Black Lives Matter

I'm honestly flabbergasted by tone deafness of "What about white people?" some posters show when the topic is about police brutality that is directed at black people more often than any other minorities :/

Like, sure, everyone needs to be treated equally, but whole point of movement is to bring attention that one group is treated VERY differently

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

Third(yeah I'm not being very composed right now, so my thoughts are coming in pieces) that people should realize is that sure yeah, Native Americans are being killed in Brazil and Canada because government's greed and other minorities in USA also face prejudices. But how the heck it is reasonable for community outraged by things happening to their community to be like "And also other people being persecuted as well"? Like how is it reasonable that black people have to champion for every persecuted minority and can't demand justice for themselves? :/

I'm honestly flabbergasted by tone deafness of "What about white people?" some posters show when the topic is about police brutality that is directed at black people more often than any other minorities :/

Like, sure, everyone needs to be treated equally, but whole point of movement is to bring attention that one group is treated VERY differently

I'm ethnically 'white'.

I've seen more white shoplifters, frauds, cheats, scammers, etc go through the doors at work than any person of any color.

Yet people of color are ALWAYS seem to be the ones that people insist on 'watching for mischief'.

I think it's crap.

In fact, there's been quite a *few* times where a team of shoplifters will follow a person of color who has 'distracted' the store from the white folks loading up their cart with the expensive booze, heading for the front door on the strength of that 'distraction'.

And they're always surprised that they got caught, because some of us *pay attention* to the criminals, and should treat our customers with courtesy and dignity.

Meanwhile, the person of color is reasonably and understandably upset over being watched.

Back during the Anti-Iraq protests, one of the people from our LARP group, a caucasian man, was taken into custody and we did not hear from him for a week. The horror story he related about treatment by the police still haunts me.

He wasn't misbehaving, he was following the instructions of law enforcement, and they STILL threw him into custody along with several thousand other people who were also protesting.

Did he get special treatment because of his skin? Maybe? But he made darn sure to move out of the city after that, and stopped coming to the LARP because of it.

In South Africa, they had a Truth and Reconciliation Commission at the end of Apartheid.

Why can't we do something similar?

LEARN from our mistakes, and grow?

In South Africa, they had a Truth and Reconciliation Commission at the end of Apartheid.

Why can't we do something similar?

LEARN from our mistakes, and grow?

I think Trevor Noah put that rather well: In South Africa they talk about terrible things they did in the past, in America people react with "What, I didn't take part in slavery, I wasn't there" and take bringing it up as accusation rather than acknowledgement.

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

In South Africa, they had a Truth and Reconciliation Commission at the end of Apartheid.

Why can't we do something similar?

LEARN from our mistakes, and grow?

I think Trevor Noah put that rather well: In South Africa they talk about terrible things they did in the past, in America people react with "What, I didn't take part in slavery, I wasn't there" and take bringing it up as accusation rather than acknowledgement.

Perhaps we need to take an honest, deep look at ourselves as a nation, not just from slavery, but from post-Reconstruction, to the civil rights movement, to the modern day and realize just how *much* our country has benefited from integration versus segregation?

And then try to figure out the road ahead, working together for a better future?

EDIT: It won't be easy.

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

Jason Tondro’s a boss. Good share.

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

This is what I've been trying to say about cop stories in both this and other threads, only said much better and more eloquently.

People who like saying All Lives Matter would do well to read this.

Erik Mona wrote:

We will be addressing Agents of Edgewatch directly in an upcoming blog. There are many sensitivities related to it that we want to do what we can to address. This statement wasn't the appropriate place to go into further detail, but further detail will be forthcoming.

Very curious to see this, as the existence of that AP feels directly opposed to this statement. Pathfinder is, often, a game where you kill people, and spending the next six months releasing content for sale where you play as heroic cops doing exactly that reads as... well, either careless or two-faced.

I for one look forward to Agents of Edgewatch. For some reason, it reminds me of Terry Pratchett's Night Guard. For most of the AP's, PC's are always being drawn into helping communities as the government is always overwhelmed. In movies, superheroes are needed because the government is either too corrupt or ineffectual to help. This time, you as a copper can help solve crimes. Yeah, you could go full hellknight or Judge Dredd but it's also an opportunity to go full community policing and CSI Absalom. Instead of raising a rebel army, you could create goodwill so much so that people want to tell you information instead of beating it out of them or coercing them. Plus, on a more cynical note, Paizo has sunk a lot of time and effort into it already. I would rather they not rush into an AP that is badly edited and slapdash.

Throughout our nation’s history, there have been laws which have disproportionately impacted the disadvantaged, minorities, and anyone who those in power felt needed to be controlled (Missouri Compromise, Jim Crow, prohibition, the crime bill of 1994, and a plethora more). The 1994 reference is the bill which can arguably be implicated as a major culprit of injustice in our current legal system, considering its drastic impact on minority groups or disadvantaged people in this country. It’s not the end all of horrible laws, but it’s significance is plain to see.

In order to make meaningful change in equality, we have to make meaningful changes in the laws in conjunction. In order to do so, we have to hold our leaders to account, particularly so since many of the ones who passed said laws are still in (or are seeking) power. Without a change in those laws, any progress made can easily be circumvented back to the existing status quo.

There is a lot I love about my (our) country. I believe in its promise, with my clouded naivety. I believe in many of its heroes. I also believe that said promise has been suppressed for far too long, and we should attempt to remedy that. In order to do that, we must first learn and admit that a problem exists. For many of us, that may still be a process. Here is to hoping for a collective embrace of what our country COULD BE, so that we can help get it there.

Throughout our nation’s history, there have been laws which have disproportionately impacted the disadvantaged, minorities, and anyone who those in power felt needed to be controlled (Missouri Compromise, Jim Crow, prohibition, the crime bill of 1994, and a plethora more). The 1994 reference is the bill which can arguably be implicated as a major culprit of injustice in our current legal system, considering its drastic impact on minority groups or disadvantaged people in this country. It’s not the end all of horrible laws, but it’s significance is plain to see.

In order to make meaningful change in equality, we have to make meaningful changes in the laws in conjunction. In order to do so, we have to hold our leaders to account, particularly so since many of the ones who passed said laws are still in (or are seeking) power. Without a change in those laws, any progress made can easily be circumvented back to the existing status quo.

There is a lot I love about my (our) country. I believe in its promise, with my clouded naivety. I believe in many of its heroes. I also believe that said promise has been suppressed for far too long, and we should attempt to remedy that. In order to do that, we must first learn and admit that a problem exists. For many of us, that may still be a process. Here is to hoping for a collective embrace of what our country COULD BE, so that we can help get it there.

The Supreme Court needs to reverse past decisions with regard to qualified immunity.

The Supreme Court needs to reverse past decisions with regard to qualified immunity.

Thing about qualified immunity is that it can be easily waived by an act of the state legislature. The State government, as the sovereign, can choose not to assert it's sovereign rights, thus allowing the courts to enforcing the laws against it's agents.

Vote in your local elections.

Can your Premier Event Coordinator say the words Black lives matter

First, no one owns the rights to make me say anything. I’m not a puppet dancing for your pleasure. I’ll let my actions speak for me.

Perhaps you missed the posting the other day, I resigned from the position, before any of the above happened mind you so it was certainly not in response to Paizo’s statement. There are an awful lot of band-wagon jumpers who are sitting safety and comfortably in their house spewing rhetoric on the internet and none of that is going to matter tomorrow, the next day, next week, or next year, if that’s all you do is talk. You don’t have to join a protest to support the cause. You don’t have to march to want justice. But, you have to do something. That something is up to you to decide. I will not be forced or pressured to do what you want me to. I will decide for myself what I will do in response to the injustice. Thank you

organized wrote:

Can your Premier Event Coordinator say the words Black lives matter

First, no one owns the rights to make me say anything. I’m not a puppet dancing for your pleasure. I’ll let my actions speak for me.

Perhaps you missed the posting the other day, I resigned from the position, before any of the above happened mind you so it was certainly not in response to Paizo’s statement. There are an awful lot of band-wagon jumpers who are sitting safety and comfortably in their house spewing rhetoric on the internet and none of that is going to matter tomorrow, the next day, next week, or next year, if that’s all you do is talk. You don’t have to join a protest to support the cause. You don’t have to march to want justice. But, you have to do something. That something is up to you to decide. I will not be forced or pressured to do what you want me to. I will decide for myself what I will do in response to the injustice. Thank you

I wasn't asking you, nor was I asking you to do anything. It was a rhetorical question directed to Lisa. My third question is the real one for her. "If you were Black gamer would you want to play Pathfinder Society, when it's high level leadership cannot get behind a simple call for solidarity against injustice, without making it about something else?"

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

As a non-USAn who grew up in an environment that had different ethnic dividing lines, around which there was also ongoing violence, murder, and police brutality, I am impressed with that as aspirational objectives for this AP and really hope Agents of Edgewatch can deliver.

A common theme of adventures, especially high fantasy type adventures so prevalent in Pathfinder and other TTRPGs is fighting against, and eventually overcoming, injustices. I am happy to see Paizo taking a strong stand, at least verbally, with this announcement and I am cautiously optimistic with regards to how the upcoming AP books will be handled.

“I do not pretend to understand the moral universe. The arc is a long one. My eye reaches but little ways. I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by experience of sight. I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends toward justice.”

-Theodore Parker (1853)

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

This is extremely worrying and I hope the fact that Tondro is not actually involved in this AP means he is incorrect about it. Absalom has only just abolished slavery, pretending that a force which undoubtedly existed to protect the property ownership of slave-owners and would have violently participated in the capture of runaway slaves is some sort of beacon of tolerance and ethics is beyond parody.

Experiences from Life as a White Man In Berkeley, California:

(1) Walking alone at night, the police stop me and ask me where I'm going. I answer. They ask what's in the bag. I answer. They let me go with no further interruption nor questions.
Walking alone at night with my black friend in the same area. The police stop us and ask us where we're going. He's well-dressed, in slacks and a polo shirt, as he's on his way to work. They don't believe him. They put us against the patrol cars, frisk us, check my bag, ask him several more times where he's going, trying to get him to slip up before finally letting us go, with a vague warning that they, "Don't want to catch us again."

(2) In the park at night, my friend picks a fight with a group of black guys. It's a bad fight. People on both sides need to go to the hospital. The cops show up. They arrest all the black guys. They offer my white friend a ride to the hospital to "make sure he's OK". I even tell them that my friend started it. It doesn't matter. The black guys spend the night in jail. We don't.

(3) Pulled over with my Asian friend driving. Cop asks us whether we have any weapons. We laugh at him. He gets mad and threatens us, then lets us drive on.
Pulled over with my black friend driving. Cop asks us whether we have any weapons. We stay respectful. He makes us get out of the car and searches it.

I've had dozens of encounters with police. I've had only a handful where a black man was involved. Every time a black man was involved the situation was measurably worse. So telling me that it's "only a few bad apples" is telling me that I've been astonishingly unlucky in my life.

I am skeptical of that assessment.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

This is extremely worrying and I hope the fact that Tondro is not actually involved in this AP means he is incorrect about it. Absalom has only just abolished slavery, pretending that a force which undoubtedly existed to protect the property ownership of slave-owners and would have violently participated in the capture of runaway slaves is some sort of beacon of tolerance and ethics is beyond parody.

Slavery was allowed in Absalom but it was relegated to certain specific sections, not the city as a whole from my remembrances.

Seeing as how it mostly had to do with slave merchants visiting the city (taking people as slaves from the city is explicitly called out as something not allowed while slavers were still allowed to operate) I highly doubt the city guard enforced and recaptured slaves for them, that’s literally the Hellknight Order of Chain’s schtick.

They certainly weren’t formed to serve slavers.

In Cheliax or Katapesh this would be a different story, but Slavery is not a core part of Absalom’s ecology like those two countries.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

This is extremely worrying and I hope the fact that Tondro is not actually involved in this AP means he is incorrect about it. Absalom has only just abolished slavery, pretending that a force which undoubtedly existed to protect the property ownership of slave-owners and would have violently participated in the capture of runaway slaves is some sort of beacon of tolerance and ethics is beyond parody.

It might be relevant that Edgewatch is explicitly a newly-formed branch of the Absalom City Watch, one that came into existence after the end of legal slavery. It might well be that the PCs will be in a position to define a new direction and build a new culture there.

silversarcasm wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

This is extremely worrying and I hope the fact that Tondro is not actually involved in this AP means he is incorrect about it. Absalom has only just abolished slavery, pretending that a force which undoubtedly existed to protect the property ownership of slave-owners and would have violently participated in the capture of runaway slaves is some sort of beacon of tolerance and ethics is beyond parody.

Slavery was allowed in Absalom but it was relegated to certain specific sections, not the city as a whole from my remembrances.

Seeing as how it mostly had to do with slave merchants visiting the city (taking people as slaves from the city is explicitly called out as something not allowed while slavers were still allowed to operate) I highly doubt the city guard enforced and recaptured slaves for them, that’s literally the Hellknight Order of Chain’s schtick.

They certainly weren’t formed to serve slavers.

In Cheliax or Katapesh this would be a different story, but Slavery is not a core part of Absalom’s ecology like those two countries.

The 'certain sections' you are thinking about is probably Misery Row, or 'the slave pits' which operated as the core slave trading market of Absalom.

It's right next to the Coins district in which the guard, known as the 'token guard' are noted to only really do anything if paid well by a private party, say a property owner. And people were property.

I am holding out a small hope that agents of edgewatch will be about this, that you'll come to realise that most of the 'criminals' are ex-slaves who have been disenfranchised and brutalised by the people you work for, that they are justified, and you, despite your best intentions, have ended up on the side of evil. Statements like Tondro's are slowly making that hope slip away.

Although I am wary of businesses out there only now making these statements of support for Black Lives Matter, I am more reassured by Paizo's ground level and cultural support for diverse perspectives in their art and publishing. I think those integrated actions are what are really usefull.

But it also must be said, in an ongoing refrain, Black Lives Matter. The more people that can say it and know what it means,the better off we will all be.
White supremacy must end. The construct of whiteness must be dismantled. Go Gamers!

Rysky wrote:

silversarcasm wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

An excellent view of Agents of Edgewatch in light of this.

This is extremely worrying and I hope the fact that Tondro is not actually involved in this AP means he is incorrect about it. Absalom has only just abolished slavery, pretending that a force which undoubtedly existed to protect the property ownership of slave-owners and would have violently participated in the capture of runaway slaves is some sort of beacon of tolerance and ethics is beyond parody.

Slavery was allowed in Absalom but it was relegated to certain specific sections, not the city as a whole from my remembrances.

Seeing as how it mostly had to do with slave merchants visiting the city (taking people as slaves from the city is explicitly called out as something not allowed while slavers were still allowed to operate) I highly doubt the city guard enforced and recaptured slaves for them, that’s literally the Hellknight Order of Chain’s schtick.

They certainly weren’t formed to serve slavers.

In Cheliax or Katapesh this would be a different story, but Slavery is not a core part of Absalom’s ecology like those two countries.

The 'certain sections' you are thinking about is probably Misery Row, or 'the slave pits' which operated as the core slave trading market of Absalom.

It's right next to the Coins district in which the guard, known as the 'token guard' are noted to only really do anything if paid well by a private party, say a property owner. And people were property.

I am holding out a small hope that agents of edgewatch will be about this, that you'll come to realise that most of the 'criminals' are ex-slaves who have been disenfranchised and brutalised by the people you work for, that they are justified, and you, despite your best intentions, have ended up on the side of evil. Statements like Tondro's are slowly making that hope slip away.

And it’s also noted that the “Token Guard” explicitly do not go into Misery Row.

As for Tondro these parts stick out to me,

Instead, let’s use a Pathfinder Adventure Path—our flagship line—to show what good law enforcement could be! Let’s show men and women from diverse backgrounds living in a neighborhood they know and protecting people they know from power structures that want to exploit them. 4/-

Let’s show police who serve, who protect. Who are public servants. Who don’t go masked, who don’t hide their badge numbers, who work within rules that make violence a last resort not the first resort, and who are held accountable for failure. 5/-

I might suggest that with regard to the upcoming AP and people’s comments here about it that Paizo use it as an opportunity to portray law enforcement in the honorable way in which people would like to see them perform their duties rather than portraying them as evil or corrupt. In my view, only the hate-filled would have a problem with that concept. Besides, Paizo already has evil law enforcers - the Hell Knights.

Folks, the discussion here is really important, but this thread needs some moderation and I am going to lock it until such time that we can go through and clean up some things.

Removed posts and their replies.

Many arguments against the importance of focusing on the Black Lives Matter movement assume that saying “Black Lives Matter” implies that other lives somehow matter less. This is not the case. Saying "all lives matter" asks us to divert attention away from the issues uniquely affecting Black communities that urgently and immediately need our focus and solidarity. The use of "all lives matter" minimizes the experience and lives of Black people in America. We can’t fight for all lives until we have ensured Black lives matter.

We feel that these arguments do not give the long-neglected issues of racism, police brutality, and systemic oppression the deference and support that we intend with our statement. We have therefore removed such posts.

Political threads are generally not allowed on Paizo.com. We recognize the current situation creates the unique need for us to make an exception to this rule. Please respect the purpose and intent of our other forums, and we will do our best to maintain this space for discussion, support, and sharing of resources.

This thread is now unlocked. Please continue with respect to the importance of this issue, and keep content in a spirit that recognizes the need to stand with Black communities especially so at this time.