Tales of Lost Omens: The World Expands

I was going to say something about two of the characters being referred to as a "degenerate" and a "savage" until I reached the end of the story and realized we were looking into the mind of a villainous narrator.

Paizo really needs to start an adventure path in the Magaambya.

Oh, I like this, Mzali has been a place I've wanted to take the fight too for some time, though Usaro was further up my list. Since the latter seems to have been taken care of however...well this should get interesting.

I'm curious to see what Adventure Paths follow Age of Ashes and Extinction Curse.

It is so good to read Tim Pratt working in Golarion again. Loved this one and the last.

I was going to say something about two of the characters being referred to as a "degenerate" and a "savage" until I reached the end of the story and realized we were looking into the mind of a villainous narrator.

Paizo really needs to start an adventure path in the Magaambya.

I would 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th (etc etc) that statement. I’d enjoy the HECK out of such an adventure path.

Please paizo, please STRONGLY consider this.

Dean

I enjoyed this story very much. Now I too want to see some adventures in the oldest academy of arcane learning.

The Deathless Child Walkena is the one from Undeads Unleashed, right? That's a minor divinity that walks among mortals. I hope to see even more about it and Magaambya as well. Old Mage is among one of my favorite npcs and I hope he is alive so we can venture with him in an adventure.

Adding my voice to the Magaambya choir. I'd love an AP set in the Expanse that actually starts out there and stays there. The beauty of the Magaambya is that it has room for both local PC's and those from anywhere in the Inner Sea.

This is great, I love the street-level look at the academy and its practices!

I immediately want to read the novel that would sprout from this, just like I felt the other day when I read Tim's story about Ishaani and the efreeti.

Yeah, if we could do an AP where the PCs help the Magaambya, that would seriously ring my bell... and it could help flesh out parts of the Expanse the way Rise of the Runelords fleshed out Varisia...

And needless to say, this little snippet was a delight.

Great story. Would love to read what happenes next.

Now this was a great one, also love the art. The Magaambya has been something I've been interested in for the longest time, and it's living up to its glory.

Alos Kweku is awesome.

I'd like to add my voice to wishing for adventures featuring the Magaambya, and the rest of Garund as well!

If we could get a map of the southern half of the continent that would be lovely too :)

I'd like to add my voice to wishing for adventures featuring the Magaambya, and the rest of Garund as well!

If we could get a map of the southern half of the continent that would be lovely too :)

I believe we are getting a world map in the Lost Omens HC, no idea exactly how specific it's gonna be but we are at least gonna finally see the southern half :3

So, are Tempest-Sun Mages a special archetype (I mean, I imagine they'll eventually get one anyway) or particular discipline, or is it just the group name for a bunch of high-level combat casters?

Most likely 2 and 3, followed soon by 1.

There is one issue I came across that the creative folks at Paizo may want to address at some point. In the course of doing research on medieval African educational institutions, I discovered that the most renowned ones (such as the University of Timbuktu) tended to be located in desert rather than jungle terrain -- and a little bit of thought made it obvious why there would be a basic problem with building major cities in uncleared jungle. Maybe there should be some sort of description of magic roadways that permit easy travel through the jungle without requiring too many trees to be cut down?

There is one issue I came across that the creative folks at Paizo may want to address at some point. In the course of doing research on medieval African educational institutions, I discovered that the most renowned ones (such as the University of Timbuktu) tended to be located in desert rather than jungle terrain -- and a little bit of thought made it obvious why there would be a basic problem with building major cities in uncleared jungle. Maybe there should be some sort of description of magic roadways that permit easy travel through the jungle without requiring too many trees to be cut down?

I have a feeling that Marvel fans would be more familiar with a magical city buried in the jungle than the desert.

But breaking expectations, even if it’s only the terrain, is a great way to move beyond stereotypes.

Agreed about a Magaambya adventure path. I think considering their mastery of magic they should be able to build a jungle city without too much trouble. That said, a fantasy counterpart Timbuktu would be awesome as well!

D'aww, being tempted by goodness is the best alignment shift ever.

Druids are part of the Magaambya tradition, so I don't think that the acadamy has any problems with life in the jungle. It's also an advantage when it comes to defence (again, particularly if druids are helping you).

Somehow I don't think that Walkena's crowd will have many druids helping them.

+1 for wanting to hear more about these characters!

The art is gorgeous, as always. Although I did worry about those ground-level rooms being very hot and humid (as there did not appear to be adequate ventilation) - until I remembered again: druids. And magic in general. :)

Having regular access to Remove Disease would be a HUMONGOUS help for having a city in a jungle. Having regular access to the Fly spell and magic items that approximate it wouldn't hurt either.

For his sake, I hope he choose to embrace her rather than strangle her.

Whether he follows his dark path or comes into the light, dying now would be stupid.
Awesome story

So yet another post on this region that includes Lizardfolk. I'm happy to see that there is a concerted effort to incorporate this species into the mainstream. It'll be nice not to have to play the "only inquisitive, non-xenophobic member of my species" type of character.

Seduced by the not-so-dark side... I like this a lot. Loved her walking backward up stairs and touching him so familiarly. I wondered what spells she might be casting on him.

Nicely done, Tim!

Oh, pssh, she's not casting spells on him, she's just making Diplomacy checks. I do love the reverse-corruption angle, though, and the lizardfolk is fun. Gotta love lizardfolk getting more to do. The writing is fun and the worldbuilding is valuable and I love the dynamics of these characters. I would watch a Cartoon Network animated series about these kids.

What I'm curious about is this throwaway line, which is giving me problems:

Everything he should hate: a native of the Expanse who'd been corrupted and weakened by the outside world, and who sought to bring that poison back home.

See, this seems like a kind of clumsy line, as it could easily be taken to imply Mzali is basically just another "oh no extremist anti-imperialists" villain plot like what we had in Serpent's Skull. Mzali is clearly supposed to be a fascist empire, so obviously they're going to hate all outsiders—but why should a fascist care if one outsider is "corrupted" by another outsider? Kweku is no more a True Mzalian than the lizardfolk is, or, indeed, than your average Chelaxian/Osiriani is. It only makes sense if Mzali is simultaneously a fascist conqueror targeting the continent and has some sort of inclusive Pan-Garundian ideology, and those ideas don't even slightly mesh.

Paizo had this thing in Serpent's Skull where we kept running into Reverse Racist villains, like the "extremist abolitionist" at the start who holds a friend hostage and is impossible to persuade to back down. It's frustrating to encounter stories like that, because it highlights facets of racism that a lot of people don't care to understand the nuances of. It's how we get the, "You say black people can't be racist but someone called me a cracker at the grocery store just yesterday" arguments. Of all the ways to interpret Mzali, it's one of the most frustrating and least compelling, so I do hope that it's just a throwaway line and not indicative of Paizo's overall intentions for Mzali.

(I also think that as cool as the ambiguity of the ending is, "I'm gonna hug this woman I met five minutes ago" sort of feels unearned. It doesn't bug me as much as it could, though. It just doesn't feel like it was set up well enough to generate real ambiguity. If it was something like "take her hand" it'd be corny but it'd match the vibe of the scene better.)

EDIT: An alternative reading of this line, and the one I think was probably intended, is that the Mzalian character sees other human natives of the Mwangi Expanse as being "basically Mzalian", like an alt-right German might value an Austrian or a Swede. In that reading, she's been "poisoned" as much by the Ekujae elves and lizardfolk as by anyone else, and other continents or the whole Eleder situation don't even have to enter into it.

I think this was the intention, and I'm curious how others read that line. I didn't set out to read this story and look for problems—I'm just a lot more sensitive to them when Paizo writes about the Mwangi Expanse, and that's owing to my experiences in Serpent Skull. :P

It could also be a callback to the beginning where he makes note of her being both Mawunyo's teaching and traveling companion, and thus spent a large amount of time in the "outside world".

From the Pathfinder wiki entry on Mzali, though I don't know the actual source: "Today, Mzali is the centre of Mwangi nationalism. Walkena seeks to unite the entire Mwangi Expanse under his rule, and aims to drive out all non-Mwangi from the region. Those who trade with outsiders are considered to be traitors, who plunder the Expanse's precious and irreplaceable resources for personal gain."
So yeah, I think it's specifically the Mwangi ethnicity he's appealing to, not just citizens of Mzali itself. Racism more than nationalism.

Conquest and pan-continent/regional ideology have often matched quite well. They just need to be divorced from a strictly nationalist ideology. "Unite under my banner to protect our people from the threat of attack from without and corruption from the aliens within."

It could also be a callback to the beginning where he makes note of her being both Mawunyo's teaching and traveling companion, and thus spent a large amount of time in the "outside world".

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what it is referencing.

And yes, I know that ultranationalism (which, yeah, tends to involve racism and, in fantasy, "specism") and pan-continental movements can mesh well—if you've decided to write an extremist anti-colonialism villain, which is a really tired trope. That's my point. I'd just as soon leave Avistan out of it. I don't think this is pan-continental so much as pan-Mwangi, however (which is still about nationalism if you think Mzali is the true heritor of that Mwangi nation), and that's a beast of a different color. I don't think the Reverse Racism angle was intended.

I will note that the Wiki isn't very reliable for these sorts of sensitive topics, since Paizo has written problematic stuff and then quietly retconned/de-canon'd it before. The wiki could have a mix of new and old information.

Those who trade with outsiders are considered to be traitors, who plunder the Expanse's precious and irreplaceable resources for personal gain.

Like, this, here? This is the kinda dumb thing I'm talking about. Because in Serpent's Skull, it's made explicitly clear that outsiders are plundering the Expanse's precious and irreplaceable resources for personal gain. You're literally playing in a classic Indiana Jones-style "let's venture into savage lands and loot their ancient dead" adventure. The adventure starts in a city where natives are enslaved and ex-Chelaxian invaders have started colonizing the region. And then you're immediately expected to fight an Evil Abolitionist. You're not even allowed to align with a native faction—you choose between the Pathfinders, the Evil Pathfinders, Pirates, the slavers, etc, because the Freeman's Brotherhood is only mentioned as a "these are the anti-slavers and they're too extreme to trust".

If being angry at those who cooperate with outsiders to plunder the Expanse was Mzali's actual motivation, we would be inclined to say, "Well, yeah, that's actually a pretty fair point." That's why I'm hoping Paizo has adjusted since that summary was written.

Certainly possible, though it fits quite nicely into what we see in this story. Though I get there are potential issues with it, I don't think anti-colonialism maps very well onto Garund - the Mwangi Expanse wasn't nearly so colonized as sub-Saharan Africa was. Most of the continent has remained independent and out of Avistani control - Sargava being the only real exception.

And reverse racism is also kind of tricky to talk about in another world with other patterns of discrimination - that we're reading in our culture with our patterns.

On writing "reverse racist" villains: We're reading it in our culture. It's written by people from our culture. I think we both know that it's silly to pretend it exists in any other context but our culture. That's why we don't give Save The Pearls the benefit of the doubt when it creates a "white people are the ones getting racismed now" dystopia.

Yes, it's a fantasy world, but it's a fantasy world that features not only overt national and continental allusions (Galt is Revolutionary France, Osirion is Egypt), it features, well, people, and we're going to recognize those people through our cultural understandings of race and gender. Someone from the Mwangi Expanse looks "black" to us, so if you write them a certain way, we're going to associate that with our cultural ideas of black people, even though race is basically a construct that may exist totally differently even elsewhere in the real world, to say nothing of imaginary worlds. Especially when the Mwangi guy is angry at the Avistani people stealing his land and enslaving his neighbors. Y'know, that's what coding is for, and I know you know that, so I hope I'm not being patronizing and you can help me understand you better.

Also, the point of pre-2nd Edition Garund seems to be that the colonialism hasn't really "hit its stride" yet—at least where the Expanse is concerned. Eleder represents basically the potential beginnings of conquest—comparable to an American or Australian colony, or even just any British colony ever in Africa if you imagine that the colony got free of Britain and started acting independently. Of course, Sargava might get destroyed by Mzali, or defeated in an AP (because we'll probably never get a Mwangi-centered AP where the PCs are actually expected to be Mwangi natives, so it's always gotta center on Eleder), or otherwise might have no chance of expansion, but that doesn't change the fact that it's literally a colony of white people enslaving black people? And I don't understand why we would even remotely consider not being willing to apply an anti-colonialism framework to the Mwangi Expanse when Sargava has provided our only introduction to it so far.

Golarion is obviously not parallel to our present-day, and in fact doesn't sync up easily at all in our timeline (consider the uneasy coexistence of vikings and Victorian vampires), but the impression I get is that Garund is currently facing threats of greater colonization but has so far remained fairly independent, similar to many parts of Africa up until the 19th-20th centuries. The implication is that things could get worse, and the coding of "Mwangi natives being taken as slaves by Chelaxians" is pretty explicit.

In conclusion (god I talk a lot, don't I?), it feels needlessly obtuse to reject the colonialism interpretation when a) it doesn't matter, because Garund is clearly coded as Africa even if there are clear differences and this media is being consumed primarily by Americans and "Global North" (ugh, terms) countries who will see that coding intuitively, and b) there are active and deliberate aspects of colonialism, at least in pre-2nd Edition Pathfinder, that Paizo clearly wanted us to recognize. Slavery. "Explorers" being mistrusted as invaders and trespassers. Literally everything about Eleder.

So, yeah, First Edition Pathfinder had a big emphasis on colonialism, and they ran a whole AP where it was this uncomfortable backdrop we were supposed to ignore so we didn't have to feel weird about looting the Expanse, and it was really awkward when we ran into natives and they were all "stop stealing our s*$& and get the f%@~ out" and we were expected to see them as the villains.

I think Second Edition Pathfinder is trying to move away from a lot of that and towards something closer to, yeah, certain Marvel-inspired visions. I certainly hope so.

I guess. My impression was that, despite Sargava, the Mwangi was much better prepared to resist colonization, largely due to magic offsetting any technological advantage Avistan might have, thus we're not on any path to "hit its stride".

And I'm not even sure which AP you're talking about. This is the first I remember hearing about any such "it was really awkward when we ran into natives and they were all "stop stealing our s%@& and get the f+*# out" and we were expected to see them as the villains". Of course, I may simply not have played or read it. There are a lot I haven't. Serpent's Skull maybe? Which I really don't know anything about beyond the initial shipwreck and something about a lost city & serpent god?

But yeah in general doing parallels gets awkward. You don't want to actually duplicate the colonialism and racism, but if the in-world situation is too different there's trouble making our reactions and what would be appropriate for the setting match.

Not to be prickly, but I've mentioned Serpent's Skull five times so far here, and in every post I made except for the latest. I guess I was assuming we were all on the same page by that point about the AP I was alluding to. :P

I also did say that Sargava might not be on the path to conquest, and that wouldn't negate the fact that it's clearly coded as a, well, colony, that is able to take slaves and generally wreak enough havoc on the Mwangi Expanse for natives to get pissed about it.

Of course, Sargava might get destroyed by Mzali, or defeated in an AP (because we'll probably never get a Mwangi-centered AP where the PCs are actually expected to be Mwangi natives, so it's always gotta center on Eleder), or otherwise might have no chance of expansion, but that doesn't change the fact that it's literally a colony of white people enslaving black people? And I don't understand why we would even remotely consider not being willing to apply an anti-colonialism framework to the Mwangi Expanse when Sargava has provided our only introduction to it so far.

And again, even if Paizo didn't intend any colonialist coding at all (and, I'm sorry, they did), this game exists in a culture where "the evil nation in Fantasy Africa is angry at people from Fantasy Europe coming in and stealing their resources and taking slaves" is going to be read as a "Reverse Racist Villain" story, and I don't get why we had to stop and argue about it like it wasn't virtually self-evident.

Not to be prickly, but I've mentioned Serpent's Skull five times so far here, and in every post I made except for the latest. I guess I was assuming we were all on the same page by that point about the AP I was alluding to. :P

I also did say that Sargava might not be on the path to conquest, and that wouldn't negate the fact that it's clearly coded as a, well, colony, that is able to take slaves and generally wreak enough havoc on the Mwangi Expanse for natives to get pissed about it.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Of course, Sargava might get destroyed by Mzali, or defeated in an AP (because we'll probably never get a Mwangi-centered AP where the PCs are actually expected to be Mwangi natives, so it's always gotta center on Eleder), or otherwise might have no chance of expansion, but that doesn't change the fact that it's literally a colony of white people enslaving black people? And I don't understand why we would even remotely consider not being willing to apply an anti-colonialism framework to the Mwangi Expanse when Sargava has provided our only introduction to it so far.

And again, even if Paizo didn't intend any colonialist coding at all (and, I'm sorry, they did), this game exists in a culture where "the evil nation in Fantasy Africa is angry at people from Fantasy Europe coming in and stealing their resources and taking slaves" is going to be read as a "Reverse Racist Villain" story, and I don't get why we had to stop and argue about it like it wasn't virtually self-evident.

** spoiler omitted **...

I guess because it wasn't for many posters.

Not everyone is as versed in Mwangi/Mzali/Sargava lore as you are.

To note, alignment in PFRPG does not really care about ideology, but more about actions.

So, whatever his motivations, if Walkena does evil things, he is an evil person.

In fact I see Walkena as the Mwangi equivalent to Razmir : totalitarian god-kings with mythic cults of personality.

It only makes sense if Mzali is simultaneously a fascist conqueror targeting the continent and has some sort of inclusive Pan-Garundian ideology, and those ideas don't even slightly mesh.

Not only do they mesh, pan-nationalism was the direct ideological ancestor of fascism in Europe. See, e.g., pan-Germanism, pan-Slavism. Pan-Arabism and pan-Africanism have had their share of authoritarian and expansionist adherents as well, though the fascist label is debatable (most aligned with the Eastern Bloc in the Cold War). Gadaffi's regime in Libya was pan-Africanist and more than once attempted to conquer territory in Chad; Nasser's and Hussein's regimes in Egypt and Iraq were pan-Arabist, and Assad's regime in Syria is still theoretically committed to pan-Arabism even if it's kindof behind the times. Hussein's expansionism (vis a vis Iran and Kuwait) is infamous, and both Nasser and Assad had territorial ambitions in. . . let's say The Levant.

Mzali has been mentioned several times here. If adventurers are going to run into (or be) Mzali warriors; what would a Mzali warrior look like (as far as weapons & kit)
A traditional Zulu kit, for example, might include; the Iklwa (a short thrusting spear), Knobkerrie (a form of light club), Assegai (a long throwing spear) and a large cowhide shield. How should these be stated? What kind (if any) armor would they wear in the hot desert environment? So far, almost all weapons & armor are either European or Asian (or their myths) based.
If we're going to do adventures in southern Mwangi, how about we provide some stuff that is uniquely from there (not just weapons and armor). Even if, for example, an iklwa is stated as a short spear or a short sword, being able to use it as a iklwa ads a lot of flavor.

Morag

Most of the people of Mzali are of the Zenj ethnicity, which is known to use the iwisa/knobkerrie, which in the real world is a Zulu weapon.

Seems a little strange to me since the people of Mzali are hardly Zulu-like (or anything in particular to be fair), but the name Zenj is based on an Arabic name for the Swahili Coast, applied to a group of people in a Congo-like rainforest with names that seem to be inspired by South African languages, so the writers hardly seem to care about being consistent with cultural analogues. Which is kind of a shame since people in the "western world" tend to lump African cultures together all too often despite it being the world's most ethnically diverse continent, but I'd rather not have a detailed conversation about that as it's not very relevant to the story.

That bit of the story makes perfect sense to me. Walkena and Mzali are responding to a real and legitimate problem that the Mwangi Expanse has been having. They are doing so in an extreme and unrepentantly Evil fashion, with fascist leanings.

Many of the best villains are not purely Evil for the sake of it, they have a point. An argument and a cause that, taken on its own and ignoring their actions, even the most reasonable people can look at and say 'Hmmm, yes, that makes sense.' It's the things they do in pursuit of that cause (or that they claim are in pursuit of that cause, but actually reveal their hypocrisy) that make them villains.

That bit of the story makes perfect sense to me. Walkena and Mzali are responding to a real and legitimate problem that the Mwangi Expanse has been having. They are doing so in an extreme and unrepentantly Evil fashion, with fascist leanings.

Many of the best villains are not purely Evil for the sake of it, they have a point. An argument and a cause that, taken on its own and ignoring their actions, even the most reasonable people can look at and say 'Hmmm, yes, that makes sense.' It's the things they do in pursuit of that cause (or that they claim are in pursuit of that cause, but actually reveal their hypocrisy) that make them villains.

This is a very good point.

That bit of the story makes perfect sense to me. Walkena and Mzali are responding to a real and legitimate problem that the Mwangi Expanse has been having. They are doing so in an extreme and unrepentantly Evil fashion, with fascist leanings.

Many of the best villains are not purely Evil for the sake of it, they have a point. An argument and a cause that, taken on its own and ignoring their actions, even the most reasonable people can look at and say 'Hmmm, yes, that makes sense.' It's the things they do in pursuit of that cause (or that they claim are in pursuit of that cause, but actually reveal their hypocrisy) that make them villains.

That is true. That kind of villians are always better than the usual being evil for evils sake. Classic Examples are Magneto, Ra's al Ghul or more recent the already talked about Killmonger from Black Panther.