't this gaining traction. Why hasn't someone who has been waiting and criticizing this posted this? (I'm not going to because laziness)

Because they are mostly talking about it in new threads instead of dredging up threads off the top page... Why drag up and necro an old thread?

Juuust to make sure...

Does this mean that a Bastion with Nimble Shield Hand can use Battle Medicine?

I want to say "Yes", but Nimble Shield Hand mentions "Interact", and Battle Medicine is "Manipulate".

Juuust to make sure...

Does this mean that a Bastion with Nimble Shield Hand can use Battle Medicine?

I want to say "Yes", but Nimble Shield Hand mentions "Interact", and Battle Medicine is "Manipulate".

Sadly no. Not sure why Nimble Shield Hand isn't "Manipulate" as it seems quite odd that is JUST works with that single specific action.

Why drag up and necro an old thread?

I've never understood this.

Why wouldn't you?

Why should I have to search through a dozen threads for something when it could have just been a couple threads?

Because then you get a bunch of people responding to years-old posts whose authors may never return, rather than discussions between the current community.

graystone wrote:

Why drag up and necro an old thread?

I've never understood this.

Why wouldn't you?

Why should I have to search through a dozen threads for something when it could have just been a couple threads?

When there are NEW threads talking about it, why dig around for old and dead threads? It seems self evident IMO. Opening up a dozen long dead threads JUST to post an update just means a bunch of thread look current when they aren't when before people could search and look at the dates and see they aren't current. IMO, the necro just makes looking for up to date and active threads harder.

Juuust to make sure...

Does this mean that a Bastion with Nimble Shield Hand can use Battle Medicine?

I want to say "Yes", but Nimble Shield Hand mentions "Interact", and Battle Medicine is "Manipulate".

I mean it says you can use the hand for anything but a weapon though as a follow up line, and worn tools say you replace and use the tools as part of the action that uses them.

Manipulate only says you need a suitable appendage, and that seems to align with both the readings of the new tools and nimble shield hands reading, as the interact action isn’t the only thing at play.

Juuust to make sure...

Does this mean that a Bastion with Nimble Shield Hand can use Battle Medicine?

I want to say "Yes", but Nimble Shield Hand mentions "Interact", and Battle Medicine is "Manipulate".

Isn't "Interact" an action and "Manipulate" a trait?

Nefreet wrote:

Juuust to make sure...

Does this mean that a Bastion with Nimble Shield Hand can use Battle Medicine?

I want to say "Yes", but Nimble Shield Hand mentions "Interact", and Battle Medicine is "Manipulate".

Isn't "Interact" an action and "Manipulate" a trait?

Interact is a specific action with the manipulate trait. It's kind of like Strike has the attack trait: if something allowed you to Strike that doesn't mean you can use any attack action.

Thomas Keller wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Juuust to make sure...

Does this mean that a Bastion with Nimble Shield Hand can use Battle Medicine?

I want to say "Yes", but Nimble Shield Hand mentions "Interact", and Battle Medicine is "Manipulate".

Isn't "Interact" an action and "Manipulate" a trait?

Interact is a specific action with the manipulate trait. It's kind of like Strike has the attack trait: if something allowed you to Strike that doesn't mean you can use any attack action.

If I'm "holding" the Healer's Tools in the Nimble Shield Hand, can I then use Battle Medicine?

Wear Healer's Tools => Interact to Draw Healer's Tools => Battle Medicine

So I could theoretically just walk around wielding my Shield AND holding the Tools?

No, because Nimble Shield Hand only counts your hand free for the Interact action. Holding the tools in that hand isn't an Interact action and Battle Medicine isn't an Interact action.

Though I also don't know why you'd be walking around holding the tools in one hand to begin with, that essentially provides no benefit right now.

Are we saying then that the second sentence means nothing, because I'm not sure what the point of it is if you can't use things like tools with it:

The hand you use to wield a shield counts as a free hand for the purposes of the Interact action. You can also hold another object in this hand (but you still can't use it to wield a weapon).

It's two separate sentences, so it implies more than just "only Interact" actions.

Oh well if not, it's a rather specific interaction, but the Feat is level 6 and I don't really see a problem with reading the second line inclusively for tools.

I could have worded that better, but yeah, you can just hold it thanks to the sentence sentence.

Although again, not sure why you'd want to. There's no benefit at all to holding the tools and held tools require two hands (I'm not even sure if this character could use the held tools in this case since nimble shield is specific about what you're allowed to do).

They don't require two hands if you're wearing them, though...

Does anyone have a working link to the 2nd errata? The link Mark Seifter posted above is dead.

Does anyone have a working link to the 2nd errata? The link Mark Seifter posted above is dead.

Should be https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq.

They don't require two hands if you're wearing them, though...

You are HOLDING them and that requires 2 hands and on top of that it says you can't USE the things you hold.

Are we saying then that the second sentence means nothing

No, you can hold things and it tells you you can't wield or use such items. We know you have to use healers tools to use Combat Medicine so it's coming out and telling you you can't use the feat with it in 2 ways [only interact actions and can't use held items].

It's two separate sentences, so it implies more than just "only Interact" actions.

(that second quote isn't mine)

Here's another situation. I'm trying to hammer this out because I have a Rebuild on the line.

Say you're holding a shortsword in one hand. We know you can use Battle Medicine if your other hand is empty.

Can you still use Battle Medicine if that hand was instead holding Healer's Tools?

(that second quote isn't mine)

Sorry!

Here's another situation. I'm trying to hammer this out because I have a Rebuild on the line.

Say you're holding a shortsword in one hand. We know you can use Battle Medicine if your other hand is empty.

If you are wearing the healr's tools, yes.

Can you still use Battle Medicine if that hand was instead holding Healer's Tools?

No. You need both hands if you are holding them. One hand holds the case and the other actually uses the tools.

Why would you be holding healer's tools instead of wearing them?

Why would you be holding healer's tools instead of wearing them?

There IS a limit of 2 bulk so if you have A snare kit, a healer's kit and thieves tools you can't wear them all. Not sure if that the issue here though.

Because I'm stuck on what Mark said earlier:

"you just need one hand to draw the items you need, and the kit as a whole stays worn"

Presumably when he says "draw", he means "Interact".

Nimble Shield Hand allows you to use Interact actions.

Ergo, if you're wearing Healer's Tools, you should be able to use Nimble Shield Hand for Battle Medicine....

Right?

Otherwise I have to scrap this Rebuild.

So you're trying to carry a shield and weapon and still be able to Battle Medicine?

Using Nimble Shield Hand:

You are so used to wielding a shield that you can do so even while using the hand that's holding it for other purposes. The hand you use to wield a shield counts as a free hand for the purposes of the Interact action. You can also hold another object in this hand (but you still can't use it to wield a weapon).

When he says "draw", he means "draw", the non-action bundled into the new way to use Battle Medicine and other tool-requiring actions. It's not an Interact action, it doesn't work with Nimble Shield Hand.

Scrap it if you're playing PFS. Otherwise, why are you asking people on the internet rather than your GM? At least see how cool with the idea they are before you go about putting it to rest.

Nimble Shield Hand allows you to use Interact actions.

Ergo, if you're wearing Healer's Tools, you should be able to use Nimble Shield Hand for Battle Medicine....

Right?

It doesn't work as battle medicine ISN'T an interact action. The hand is free only for interact actions and for holding items.

Otherwise I have to scrap this Rebuild.

Looks like a rebuild. Nimble Shield Hand is for opening doors, reloading a missile weapon, holding a torch and the like. It's not for lock picking, Administering First Aid, Steal, ect.

PS: "Presumably when he says "draw", he means "Interact": to reply to this, even if it is an Interact, it's a subordinate action which doesn't impact the overall actions requirements. Being able to qualify for the subordinate action in no way means you qualify for the main action.

It's a Rebuild, so it's for PFS.

So then that brings me back to the other question. We know you don't need two hands for worn tools, so can you just hold them in your Nimble Shield Hand instead?

This just seems like it should work, somehow, but something got lost between this ability being published and the Errata getting released.

So then that brings me back to the other question. We know you don't need two hands for worn tools, so can you just hold them in your Nimble Shield Hand instead?

You can hold them but I'm not sure what that gets you: you're still limited to Interact Actions. There is a difference between holding the tools and using the tools.

Does if make even a little sense? Not really. You can't even Force Open with a crowbar but you COULD pull a lever the exact same size as the crowbar with the exact same force because one is an Interact and the other isn't.

Nefreet wrote:

So then that brings me back to the other question. We know you don't need two hands for worn tools, so can you just hold them in your Nimble Shield Hand instead?

You can hold them but I'm not sure what that gets you: you're still limited to Interact Actions. There is a difference between holding the tools and using the tools.

That's why I asked about using a shortsword earlier.

If you can wield a shortsword, and hold worn Healer's Tools, can you use Battle Medicine?

If you can, then Nimble Shield Hand should also allow you to do it, too.

If you can wield a shortsword, and hold worn Healer's Tools, can you use Battle Medicine?

You can hold the tools but you can't use battle medicine: now you CAN wear the tools and leave your hand free and then you can use battle medicine [you need a free hand]. Holding the tools and wearing the tools are exclusive to each other.

So to be clear: short sword and free hand and worn Healers tools means you're good to go for Battle Medicine.

If you can, then Nimble Shield Hand should also allow you to do it, too.

Should? Maybe. It doesn't though as Nimble Shield Hand only gives a free hand for Interact Actions, of which Battle Medicine isn't one. I also think switching number of hands on a weapons shouldn't take an action but the rules don't agree. If it wasn't PFS, I'd say ask the Dm if you can scratch out Interact and replace it with Manipulate.

About the only think I can suggest is use a buckler instead or use a free hand weapon [gauntlet/Spiked gauntlet].

That's not viable for the build I was going with. I'll just have to start over.

on top of that it says you can't USE the things you hold.

Moving away from the current topic of Battle Medicine, this statement doesn't seem correct.

Nothing in Nimble Shield Hand says you can't use the items you're holding.

You're not limited to Interact actions. The hand just counts as "free" for Interact actions.

They're separate clauses.

If you can hold something in that hand, why couldn't you use it? We're just told you can't wield weapons.

If you can hold something in that hand, why couldn't you use it? We're just told you can't wield weapons.

It's very specific that you can hold items and goes on to make sure you know you can't wield items. The ONLY thing it allows for it holding: full stop. For anything else hand related, see first sentence.

"You can also hold another object in this hand (but you still can't use it to wield a weapon)." the bolded is ALL it gives you. The rest is just telling what you can't do.

You're not limited to Interact actions. The hand just counts as "free" for Interact actions.

Sure, but the second line ONLY allows you to hold an item and doesn't say you can use an item: it just goes out of it's way to make sure you don't try to use a weapon. Just because it doesn't put item by weapon in the quote doesn't mean item use is allowed.

If you can hold something in that hand, why couldn't you use it?

Look at Wielding Items: Core Rulebook pg. 272

"If you retrieve a two-handed item with only one hand, you still need to change your grip before you can wield or use it."

This makes it quite clear that you are able to hold something but not be able to use it.

"Some abilities require you to wield an item, typically a weapon. You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively. When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it around—you’re ready to use it. Other abilities might require you to merely carry or have an item. These apply as long as you have the item on your person; you don’t have to wield it."

If an ability requires you to wield/use it, you need to use the required hands: Nimble Shield Hand doesn't give you any hands to use just to hold things or interact actions. Now you qualify for abilities that "merely carry or have an item."

graystone wrote:

Why drag up and necro an old thread?

I've never understood this.

Why wouldn't you?

Why should I have to search through a dozen threads for something when it could have just been a couple threads?

Because often when an old thread is revived, people new to it start reading at the first page (of five or so), spot something that's by now totally dated but that they have an opinion about, and reply to that. So you get people arguing with people in the dim past.

If there was some kind of thing that warned you "you're replying to a really old post" or "you're replying to this thread that you didn't read to the end" that might be different. But right now, the signal to noise ratio of reviving old threads is just really bad.

You're not limited to Interact actions. The hand just counts as "free" for Interact actions.

They're separate clauses.

If you can hold something in that hand, why couldn't you use it? We're just told you can't wield weapons.

Your problem here is that using an item rarely comes without the need for an action and if that action is anything other than an Interact action then the hand won't count as Free.

So you'd need to find an action that doesn't require a free hand (spell-casting for example). Of course such an action could usually just as well be done with the other hand (that's presumably holding a weapon) so you aren't gaining much there (but you aren't meant to anyway).

Ravingdork wrote:

graystone wrote:

Why drag up and necro an old thread?

I've never understood this.

Why wouldn't you?

Why should I have to search through a dozen threads for something when it could have just been a couple threads?

Because often when an old thread is revived, people new to it start reading at the first page (of five or so), spot something that's by now totally dated but that they have an opinion about, and reply to that. So you get people arguing with people in the dim past.

If there was some kind of thing that warned you "you're replying to a really old post" or "you're replying to this thread that you didn't read to the end" that might be different. But right now, the signal to noise ratio of reviving old threads is just really bad.

Yes, but if you don't update those old threads, any time someone does a search to answer a question (as is heavily encouraged on these boards), they end up with the either mixed or wrong answers.

In short:

"wearing a toolkit" basically acts as a free hand that "holds" that toolkit.

So you only need 1 hand to actually use it.

If you have a short sword in one hand, you are wearing the tools, and the other hand is free you are basically using the free hand to "use" the tools.

If you are holding the tools in your hands you need 2 hands, one to hold htem one to use them.

Nimble Shield hand doesn't help in this interaction because it's basically functioning like a second "worn tools".

You can hold the tools there, instead of the bandolier or whatever, but you would still need an empty hand to use them.

Graystone, if we're told we can hold an item in that hand, and "You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively", why can't you use the one-handed item you're holding?

Again, Nimble Shield Hand doesn't restrict you to Interact actions. I think you're holding that up as something that isn't true.

Graystone, if we're told we can hold an item in that hand, and "You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively", why can't you use the one-handed item you're holding?

Again, Nimble Shield Hand doesn't restrict you to Interact actions. I think you're holding that up as something that isn't true.

It's bearing the shield that restricts you; you're beginning with restrictions already there. Then the feat opens up specific abilities: Interact & holding, with the clause that weapons cannot be wielded. Interact is a specific action, so nothing beyond that opened up there, and holding IMO doesn't imply using. I'd likely make an exception for "two hands free" actions where it's heavily implied one is just holding, i.e. w/ tools, but those would still require the other hand be free.

I wonder a bit at the specificity of the no-weapon clause, whether that means Paizo thought holding DID imply using, yet didn't want the feat to alter combat mechanics. Since Paizo (seems to) often add extra clarification like this, this doesn't niggle me.

Graystone, if we're told we can hold an item in that hand, and "You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively", why can't you use the one-handed item you're holding?

Again, Nimble Shield Hand doesn't restrict you to Interact actions. I think you're holding that up as something that isn't true.

Mate you're looking at this the wrong way. Holding an item is not the same as using it. So find the action you want to make and go from there.

In your case with BM then shroudb is correct that you don't quite get there, you could use your shield hand (with NSH) to hold it and then do the BM action with you other hand if that one is free.

You cannot however have worn tools and use the shield hand to do the BM action because the BM action (which is a separate distinct action) requires you to have a free hand and the NSH feat only makes that hand free for Interact actions.

Edit: slightly ninjad =)