Unchained Skills and Feats

Thursday, April 9, 2015

If classes are the main chassis of a character, skills and feats are its nuts and bolts. When they let us designers loose in Pathfinder Unchained, it's only natural that we wanted to play around with how the nuts and bolts attach, and even try changing the shapes of those nuts and bolts entirely! In Chapters 2 and 3 of Pathfinder Unchained, there are not only several daring subsystems that play with feats, there so many different options for restructuring skills that it's easy to lose yourself in all the possibilities. I've gathered some of the coolest tidbits from all those options to share with you today!

Starting with skills, the three major skills options each serve a different goal.


Illustration by Géraud Soulié

I Need More Skills to Flesh Out My Character
The background skills variant separates out certain skills as background skills as opposed to adventuring skills. It also adds some new background skills to the game, such as Lore, a very specific version of the Knowledge skill. To round it out, everyone gains 2 extra skill points to spend on background skills, no matter your class!

There Are Too Many Skills
The consolidated skills variant serves a somewhat opposite goal, combining current skill functionality into only 12 skills.

Assigning Skill Points Can Be Tough
The grouped skills variant makes it easier to assign skills, speeding up the level-up process. It also gives characters a middle tier of skills that they are pretty good at, rather than most characters having mostly max ranks, 1 rank, or no ranks.

As cool as the skill sections are, the sections involving feats are the showstoppers of today's blog!

Variant Multiclassing
Have you ever wanted to multiclass your character for flavor reasons—maybe pick up some bardic performances and versatile performance to represent the time you unexpectedly spent studying music one adventure—but then you realized that your character would be pretty significantly handicapped by taking those two levels in bard? It happens all the time, and it requires you to sacrifice something whichever choice you take. With the variant multiclassing option, you can choose a secondary class and trade out half your feats (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th) to instead gain a progression of special abilities based on which class you pick. Want to be a fighter who dabbles in divination magic such that he always acts on the surprise round or vexes his foes with hexes? You're covered. Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too. With variant multiclassing, you can open more combinations than ever before, without delaying your access to your main class's cool new features!

Stamina System
The stamina system offers new powers for every combat feat in the RPG line. Yes, you read that right: it specifically lists every combat feat in the whole line and then grants each feat new powers. Right from the start, the system offers options for you to just give the system to fighters or to give it to all martial characters, depending on your preference. Stamina is a new resource that allows martial characters to boost themselves and use their feats in new and exciting ways. It regenerates relatively quickly between battles, allowing you to enjoy an entirely new mindset to your daily exploration; a party of stamina-users benefits from hit and run guerilla tactics, emphasizing the value of mobility, stealth, and timing (as opposed to the mindset of "buff, buff, buff, speed through!"). Stamina lets you boost your effectiveness or change the rules of the feat in your favor. These special stamina powers are called combat tricks. While I'm sure that the ways to use stamina to boost your effectiveness will be quite popular (like Critical Focus, where under certain conditions, you can increase your critical multiplier, potentially multiple times if you roll high enough), I'm a fan of the combat tricks that let you retroactively apply an effect (like declare a Stunning Fist after you already know your attack connected), and my absolute favorites are the ones that let you trick your opponent through devious tactical play. For instance, the Combat Style Master combat trick allows you to spend stamina to switch your styles as an off-turn free action. So you can lure people into attacking you and then suddenly be in Snake Style before they can even call off the attack! In the same vein, I also really enjoy the combat tricks that let you use your powers when you normally couldn't, since that has two cool psychological effects: not only can it present great "gotcha" moments, but once your enemy knows you can, say, spend stamina to take a second attack of opportunity against them from the same opportunity, it changes the way they view your threat, and it might allow you to control their actions without even spending your stamina!

Tune in next time to learn more about magic—specifically, the new scaling magic items in Pathfinder Unchained that grow with your character!

Mark Seifter
Designer

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They can also be tailors, painters, and DANCERS;)


Man... can you imagine a Zen Archer Monk multiclassing to get the Inquisitor Bane ability? Throw in a Holy enchantment for the bow. Soooooo many damage dice...


Well we don't know yet how much and what options they give for getting abilities from other classes. Like inspire courage might not be an option to get this way, maybe it will. I say be cautious of what you think may or may not be part of this.

Dark Archive

Hmmm, would picking up Paladin saves for the Sorcerer be possible?


Oooooo, it might be easier for various classes to get wildshape now! That could be a lot of fun :D

Silver Crusade

Alexander Augunas wrote:
before slinging design insults at the PDT.

I most certainly wasn't slinging insults at the PDT, unless your definition of "insult" is "say anything critical of what they produce".


Maybe saying the skill rank problem has clearly been addressed was an unclear statement. By saying that the problem has been addressed I didn't necessarily mean that it has been solved to everybody's satisfaction. It is clear that something has been done though, something which could in my opinion make a big difference for a lot of PCs.

If my orc Dirty Fighter is able to free up some skill ranks to invest in Sleight of Hand to help represent stage magic tricks he's taught himself and might incorporate into some of his dirty tricks in combat that seems like a nice benefit to me. I was previously investing ranks in Sleight of Hand and Craft (Alchemy) for almost purely roleplaying reasons along with UMD for early roleplaying needs along with longer term aspirations of actual usefulness. Taking even a little pressure off of that PC's skill rank assignment would make it easier to meet my RP goals for the PC.

If a Fighter can afford to spend the skill ranks to be a tailor or painter without compromising combat effectiveness I think that's great. As I'd mentioned before, the idea of my Viking getting better at sailing ships is actually pretty exciting to me. Like most PCs, he can't afford to stop maxing out Perception, and our party badly needed him to have at least a little Knowledge (Dungeoneering) even though knowing about slimy tentacle monsters might not seem like the typical Viking's bailiwick. Having a few extra points will be nice - if the DM allows the book...

Anyhow, I know folks will have their own opinions. I won't change theirs, and they probably won't change mine. Maybe my glass is half full and theirs is half empty, but to me it seems worth at least giving Unchained a chance before complaining that the Fighter still sucks.


Matrix Dragon wrote:
Oooooo, it might be easier for various classes to get wildshape now! That could be a lot of fun :D

And the druid (who don' tneed no feats cept natural spell) getting rage...


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Oooooo, it might be easier for various classes to get wildshape now! That could be a lot of fun :D
And the druid (who don' tneed no feats cept natural spell) getting rage...

Better yet: A barbarian gives up some feats for whileshape. Who needs much more than power attack when you turn into a full BAB raging pouncing tiger?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Note that with the multiclassing rules, you're giving up General Feats, which are the powerful feats that actually give a Fighter his defenses, motility, and versatility, you're NOT giving up combat feats, which he has more then he needs.

Just not enthusiastic about the multiclassing, but hopefully you can get some save options that are better then Iron Will.

==Aelryinth


Entryhazard wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
We have all the current non-hybrid classes represented (since the hybrid classes are already hybrids to begin with). However, much as I biasedly love the kineticist, Unchained will not be listing any options that use rules from unpublished books, no.
Wouldn't be possible to include variant multiclassing coverage for those classes in the Occult Adventures book itself?

I hope the devs do this.


I'm hoping that Appraise gets rolled into Lore for rogues. I hate spending ranks on Appraise.


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Appraise often feels like a wasted investment since so many DMs either skip it outright or decide to gloss over it if nobody in the party is good at it.

I wonder if Lore is limited to one specific subject or if you get to know about an additional subject when you invest another rank. Spending multiple skill ranks to know all there is to know about owlbears sounds like it might be a little disappointing in the long run, but knowing all there is to know about owlbears as well as being an expert on the history of Cheliax and being able to identify all of the different sorts of devils might be fun.


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Devilkiller wrote:
I find the continued complaints about the Fighter class before we've even seen the book kind of tiring.

Slight modification, but otherwise, I nominate this quote for the new forum motto! :D


Devilkiller wrote:
I wonder if Lore is limited to one specific subject or if you get to know about an additional subject when you invest another rank. Spending multiple skill ranks to know all there is to know about owlbears sounds like it might be a little disappointing in the long run, but knowing all there is to know about owlbears as well as being an expert on the history of Cheliax and being able to identify all of the different sorts of devils might be fun.

Full lore ranks in one subject doesn't sound bad to me. You beat the Wizard and the Bard with respect to a particular subject. I've got a Sorcerer who should know about Rakshasas, but Knowledge (Planes) isn't a class skill, and it doesn't really feel worth investing in at the cost of a social skill. Spending one bonus rank on Lore (Rakshasas) lets me represent my character's background.

Silver Crusade

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Cthulhudrew wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
I find the continued complaints about the Fighter class before we've even seen the book kind of tiring.
Slight modification, but otherwise, I nominate this quote for the new forum motto! :D

Fixed that. :-P


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Joe M. wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
I find the continued complaints about the Fighter class before we've even seen the book kind of tiring.
Slight modification, but otherwise, I nominate this quote for the new forum motto! :D
Fixed that. :-P

Double-fixed.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
Paizo is immune to criticism and I don't think the discussion page for a new book is an appropriate place to discuss a new book.
Slight modification, but otherwise, I nominate this quote for the new forum motto! :D
Fixed that. :-P
Double-fixed.

m-m-m-mega fixed.


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pauljathome wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is likely to lead to a LOT of power creep?

As has been said, you're probably not the only one.

But I would have to disagree until someone comes out with a throughput that is significantly stronger than the core wizard can be.
Really, aside the inevitable corner-case, specific builds that will occur whenever you present players new options (unless you deliberately design worse options - which seems axiomatically bad design), I am actually doubtful we will see a significant ramp up in in-system power.

Quote:
Sure, beefing up the ftr is no huge deal. But do druids really need to be able to rage? Do wizards and clerics need more options?

He doesn't need it; but I personally wouldn't lose sleep over it. A Druid is far worse when wildshape is just a survivability boost rather than a combat style.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
I find the continued complaints about the Fighter class before we've even seen the book kind of tiring.
Slight modification, but otherwise, I nominate this quote for the new forum motto! :D
Fixed that. :-P
Double-fixed.
m-m-m-mega fixed.

No longer sticking words in people mode! Because, you know, saying "I have an emotional distaste for criticism of as yet unread material" is hardly buying a platform of blind faith.

Rynjin wrote:
Quote:
The problem with low skill ranks has clearly been addressed.
Errr...has it? Those two skill ranks you're not allowed to spend on anything useful fix the "Fighters don't have enough ranks to fill in their useful skills" problem? How?

Seconded. We don't actually necessarily have anything to tell us if the problem has been addressed. Really, the fix varies wildly in use by the way we fold down to 12. That, and the multi-classing concept.

Because hey, if "take all the feats" is a class feature, one presumes it reduces the marginal cost of the presented multi-classing system. Presumes.


Physically Unfeasible wrote:

As has been said, you're probably not the only one.

But I would have to disagree until someone comes out with a throughput that is significantly stronger than the core wizard can be.

Sure: A Core Wizard with variant multiclassing using any other casting class. Feats are basically meaningless to a core wizard so it's just a straight upgrade.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

to self so... this is what it is like to "fan girl".


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
Physically Unfeasible wrote:

As has been said, you're probably not the only one.

But I would have to disagree until someone comes out with a throughput that is significantly stronger than the core wizard can be.
Sure: A Core Wizard with variant multiclassing using any other casting class. Feats are basically meaningless to a core wizard so it's just a straight upgrade.

for some reason i don't think we're going to see spells as the thing you get from variant multiclassing.

oracles would probably give mysteries, druids an animal companion or wild shapes or something, i don't imagine we'll get things like spells.


Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.

yeah probably, but not by much, it won;t make their spells much more deadly than they already are, i don't see it raising the wizard's maximum potential basically.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think I see some opportunities for 3rd party publishers here. Publishers who came up with their own base classes may want to come up with variant multiclassing for their own classes (once they get an idea how it can be done from this book). And we already know that the stamina system will leave out many combat feats, whether by Paizo or by other publishers -- and surely somebody will want to fill in those gaps.


Considering wizards can already trade their feats for reducing your preparation time severely and getting a free call an outsider with more HD than you once per day for free, I wouldn't actually be surprised if some wizards kept to using arcane discoveries, item creation, and metamagic.

Dark Archive

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I just realized that now can have animorph campaign without people feeling powerless, which is super wonderful. NPC's with variant multi-classing feels like it could be a great boon to making characters that aren't as powerful as PC's, while still being able to hold their own in a fight(or run away quickly).


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Sounds cool. I'll have to wait for the reviews to come in before grabbing the PDF.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.

I am expecting spells, simply because they labeled it multi-classing, and you don't multiclass a sorcerer and not get SOME spell ability... the keyword there is some. I could easily see getting just the sorcerer bloodline bonus spells (which would be cool and powerful and I would do with some of my characters) or just a truncated (only divination or only evocation) spell list up to 4th or 5th level.

I could be totally wrong, but if I'm giving up what... 5 feats I expect more than 3 or 4 class flavor abilities I expect some real class oomf. After all if I am a divine caster I can already get something like Divine Protection and add my Cha to my Svs. Wow that would be cool for a sorcerer. Still I could be majorly wrong... and very often am.

I am filled with aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnticiiiiiiiii-pation...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Yrtalien wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.

I am expecting spells, simply because they labeled it multi-classing, and you don't multiclass a sorcerer and not get SOME spell ability... the keyword there is some. I could easily see getting just the sorcerer bloodline bonus spells (which would be cool and powerful and I would do with some of my characters) or just a truncated (only divination or only evocation) spell list up to 4th or 5th level.

I could be totally wrong, but if I'm giving up what... 5 feats I expect more than 3 or 4 class flavor abilities I expect some real class oomf. After all if I am a divine caster I can already get something like Divine Protection and add my Cha to my Svs. Wow that would be cool for a sorcerer. Still I could be majorly wrong... and very often am.

I am filled with aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnticiiiiiiiii-pation...

yeah i'd even go so far as to say just sneak attack would be worth several feats, but spellcasting? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH BOY.


Maybe you get reduced spellcasting.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Axial wrote:
Maybe you get reduced spellcasting.

unlikely, for instance, a fighter variant multiclassed as a wizard that gained full casting as a wizard would be insane. a direct upgrade from the wizard.

more likely if we get casting it will be extremely limited, like only being able to choose one school and maybe the first 4 levels, or something.

tactician fighter, now with 1000% more bad-ass.


Also, they still have to worry about their clunky armor making all their spells fail.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Axial wrote:
Also, they still have to worry about their clunky armor making all their spells fail.

das why you get one of the 2 archetypes that only have light armor prof, you have so many feats you can get the first step of arcane armor training. anyway, i'm thinking it'd be best if they were an archer.


Yrtalien wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.

I am expecting spells, simply because they labeled it multi-classing, and you don't multiclass a sorcerer and not get SOME spell ability... the keyword there is some. I could easily see getting just the sorcerer bloodline bonus spells (which would be cool and powerful and I would do with some of my characters) or just a truncated (only divination or only evocation) spell list up to 4th or 5th level.

I could be totally wrong, but if I'm giving up what... 5 feats I expect more than 3 or 4 class flavor abilities I expect some real class oomf. After all if I am a divine caster I can already get something like Divine Protection and add my Cha to my Svs. Wow that would be cool for a sorcerer. Still I could be majorly wrong... and very often am.

I am filled with aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnticiiiiiiiii-pation...

Just getting all of a sorcerer's bloodline powers without having to have crazy high charisma would be just fine by me. Orc bloodline martials, or almost any of the other bloodlines that boost damage or spell DCs for a wizard.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

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David knott 242 wrote:
I think I see some opportunities for 3rd party publishers here.

I can't properly express how much I agree with this statement. Because reasons.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Arachnofiend wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
Paizo is immune to criticism and I don't think the discussion page for a new book is an appropriate place to discuss a new book.
Slight modification, but otherwise, I nominate this quote for the new forum motto! :D
Fixed that. :-P
Double-fixed.
m-m-m-mega fixed.

High score.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm really hoping this book has the added benefit of getting more GMs to try out 3rd party content.

Contributor

Arachnofiend wrote:
Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.

Mysteries are Charisma-based: not useful for the wizard.

Wizards could already get bloodline abilities via Eldritch Heritage (and the entire chain costs four feats, which is very comparable to variant multiclassing trading out half of your character advancement feats, which amounts to five feats in all). The only real change would be regarding whether wizards would get the bloodline arcana from variant multiclassing.


While I'm pretty sure archetypes won't be available for the "multiclassed" part, I'm already planning to add something from the scarred witch-doctor to my demon-possessed orc barbarian in Skulls & Shackles. The orc was a shaman apprentice in his youth afterall.
Can't wait to see how the multiclass bit is implemented... not expecting spells, but some spooky voodoo hexes when not raging? Hell yea!
For additional fun, the scarred witch-doctor mask will have the appearance of my inner demon for a truly fearsome demeanor, and the background skill points will let me actually carve that mask out of darkwood or something!


Rynjin wrote:
graystone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:

actually seems like they pretty much said that rage is an option:

Quote:


Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too.
rage was confirmed, rage powers weren't. Although they would make sense to out the progression.

Once you have Rage, Extra Rage Power means you can take them with feats.

Which I find really amusing, since rage powers are definitely stronger then combat feats.

==Aelryinth

No...

Rage Power has a prerequisite of "Rage Power class feature". not Rage.

How do you get one without the other?

Off the top of my head:

-Being a level 1 Barbarian.

-Being a level 1-5 Viking Fighter

-Being an any level Inquisitor or Cleric with the Anger Inquisition.

-Being a level 8-11 Cleric or Inquisitor with the Rage subdomain.

-Being one of the Barbarian archetypes that trades out Rage Powers for some levels.

And I'm sure there's a few I've missed.

I completely misread that. I was thinking you where saying you wouldn't get the rage class feature instead of not getting the Rage Powers class feature. My bad, carry on.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.

I'm hoping to at least get limited casting. Heck, even cantrips would be nice since SLA's don't count as spells anymore. It would allow picking up those "need to cast arcane/divine spells" feats.


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Epic Meepo wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
I think I see some opportunities for 3rd party publishers here.
I can't properly express how much I agree with this statement. Because reasons.

Ugh! This. You know how often I see people whining about no words of power support or mythic stuff or any other optional rule that the game isn't about that third party publishers handle but they haven't even thought to touch it because, 'Ewwww! Third party? That's inherently unbalanced.' Disregarding anytime the monk or fighter or rogue sucks too much or you just can't come close to that concept from that show you watched, or just want to play as My Little Ponies so you can be a psionic unicorn that shoots lasers from her horn and eats muffins that give you buffs (I seriously have played with Ultimate Psionics, Ponyfinder, and Red Dragon Inn Guide to Taverns and Inns at the same time. My character's name was Starcharmer.) third party patches and alternate rules have already existed so I really hope this opens people up to modding their games and getting in the mood for third party stuff and just stop complaining about lack of support when there is third party support that is well regarded but still isn't picked up as a solution to that problem.


I for one would like to welcome our now supremely attuned charisma multiclass overlords. Maybe specifically the Oracles, as the crucial feats to the SAD Lunar/Lore/Nature builds are still available pretty much when you want them to be.

I'm just stuck on /what/ to combine them with, since they seem to be doing perfectly fine by themselves..


Malwing wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
I think I see some opportunities for 3rd party publishers here.
I can't properly express how much I agree with this statement. Because reasons.
Ugh! This. You know how often I see people whining about no words of power support or mythic stuff or any other optional rule that the game isn't about that third party publishers handle but they haven't even thought to touch it because, 'Ewwww! Third party? That's inherently unbalanced.'

I think it's less that they're unhappy with those options, and more that they want Paizo to acknowledge the problems with not further supporting words of power and mythic, and other various issues had, that are solved by 3rd party.

Other times, third party material being broken is a very possible thing, as it is with Paizo content. However, when Paizo content is too strong or scary to a GM, they just ban that thing. Whenever a 3rd party material is too strong or scary to a GM, they aren't inclined to see much more 3rd party material.

Another issue being Pathfinder Society, which is apparently a way bigger part of this game than I realized before joining the forums.


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Honestly... The only thing that stops me from using more 3pp stuff is that they don't usually have HeroLab support. :/


About the scaling magic items of Owen:

I was just reading this thread today looking for good house rules.

I hope the implementation in Unchained amounts to something similar.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
Honestly... The only thing that stops me from using more 3pp stuff is that they don't usually have HeroLab support. :/

I actually stopped using herolab because of this... *chuckle*


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Bandw2 wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Honestly... The only thing that stops me from using more 3pp stuff is that they don't usually have HeroLab support. :/
I actually stopped using herolab because of this... *chuckle*

I still buy 3pp material... But I don't use it as often because creating characters in HL is so freaking quick, simpel and practical that it becomes kinda addictive! Hahaha.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Honestly... The only thing that stops me from using more 3pp stuff is that they don't usually have HeroLab support. :/
I actually stopped using herolab because of this... *chuckle*

I still buy 3pp material... But I don't use it as often because creating characters in HL is so freaking quick, simpel and practical that it becomes kinda addictive! Hahaha.

I use a lot of third party feats and classes... and races... and spells... and items... i use... a lot.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.
Mysteries are Charisma-based: not useful for the wizard.

Not all of them are charisma based -- some of them reference no stats at all. You just have to be very picky about which revelations you take.

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