The DM thinks the +2 to two abilities, darkvision, daylight, resistances and two languages are to much.
He would reduce it to +2 to one ability and darksivision or daylight.
Is that than underpowered? what do you think?
From a strictly Race Builder standpoint, I think that would put you fairly close in RP to the same benchmark as the core races, assuming the +2 to one ability is something you get to choose yourself and not randomly assigned by him.
As far as the build, I can't really comment as clerics aren't a class I'm particularly familiar with yet.
Edit: I just realized I may have read it wrong. Which of these is he suggesting?
-Remove either Darkvision or Daylight; +2 to only one ability.
-Remove all the things listed in the first quoted sentence, leaving only +2 to one ability and either Darkvision or Daylight.
The former is what I interpreted it as initially, the latter would be a quite different matter.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
It sucks.
The core race is 'ok' and is allowed at a full unmodified level in PFS games. By NO means is it OP.
Thats just typical "Good guys can't have nice things" GM'ing.
Personally my reponse would be to roll up a completely beligerent and annoying half-orc with zero social graces and 100% motivated by money and grief the GM until he actually let me run with something that would contribute to the game.
Just say NO to nerfbat GM's.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, sabotaging the fun of the entire group is the way to go. <sarcasm>
How about talking it out with the GM? Aasimar stat bonuses have been discussed on the boards before. Adding a -2 to one physical attribute should bring them in line with most other stuff out there.
Gee Mag, see normally I'd expect the group to consider my fun too and ask the GM just to let it slide. If an Aasi doesn't bother THEM, why does it bother the GM. Its just poor quality control freak GM'ing.
The Aasi has been discussed to death, and there has been no great need to change them.
|
The complete lack of disadvantaged on the aasimar had my eyebrows raised too. I mean, apart from the human-style races, every race has some weak spot; Elves have that unpleasant penalty to Constitution that has wizards a bit uncomfortable, while halflings have a hard time handling small weapons, low strength and low movement.
Aasimar get normal speed, no penalty, and you get to play a race generally expected to be good guys, so you may get a break socially. Okay, the stat bonus is a bit soft, but still, the lack of disadvantage had my eyebrows raised.
|
Aasimar are humans with outsider blood. So the change in stats is not too drastic a change.
I'm not sure why daylight is removed, its kinda powerful, but its also a limited spell...
In any case, the nerf is not too bad. Your suggestion of -2 to one stat could also work, but I would suggest against -2 to Con for a Cleric. (You need the HP to stay alive and keep the party up on its feet.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd just say ok and build something else. Your DM seems biased against the race. You can't be sure it won't continue to manifest later.
The very first campaign I was involved with had an Aasamar Fighter(Archer). She hit so often and so hard, that the entire group agreed to outright *ban* it as a playable race in future ventures.
Edit: As for the cleric you can do a far better race.
I don't see much of an issue with the rest of the build, although personally my cleric finds improved channel to be a waste, then again he is all about the healing and does his damage in melee and spells rather than channel, unless its undead.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The very first campaign I was involved with had an Aasamar Fighter(Archer). She hit so often and so hard, that the entire group agreed to outright *ban* it as a playable race in future ventures.
Bit of an odd choice by your group, since the Aasimar doesn't really have anything that makes them particularly good archers. Fighter(Archer)s, on the other hand, are very scary so long as the wind spells aren't used to shut them down completely.
Actually, aasimar is a 15 point race. It is a little bit stronger than the core races, and that shouldn't be an issue anymore once you hit level 6 or so. Your class abilities will be stronger than your racial abilities by then, so you will be relying on them more.
Not to mention that its 15 points are distributed in a way that would make most optimizers cry.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The very first campaign I was involved with had an Aasamar Fighter(Archer). She hit so often and so hard, that the entire group agreed to outright *ban* it as a playable race in future ventures.
Because it was the Aasimar part of "Aasimar Fighter(Archer)" that was the overpowered part, right? If you'd constructed the exact same build with a Human it would've been completely nerfed, is that correct?
It always bemuses me to see what people will swing their banhammers at.
The DM thinks the +2 to two abilities, darkvision, daylight, resistances and two languages are to much.
He would reduce it to +2 to one ability and darksivision or daylight.
Is that than underpowered? what do you think? I might suggest to give +2 to WIS and CHA and -2 to CON.
what do you think? Any Advice
>:|
Suffice to say, I don't think your DM understands how to balance races. It's starting to become a pet peeve of mine.
Anyway, useful stuff.
-The most powerful thing about an Aasimar is that it's a native outsider. Not that it has a flexible stat array (although this is certainly very good from a low level character building point of view) and 1/day daylight.
-The lesser planar races in one of the 3.5 books takes out their standard +1 LA for being considered humanoids -and- native outsiders. That way they can be both charm person'd and banished. It also stops any loss of flavour. He could try something similar. (Basically, forced Scion of Humanity)
-Point out to your DM that HALF the RP from an Aasimar comes from skill bonuses and elemental resistances. Take out those and you're a 7 RP race.
EDIT: "+2 to one ability and darksivision or daylight." is awful. Don't play that.
The very first campaign I was involved with had an Aasamar Fighter(Archer). She hit so often and so hard, that the entire group agreed to outright *ban* it as a playable race in future ventures.
...
You know archers are really good, right? And aasimars don't do anything for archers? (Unless you're using the +2 Dex one, but even then an elf or a human is better)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You might consider a Qlippoth-Spawn Teifling.
Or if you want to make your DM cry....a dwarf.
i actually thought asimar was 17 point because something is missed off?
it gets way OP when you start chucking in variants (+2str and +2cha, with no penalty & the awesomeness of alter self spell) OR rolling on the d100 variant table and getting another +2 str or SR
Man he can HAVE Daylight, I can't remember the last time I thought 'gee wow, wish we had THAT one ready to go!". Similarly, the resistances don't come up that often anyway, so no great loss.
Unfortunately it is concessions you shouldn't have to make, especially as you will already be at a disadvantage already by being the good guy. Only way you could have made it harder was by rolling a pally.
Hello everyone,
for Carrion Crown I want to built a Sarenrae Cleric focused on support and blasting undead.
I was thinking a Aasimar might be a nice fit as the group is mostly human. The alternate favourite class option of 1/2 cleric lvl to damage in combination with Sun/Glory(Heroism) Domains sounded good to me.
The DM thinks the +2 to two abilities, darkvision, daylight, resistances and two languages are to much.
He would reduce it to +2 to one ability and darksivision or daylight.
Is that than underpowered? what do you think? I might suggest to give +2 to WIS and CHA and -2 to CON.
My current built looks like this: (medium age 1-STR/CON/DEX +1 INT/WIS/CHA)
STR: 8
CON: 10 (+2 Belt)
DEX: 9
INT: 10
WIS:18 (+2+2+4 Headband)
CHA: 14Domains SUN / Heroism
Feats:
Improved Channel
Extra Channel
Quick Channel
Selective Channel
Scribe Scroll or Turn Undeadtraits:
sacred conduit +1 DC Channel
suject of study +1 dmg undeadbreastplate +1 / shield +1
ring of protection +1 / amulet of natural armor +1
cloak of resistance +2what do you think? Any Advice
1 resistance and no Spell-Like ability puts you at around 10-11 RP which is currently a standard race. Your GM is Gimping the Aasimar way too much.
I've had Tieflings and Aasimars in my Campaigns as is and they do not cause any problems, they are far from being over powered.
as GM of a Carrion Crown campaign I don't see this PC as anyway overpowered... Its a one-trick pony (Channel) which looks awesome on paper but it targets the strongest save (Will) for undead.
That and the stats are so gimped I don't think the PC will last a level.
Obviously YMMV but if I was your GM I would seriously ask you to rethink not because its OP but quite the opposite.
Man he can HAVE Daylight, I can't remember the last time I thought 'gee wow, wish we had THAT one ready to go!". Similarly, the resistances don't come up that often anyway, so no great loss.
Unfortunately it is concessions you shouldn't have to make, especially as you will already be at a disadvantage already by being the good guy. Only way you could have made it harder was by rolling a pally.
What game do you play? Resistances come up ALL the time. There is zero restriction on Aasimar alignment, and the Developers themselves have stated that Aasimar are more powerful than the standard races.
I've had Tieflings and Aasimars in my Campaigns as is and they do not cause any problems, they are far from being over powered.Add the +4 stat bonus, darkvision, 3rd level spell from a variety of choices, elemental resists, and the real biggy Outsider immunities to a lot of the classic humanoid targeting spells and you might reconsider that assessment.
Are they overpowered? that's up to your campaign. But it's hard to deny that they are more powerful than the standard races when you factor in the stat bonuses, the resists, the darkvision, and the immunities.
Point of order: You're assuming that "Blood of Angels" is in play. Most of the discussion up to this point has been about the base Aasimar. Most of the Aasimar variants do get a healthy boost above the standard races thanks to getting better stat distributions (Not many classes want high Wis and Cha) and a better Spell-like ability (or access to the chart)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would not play this character with this DM. He has funny ideas about the power of this race. It seems most do, and I don't see why.
I expect part of it's a 3.5 legacy issue, since they were a lot stronger than the average PC race back then. Also, they get a couple goodies normal PC races don't: the fact that those goodies aren't quite so awesome as they seem at first glance doesn't matter to folks who never get past the first glance.
Also, with the right combination of boosts from "Blood of Angels" (or "Blood of Fiends") you can get an extremely powerful race. Much like with the race builder, it give you enough flexibility to pull off some race optimization.
Actually, aasimar is a 15 point race. It is a little bit stronger than the core races, and that shouldn't be an issue anymore once you hit level 6 or so. Your class abilities will be stronger than your racial abilities by then, so you will be relying on them more.
Totally agree..
The Aasimar is ALMOST doubled what an ORC is in terms of RP (Racial Points)... so the DM is justified in his concerns but maybe went overboard with the nerfs...
I played an Aasimar Paladin last year and the this was before the Racial Guide came out... but my DM gave me all the Aasimar abilities EXCEPT for the RESISTANCE stuff until I hit level 5.... he did not want me to have everything at level 1 because I would be too powerful... especially Resistance...
Talk to your DM... maybe you can find a common ground somewhere..
David is correct... when you get to level 5 or 6 your class abilities are way more powerful than most Racial abilities.
What game do you play? Resistances come up ALL the time. There is zero restriction on Aasimar alignment, and the Developers themselves have stated that Aasimar are more powerful than the standard races.
PFS? Most of the AP's? A pile of the official modules? Homebrew as well?
The Al restriction is more along the lines of the Assimar is really built for Clerics and Paladins, and in this case the goody two shoes Cleric of Sarenrae. So whilst you are correct they CAN play any AL, the reality is that this isn't what happens.
People don't normally play CE Clerics in the party... not too many people play nasty evil Aasi because to be honest, the sort of hurr-durr 'deface the nice things' players tend to be the optimisers who recognise the Aasi for the weak point build it is and can't bring themselves to the gimpage.
I also suspect it is some relic the 3.5 people need to get over. I'm glad I avoided 3.5.
The ORC race on the other hand, man, they are awesome.
I would not play this character with this DM. He has funny ideas about the power of this race. It seems most do, and I don't see why.
+1.
It's a pretty significant warning sign for me too. Really gets my goat.
I've had Tieflings and Aasimars in my Campaigns as is and they do not cause any problems, they are far from being over powered.
Likewise, and I did the same in 3.5 as well (although with the Player's Guide to Faerûn's suggested fix of making them humanoids instead of outsiders).
Even though 3.5 humans were weaker than PF humans, while Aasimar and Tiefling stayed mostly the same, most of my players still elected to go with human for the bonus feat.
|
Be a D-Bag and change your concept to a Tiefling Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist so you start at level 1 with 2 Natural armor, 5 resistance to the three elements, a tail to retrieve items as a swift action instead of a move, 2 claws and a bite on full attacks with 1d6 sneak attack damage to flat footed/flanked opponents doing on average 3d4+3d6+Str damage...see how OP he thinks Aasimars are then...and I didn't even include your Mutagen, Elixirs and other sweet Alchemist abilities in there. Stupid GM.
|
Is there any reason the Planetouched don't count as both humans and native outsiders?
Their flavour specifically refers to them being humans with some kind of outsider in their ancestry, and that ancestor could have been many generations ago.
If a first generation human/elf, or human/orc still counts as human, then surely so should one whose grandfather, or great-grandfather, had a touch of the outer planes.
Would that simple change placate those who see the immunities to charm person, hold person, etc as being one advantage too many?
While I think that aasimars are quite powerful, I'd at most make it so they only get a racial bonus to one stat (Wisdom, in your case).
Daylight is not that good of a spell, although it can save lifes in a few situations. But that can be said of any spell.
Also, Clerics are not that great if focus only on casting, they're supposed to help in combat too. You should get some higher physical attributes.
Dex 10, Cha 10 and a somewhat higher Str and Con.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Is there any reason the Planetouched don't count as both humans and native outsiders?
Their flavour specifically refers to them being humans with some kind of outsider in their ancestry, and that ancestor could have been many generations ago.
If a first generation human/elf, or human/orc still counts as human, then surely so should one whose grandfather, or great-grandfather, had a touch of the outer planes.
Would that simple change placate those who see the immunities to charm person, hold person, etc as being one advantage too many?
I'm personally not inclined to add houserules to aasimars/tieflings, but if I were, that's probably the first thing I'd do.
I just turned them into templates, myself. Ditto with the various elemental-touched.
|
|
Actually, Scion of Humanity Aasamir count as Humans and Native Outsiders.
Also, not all Aasamir and Tieflings are of human blood, by the way.
In Blood of Fiends, and Blood of Angels, it notes that there are Aasmair and Tieflings from many humanoid races. It notes that there is small and large sized Aasamir and Tieflings.
|
|
Actually, Scion of Humanity Aasamir count as Humans and Native Outsiders.
Also, not all Aasamir and Tieflings are of human blood, by the way.
In Blood of Fiends, and Blood of Angels, it notes that there are Aasmair and Tieflings from many humanoid races. It notes that there is small and large sized Aasamir and Tieflings.
But that would still make them part humanoid ;)
Both the asimar and the tiefling are considerably more powerful than the core races, but especially the former with it's net +4 to attribute stats. stacked on top of darkvision and the fact that by picking the right heritage that +4 of bonuses can be moved around to suit.
That being said, the OP might be better off just playing a blonde Human than the DM's suggested race build.
Considerably? Really?
I never knew that a +1 bonus to a few rolls over other races was a "considerable" improvement. Considering it comes at the cost of useful race abilities (daylight is once per day and rarely useful, energy resistances are nigh worthless after level 2), I must say it's not really worth it compared to a dwarf, elf, or human.
The ONLY thing aasimar really have going for them over other playable races is their race type. If the OP's GM wishes to nerf something, he should have simply changed it to humanoid and left it at that.
|
|
Hello everyone,
for Carrion Crown I want to built a Sarenrae Cleric focused on support and blasting undead.
I was thinking a Aasimar might be a nice fit as the group is mostly human. The alternate favourite class option of 1/2 cleric lvl to damage in combination with Sun/Glory(Heroism) Domains sounded good to me.
The DM thinks the +2 to two abilities, darkvision, daylight, resistances and two languages are to much.
He would reduce it to +2 to one ability and darksivision or daylight.
Is that than underpowered? what do you think? I might suggest to give +2 to WIS and CHA and -2 to CON.
<edited for space>
One of the things to remember here is that Aasimar really aren't noticeably more potent than most core player races. A human starts out with an extra feat, and an extra skill point per level. Those skill points can translate into additional languages, entire additional skill sets (it's particularly potent at lower levels where it can allow you to get a total +4 in any of your class skills for a 1 point investment) which can be a big edge for clerics with their low skill points. That extra feat can lead to a class completing powerful feat chains like Dervish Dance, Two-Weapon Fighting, or the Channel feat chains as much as 3 levels earlier than other characters. Sure the Aasimar gets Daylight and Darkvision, but the Daylight works once a day and he won't be using his Darkvision while his Daylight is in effect.
Aasimar can kind of feel OP at a glance, but all of the races have some very potent abilities that, while not necessarily as flashy, count for just as much. The human bonus skills and half-orc ferocity are two great examples of this. A lot of people think of the half-orc ferocity as one last attack action, but it can allow a half-orc divine character who otherwise would be out of the fight to put himself right back in the mix without missing a beat or needing a party member to rush to the rescue. Or you can look at elves with their Immunity to sleep magic, which can be one of the most devastating effects a low level party can bump into. It's easy to see the Aasimar's flashy in your face bonuses while underestimating the potent static abilities of the core races.