Agents of Edgewatch Update

Porridge wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

I absolutely hate Disney and for my daughter's sake I would never buy an AP where you're a "Disney Princess".

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the thought is something like "young royalty coming of age to fight/defend/free their kingdom", possibly with a helping of "entertaining playful sidekick companions", rather than something that carries all of the usual (and heavily gender-laden) Disney tropes.

Does Eutropia Stavian count as a Disney Princess? Because it's pretty easy for your party to become a group of entertaining playful sidekick companions.

Uh, what? Eutropia does not join the party a single time in their adventures throughout the entire AP. I'd say Jade Regent has a far greater chance of making the party Ameiko's sidekicks than War for the Crown. Also, Ameiko should definitely count as a Disney princess. ;)

KitsuneWarlock wrote:

Porridge wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

I absolutely hate Disney and for my daughter's sake I would never buy an AP where you're a "Disney Princess".

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the thought is something like "young royalty coming of age to fight/defend/free their kingdom", possibly with a helping of "entertaining playful sidekick companions", rather than something that carries all of the usual (and heavily gender-laden) Disney tropes.

Does Eutropia Stavian count as a Disney Princess? Because it's pretty easy for your party to become a group of entertaining playful sidekick companions.

Uh, what? Eutropia does not join the party a single time in their adventures throughout the entire AP. I'd say Jade Regent has a far greater chance of making the party Ameiko's sidekicks than War for the Crown. Also, Ameiko should definitely count as a Disney princess. ;)

Or a Paizo princess?

Didn’t MLK say that “a riot is the voice of the unheard”.

Weird for someone to tell folks to go research MLK, when uh, he probably would have been fine with it. Also he was assassinated by Law Enforcement, so this isn’t exactly making the point you think you’re making.

King wasn't excusing the riots, he was explaining why they happened, and will continue to happen, until social justice is attained. This was in an interview with Chris Wallace, who disagreed with King's stance of non-violence.

King’s point, though subtle, is clear. He does not support violent tactics, including riots, but he argues that the way to stop citizens from rioting is to acknowledge and fix the conditions that they are rioting against. And in the larger context of that speech, he got a chance to explain how exactly that mending should occur.

source

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ThreeEyedSloth wrote:

Thank you.

Because you admitted that these issues were addressed by staff previously but were primarily ignored or brushed aside, what steps will you be taking to stop that from happening again in the future?

Seconding this, hard. It’s a killer apology to be sure, but knowing how this has meaningfully changed would go a long way to soothe some fears; it’s easy to just say sorry, y’know?

Bringing these posts back to this page.

Thanks for reposting that question, Grankless. I thought the thread was still locked down, only to notice now that I'd missed a couple hundred posts over the weekend. Apologies for my delay in getting back to this question.

Honestly, it's a lot of things.

Step one, speaking personally, it involves being less arrogant.

When concerns about Agents of Edgewatch were first brought to my attention, over a year ago when there would still have been time to make modifications, I should have listened more and tried to get a better sense of the root cause of the concerns. I didn't dismiss those concerns out of hand--rather I assumed that we would be able to address them by being careful about the subject matter in general.

I have enormous faith in Paizo's editors and developers. Just as we have handled delicate subject matter previously (for the most part successfully), I figured at the time that if the Adventure Path didn't focus on issues of brutality but instead kept the focus on mystery and urban exploration, we'd simply avoid stepping into the worst pitfalls and avoid problematic issues related to real-world police voilence.

As I said in the original statement, that's a perspective rooted in privilege, and is at the root of my own blind spot with this campaign. I figured that our conscientious and kind staff would simply work around the problem, without realizing that the issue at its core was the problem.

Which, in a way, comes down to arrogance. So that's step one. Listening to concerns and really trying to get at the root of the concern, rather than plan a clever way around it or papering over it.

Over the last few years, we've also been adding more hierarchy in the management structure of Paizo editorial. When we started this 18 years ago we had about 6 full-time magazine editors. Now we have more than five times that many people. That creates a wider gulf in accessibility to the publisher than there has been in the past. With more direct management of employees by someone who works with them on a regular basis, employees should have greater access to voices within department management to champion their concerns all the way up the line.

About a year ago, we started regular weekly Creative Team meetings so that every member of the individual teams can participate more fully in product decisions, Adventure Path themes, etc. In the past these things have mostly been decided by editorial upper management, but now it is easier than it has ever been for members of the creative staff to pitch product ideas, raise concerns before the larger group, and participate from top to bottom.

Another valuable tool for us has been the use of "sensitivity readers," members of marginalized communities who we pay to review our material before it is released. This process predates Agents of Edgewatch, but I can say that some of the feedback we've received from our sensitivity readers on this project specifically has been enormously helpful not just to smooth over the rough edges for Agents of Edgewatch, but for the entire department as a whole.

It's all an ongoing process. I've been working in professional game publishing for almost 20 years at this point. In the last few years, our staff has grown more racially diverse than it it has ever been before. We have more women--and more women leading departments--than ever before, and that's been helpful, too. The variety of perspectives our diverse staff brings to the table has been great for the department, for the company, and for our game products. I've learned as much in the last 5 years from these folks than I did in the many years beforehand.

We'll still stumble from time to time. We'll still make mistakes. But we will always remain dedicated to making the best, most inclusive RPG products we can, and we'll never stop pushing ourselves to be better.

Incidentally, one other thing I wanted to come back to is the "Sherlock Holmes" issue. It's probably more accurate to say that the city watch aspect of the campaign theme was primarily inspired by two other sources:

The old TSR novel "Nightwatch," by Robin Wayne Bailey

and

The graphic novel "From Hell," by Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell.

The former is such a niche reference there seemed little point in referencing it in the original blog post, and the latter was simplified into "Sherlock Holmeses," which was probably one simplification too many.

Another valuable tool for us has been the use of "sensitivity readers," members of marginalized communities who we pay to review our material before it is released. This process predates Agents of Edgewatch, but I can say that some of the feedback we've received from our sensitivity readers on this project specifically has been enormously helpful not just to smooth over the rough edges for Agents of Edgewatch, but for the entire department as a whole.

I was really hoping this would be the case, so yay.

I rather like the response to the concerns a segment of the player base has raised, both the original answer (owning mistakes, having a clear plan on how to move forward) and this clarification of the measures taken.

Another valuable tool for us has been the use of "sensitivity readers," members of marginalized communities who we pay to review our material before it is released. This process predates Agents of Edgewatch, but I can say that some of the feedback we've received from our sensitivity readers on this project specifically has been enormously helpful not just to smooth over the rough edges for Agents of Edgewatch, but for the entire department as a whole.

Perhaps part of the process could be running things by those "sensitivity readers" at an earlier stage to get feedback on the basic concept before you go ahead with it.

I'm bit confused by idea that you can only play people of your own countries?

I mean as if I would ever get chance to play finnish people in pathfinder :p

Except Europe can be said to be well represented in Golarion.

Salamileg wrote:

I for one, would unironically love a Disney Princess kind of AP.

I would pounce* like a snow leopard upon this thing. Triply so if I had the opportunity to contribute to it. ^_^

*Daintily, of course.

Me too, and not daintily! I would love to write a Disney Princess adventure.

Okay, finally read through the whole blog and all the comments. Thank you, Erik Mona, for such a thoughtful blog. I'm from Minneapolis, and have been processing and re-processing so many questions in this past month.

I have been looking forward to the idea of this AP not as a police AP, but as a detective agency centered in Absalom. I am totally excited about running it that way. Thank you for providing a players guide with options for those of us who want to take this AP and slant it in a different direction, and for caring about social justice in a real and proactive fashion. It makes me excited not only as a GM and consumer of Paizo products, but also as one of your occasional freelancers.

Hmm

CorvusMask wrote:

I'm bit confused by idea that you can only play people of your own countries?

I mean as if I would ever get chance to play finnish people in pathfinder :p

Except Europe can be said to be well represented in Golarion.

"Europe" isn't a single culture and I dunno if Finns count as majority culture since there are only 6-7 million of them with majority of them living in finland ;p Like if I should only play humans of cultures close to mine, none of Golarion cultures really fall into stereotype of "backwater super depressed socially anxious but brutally honest" people

I guess its not big deal since I mostly play non humans anyway ;D

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

I'm bit confused by idea that you can only play people of your own countries?

I mean as if I would ever get chance to play finnish people in pathfinder :p

Except Europe can be said to be well represented in Golarion.

"Europe" isn't a single culture and I dunno if Finns count as majority culture since there are only 6-7 million of them with majority of them living in finland ;p Like if I should only play humans of cultures close to mine, none of Golarion cultures really fall into stereotype of "backwater super depressed socially anxious but brutally honest" people

I guess its not big deal since I mostly play non humans anyway ;D

... well you still got Kaleva...

Saluti

I lived in extra territorial Vatican property for 3.5 years abs know that Tuacany is very diffwrenr from Lazio which is different from Sicilia which is different from Castilla and the Gallego regions of thr Iberian peninsula.

However, that doesnt mean that there could not be a respectful development of Meso snd Native and Hispanic culture esqe places in Golarion. Out of the currenr TTRPGs I would trust Paizo the most to do so in a respectful manner.

Erik Mona wrote:

Another valuable tool for us has been the use of "sensitivity readers," members of marginalized communities who we pay to review our material before it is released. This process predates Agents of Edgewatch, but I can say that some of the feedback we've received from our sensitivity readers on this project specifically has been enormously helpful not just to smooth over the rough edges for Agents of Edgewatch, but for the entire department as a whole.

Perhaps part of the process could be running things by those "sensitivity readers" at an earlier stage to get feedback on the basic concept before you go ahead with it.

That's happening.

As I said in the original statement, that's a perspective rooted in privilege, and is at the root of my own blind spot with this campaign. I figured that our conscientious and kind staff would simply work around the problem, without realizing that the issue at its core was the problem.

Here is where I am confused. If the issue is that the very idea of PC police is objectionable to the point that this AP should not have been made, why is it still being released? There is still time to not release it. Yes, it would hurt the bottom line, but is that really any worse than releasing a product that you have stated was offensive and feel the need to apologize for? (And there is the very real possibility that there are people who would pay for you to not release it)

Incidentally, one other thing I wanted to come back to is the "Sherlock Holmes" issue. It's probably more accurate to say that the city watch aspect of the campaign theme was primarily inspired by two other sources:

The old TSR novel "Nightwatch," by Robin Wayne Bailey

and

The graphic novel "From Hell," by Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell.

The former is such a niche reference there seemed little point in referencing it in the original blog post, and the latter was simplified into "Sherlock Holmeses," which was probably one simplification too many.

Thank you, that's awesome! While I haven't read Moore's book I've seen its (loose) movie-adaptation with Johnny Deep, the late Ian Holm, and Hagrid-actor Robbie Coltrane many, many times. Such a great movie, and what a great reference. This alters the degree to which I thought this AP would even involve standard police work, given how infrequent to non-existent Depp's use of the badge is in that film.

The cover art to your AP's inaugural issue seemed to be a great homage to the Bow Street Runners- another British 19th century reference, albeit not exactly co-temporaneous to Moore's London.

Erik Mona wrote:

As I said in the original statement, that's a perspective rooted in privilege, and is at the root of my own blind spot with this campaign. I figured that our conscientious and kind staff would simply work around the problem, without realizing that the issue at its core was the problem.

Here is where I am confused. If the issue is that the very idea of PC police is objectionable to the point that this AP should not have been made, why is it still being released? There is still time to not release it. Yes, it would hurt the bottom line, but is that really any worse than releasing a product that you have stated was offensive and feel the need to apologize for? (And there is the very real possibility that there are people who would pay for you to not release it)

His exact words to that effect were "we cannot afford to cancel or delay the adventure path." It's not about the bottom line if a decision made might be financial unsound enough to sink the company.

They are already taking a big hit to their finances due to the pandemic, I'm sure, and are committing to a further one to donate some of the proceeds as they can.

A small business getting every project and statement right is rare. Being able to pull what amounts to probably 30-40% of their annual revenue, sunk costs aside, would be a pretty privileged ideal. At the very least what you hope would be a notable amount of staff being let go because one of the most progressive game companies missed the mark on an adventure beat. That's pretty intense.

The world is not perfect and our ideas of a perfect world are vast and varied. The fictional world of Golarion reflects this, albeit in often exaggerated and fantastical ways. The problems and issues we face here in our real world should also be faced in our fiction, for if we make an issue or theme taboo, then we eliminate the opportunity for investigation and discussion. Our games can provide a safe space for us to feel into morally sticky situations, so that we can better understand the nuance, so we can better understand ourselves.

I understand if for some, the themes of policing currently hit close to home, are too real. However, I do see our fictions as part of the conversation we as humanity should be having, to increase our empathy, sensitivity, and understanding. I hope we can, as a community, continue to engender mature conversations about the hard topics, and that our favored pastime can continue to be a safe place of exploration and discovery, and most of all, fun.

I feel it is better to help someone that might not need it than to abandon someone when they need help.

I feel the same way, but not taking into account the possible consequences is thoughtless. While not reported as much, there are still riots going on.
There are communities that are being devastated by riots still and a measure that could harm this communities is not one to be taken lightly. Specially, when there is alternatives like Legal Defense Funds or Community Reconstruction Fund.

Humbly,
Yawar

I feel the same way, but not taking into account the possible consequences is thoughtless. While not reported as much, there are still riots going on.

There are communities that are being devastated by riots still and a measure that could harm this communities is not one to be taken lightly. Specially, when there is alternatives like Legal Defense Funds or Community Reconstruction Fund.

Humbly,
Yawar

There’s entire populations devastated by police, and have been for generations.

If you believe you’re being a voice of reason, all I can tell you is that you’re doing a great job of trying to silence people with legitimate grievances with your policing which charities are “worthy”.

Your centrism is profoundly useful for upholding the status quo, which is precisely the problem.

I feel the same way, but not taking into account the possible consequences is thoughtless. While not reported as much, there are still riots going on.

There are communities that are being devastated by riots still and a measure that could harm this communities is not one to be taken lightly. Specially, when there is alternatives like Legal Defense Funds or Community Reconstruction Fund.

The vast majority of people arrested during protests are just protesting, not potential murderers or even rioters. Many of them, especially in poor neighborhoods, people who can't afford bail and will lose jobs or worse if they stay in jail.

YawarFiesta wrote:

I feel the same way, but not taking into account the possible consequences is thoughtless. While not reported as much, there are still riots going on.

There are communities that are being devastated by riots still and a measure that could harm this communities is not one to be taken lightly. Specially, when there is alternatives like Legal Defense Funds or Community Reconstruction Fund.

Humbly,
Yawar

There’s entire populations devastated by police, and have been for generations.

If you believe you’re being a voice of reason, all I can tell you is that you’re doing a great job of trying to silence people with legitimate grievances with your policing which charities are “worthy”.

Your centrism is profoundly useful for upholding the status quo, which is precisely the problem.

How I am silencing them exactly? By pointing out that they are still riots going on? By saying that mass bailouts might be thoughtless?

There are plenty of people from marginalized communities who have lost their livelihoods for a fight that was forced upon by subversive elements in which could had been peaceful protest.

Who lied to you told you by saying that being centrist is preserving the status quo? I am not saying that the protest was unfounded. On the contrary, I am all for police reform, including de-militarization, implementation of serene police or de-escalation force, and universal police cams, and consider it necessary. However, defunding the police will bring mob rule and lynching as it always happens when there is no police.

Humbly,
Yawar

Who lied to you told you that being centrist is preserving the status quo?

History.

However, defunding the police will bring mob rule and lynching as it always happens when there is no police.

It may be worth doing a bit of reading in regard to how police responses to lynchings in the early C19th US "solved" that problem.

See also the Lynwood Vikings and recent case of Robert Fuller: this is not a purely historical or theoretical matter.

With five black men hung outside courthouses in recent weeks, ruled “suicides” by police, seems mobs and lynchings are going to happen regardless.

The vast majority of people arrested weren’t arrested for rioting, they were arrested for protesting. So again, I have to wonder, what big historical changes have been driven by centrism, not causing a fuss, and quietly hoping people in power will just one day become better people?

Because every major progressive movement victory has protesting, rioting and civil disobedience to drive the change. Read a history book.

However, defunding the police will bring mob rule and lynching as it always happens when there is no police.

Defunding the police doesn't mean removing police entirely. It means reallocating some funds to other governmental agencies that are better equipped to handle situations that police currently do, like mental health and social workers.

With five black men hung outside courthouses in recent weeks, ruled “suicides” by police, seems mobs and lynchings are going to happen regardless.

Could you please provide a source for the article, that one flew under my radar.

The vast majority of people arrested weren’t arrested for rioting, they were arrested for protesting.

Again, source please. As far as I know protesting is legal in the USA. However, if they are facing false charges for rioting, a Legal Defense Fund might be even more useful since the Public Defender system sometimes leaves much to be desire.

So again, I have to wonder, what big historical changes have been driven by centrism, not causing a fuss, and quietly hoping people in power will just one day become better people?

Because every major progressive movement victory has protesting, rioting and civil disobedience to drive the change. Read a history book.

Okay, first centrism means someone who takes policies from right and them left. Centrism doesn't mean fence sitting. For example, I've always agree with same sex marriage and adoption rights, does that make me a leftist suddenly?

Second, please, don't mix civil disobedience and protest with rioting. Perhaps I am being simplistic, but rioting implies the use of force and violence and that legitimizes the use of force against you in the eyes of the spectator. If anything its poor tactics. I would recommend you read Rules for Radicals or watch a video about it if you are short on time.

Humbly,
Yawar

Also, it is their right to not announce a number. Even 0.5% is better than 0%

Without announcing a number, they shouldn't have said this at all. If I tell all my friends that I'm donating a portion of my income to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and that portion turns out to be $1, all I've done is try to deceive people into thinking I'm virtuous. Expressions of commitment are only meaningful if the commitments are meaningful.

This thread is spiraling out of control. Since it's already doing so, I'll point out that Paizo seemed to go to great lengths to bring in a sensitivity reader for their new rulebooks or whatever and even that wasn't even. The irony of ironies. Now, you can't even just write an adventure without having to apologize for it.

Riddle me this. If Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder are so exclusionary, then why were generations of people invited into and welcomed with open arms?

Now, all of a sudden, everything is evil and racist. This is why things are better with the freedom of niche products. Once the masses start to get involved, all they brought with it were a bucket filled with accusations and complaints.

coyotegospel wrote:

Also, it is their right to not announce a number. Even 0.5% is better than 0%

Without announcing a number, they shouldn't have said this at all. If I tell all my friends that I'm donating a portion of my income to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and that portion turns out to be $1, all I've done is try to deceive people into thinking I'm virtuous. Expressions of commitment are only meaningful if the commitments are meaningful.

Because more often than not, as soon as they announce the percentage or number, they'll get more cries of "why do you think a number that low is acceptable?" Doesn't even matter the amount.

Paizo has been very transparent through this blog and about the financial impacts of their decisions here. I earnestly believe they do not have any obligation to announce as much as they have, let alone more intimate and specific details of their fiscal situation.

But then, I was raised so strongly in the belief that charitable giving needs to be kept secret and not announced for public gain... so strongly in fact that I personally feel uncomfortable reporting charitable donations on my taxes. So it's possible that I'm bringing my own hangups to this conversation here and what I have to say is more defensive than relevant. If so, apologies.

Riddle me this. If Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder are so exclusionary, then why were generations of people invited into and welcomed with open arms?

Dunno, it's still an overwhelmingly white and male hobby, so something is clearly not working as you describe.

I lived in extra territorial Vatican property for 3.5 years abs know that Tuacany is very diffwrenr from Lazio which is different from Sicilia which is different from Castilla and the Gallego regions of thr Iberian peninsula.

However, that doesnt mean that there could not be a respectful development of Meso snd Native and Hispanic culture esqe places in Golarion. Out of the currenr TTRPGs I would trust Paizo the most to do so in a respectful manner.

I mean it is hard to boast of inclusivity when a major grouping of the Americas in general and the US in particular is left out.

Now, you can't even just write an adventure without having to apologize for it.

Of course they can. They've apologized for one adventure out of nearly a hundred or more.

No one is apologizing for Curse of the Crimson Throne being about a political leader encouraging the spread of a plague while common folk protest law enforcement overreaches.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

With five black men hung outside courthouses in recent weeks, ruled “suicides” by police, seems mobs and lynchings are going to happen regardless.

Could you please provide a source for the article, that one flew under my radar.

Here's a source a little over a week old; I think there's been another one or two since, but I don't have the time to do more news sleuthing right now.

They have at least 2 Hispanic game designers. One who developed La Llorona for 1e

And Diego did a great job on her design.

coyotegospel wrote:

Also, it is their right to not announce a number. Even 0.5% is better than 0%

Without announcing a number, they shouldn't have said this at all. If I tell all my friends that I'm donating a portion of my income to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and that portion turns out to be $1, all I've done is try to deceive people into thinking I'm virtuous. Expressions of commitment are only meaningful if the commitments are meaningful.

There are many for whom even $1 is a significant donation to make from what little 'income' they may have...

Respectfully,

--C.