Guide 4.2 and Changes to Pathfinder Society Organized Play

hyachi Ishirou wrote:

So RAW for the Gravewalker Witch, Undead Lord Cleric ,and Vivisectionist Alchemist there is no reason to ban them.

Depends on what you mean by RAW. From what I understand its the flavor of the classes thats the issue not anything in their particualar rules. (other than teh undeadlord some issues were raised about the possible time it takes to stat new corpse companions you were ready for.)

Well we aren't privy to the exact reasons. Nor are we likely to be. So we can't say 'RAW' was the reason. It might be class power, it might be class theme, it might be any number of factors. Since they're banned across the board, it's not an issue. If 4.3 were to come out tomorrow and say the Sage Sorcerer was banned, I'd sigh and either a) retire Rey, or b) rebuild him as a wizard.

If the Gunslinger debate (Which Mike was kind enough to share parts of) is any indication, there likely were a large number of reasons given. I'm not familiar enough with any of the archtypes to comment on their 'brokeness' or 'viability'.

Flavour is a valid reason to ban them though. Take the half-drow. Personally it's the best of all worlds for me (the cool dark skin, the awesome half elf options, and darkvision? Yes, please, lots). But they don't fit in Golarion as PCs. 'Our' drow are more Gygax than Salvatore* and half-breeds surviving, and making it to the surface are rarer than synthisists. Besides, if you want to play the 'emo outcast' you have the half-elf, half-orc, tiefling, aasimar, and heretic archtype, to name a few potential 'outcasts'.

So whatever the reasons that led to the decision, I'll adapt to it and move on.

Edit\*

I won't give specifics, but I will say definitively that no game feature was banned based on one single factor. Every feature was debated, measured, and weighed. The discussions to these were not done lightly. I'm sorry if anyone feels we are wrong, and I have yet to hear a point that wasn't raised in our private discussions.

Incidentally, I appreciate the heads-up about the changes coming ten days before they take effect. I imagine there might still be a bunch of people who show up at Gen-Con, surprised that they can't play their synthesist, but many of us have had time to rebuild with care. And even play one or two last sessions with a PC before changing.

Thanks.

Incidentally, I appreciate the heads-up about the changes coming ten days before they take effect. I imagine there might still be a bunch of people who show up at Gen-Con, surprised that they can't play their synthesist, but many of us have had time to rebuild with care. And even play one or two last sessions with a PC before changing.

Thanks.

Agreed.

I won't give specifics, but I will say definitively that no game feature was banned based on one single factor. Every feature was debated, measured, and weighed. The discussions to these were not done lightly. I'm sorry if anyone feels we are wrong, and I have yet to hear a point that wasn't raised in our private discussions.

Thank you Daniel.

Mike I have a question about Pg 32 Second full Paragraph second sentence.

PFS Guide Pg 32 wrote:

While we certainly encourage you to allow fun, engaging roleplaying to take place, if your players are still playing darts at the tavern an hour after the game started, you should prod them into action.

My question is, when are you going to start selling "Official" PFS GM Prods? ;)

Actually, it's shoots they put us through. Just like at a meat packing plant. Just like their, the PCs in the shoots are on a 'stairway to heaven'.

I imagine there might still be a bunch of people who show up at Gen-Con, surprised that they can't play their synthesist,

Good point..

Mike or Mark..

Any advice for us GM if we get a player that has a soon to be banned Archetype at our table at GenCon? They won't have time to rebuild at the table.

I imagine there might still be a bunch of people who show up at Gen-Con, surprised that they can't play their synthesist,

Good point. That could eat into the first session. GMs are going to have to be ready for that to stop games being held up for an hour.

That's why God made pre-gens. If you can't play your 7th-level Undead Lord and his li'l buddy, playing Kyra's almost as good.

I expect that will be the case, but I expect that to not go over well with some players.

I am not going to enjoy being that guy who tells the player that his PC has been banned.

That's why God made pre-gens. If you can't play your 7th-level Undead Lord and his li'l buddy, playing Kyra's almost as good.

7th level Kyra, swap in a summon monster or two every spell level in her non-domain slots. Win.

(note: I have actually done this. And yes, I had all the summon's stats up. Celestial rhinoceros or 1d3 lantern archons are a winner)

God made pre-gens.

Well, someone on the Paizo staff just got an ego boost!

I expect that will be the case, but I expect that to not go over well with some players.

Hell, it didn't go over terribly well on the boards, and we were in a much better situation. I'll go further and predict that it will go over well with exactly nobody affected.

I am not going to enjoy being that guy who tells the player that his PC has been banned.

That's why you get the big bucks.

That's why God made pre-gens. If you can't play your 7th-level Undead Lord and his li'l buddy, playing Kyra's almost as good.

Print cardstock Hayato and Kyra over the weekend: check.

(I'm only running tiers where level 7 is appropriate).

Going to GenCon and *not* checking the updated GtPSOP is asking for trouble.

My GenCon introduction spiel:

Hi, I'm Jon (TetsujinOni on the Paizo fora); I'm a lawful evil GM. I want you all to succeed in your mission... But the NPCs do not. Please be aware that Guide 4.2 is in effect now and raise your hand if you have one of the following class levels on the PC you intend to play today....

Although I'm hopeful that the HQ folks and marshaling judges can get the word out and point people to the Lone Wolf crew for rebuilds...

Pre round announcements could also be useful for taking the burden off table judges and onto HQ...

I think we should make Kyle the 'Official" Bearer of Bad news for GenCon.

We can give all the GMs a flag to raise when they have a PC that was banned and Kyle can come over with a speech card already written out for him.

"Sir or Ma'am I am sorry to inform you that your [archetype here] has been banned from official PFS play. Sadly due to time constraints you do not have time to rebuild your PC at this moment. You can however play one of these appropriately leveled Pregens for this slot (Hands out list of pregens). Your GM will explain to you the rules for gaining credit with a Pregen.

Later you can rebuild your PC using the rebuild rules I am about to provide you (Hand out card with rebuild rule). If you have any concerns please bring them to your Local VC, VL or post them on the Paizo PFS forums. I am sorry for this inconvenience; please take this boon that that will give you one free pass from death at one of my tables for that will surly happen if you are ever a player at my table. (Hands out Boon)."

I expect that will be the case, but I expect that to not go over well with some players.

I am not going to enjoy being that guy who tells the player that his PC has been banned.

Even if you have to be that guy, you can just point them to Mike and tell them to go complain to him. :P

(I really hope you dont have to be that guy, though. I hope no one has to be that guy. Being that guy kinda sucks.)

I will carry the bucket of being That-Guy for this instance of That-Guy.

... one free pass from death at one of [Kyle's] tables for that will surly happen ..."

;)

Seeing as I'll be at HQ for most of the con, I expect to be "That Guy" a lot.

Seeing as I'll be at HQ for most of the con, I expect to be "That Guy" a lot.

Your a Texan, you should be able to Handle it... You don't want a New Yorker to be that guy... ;)

Dragnmoon ... I still stand by my ruling that you're a Texan, too!
;-)

Seeing as I'll be at HQ for most of the con, I expect to be "That Guy" a lot.

... but drinking after, right? :)

Jonathan Cary wrote:

Seeing as I'll be at HQ for most of the con, I expect to be "That Guy" a lot.

... but drinking after, right? :)

Fo' shizzle

I won't give specifics, but I will say definitively that no game feature was banned based on one single factor. Every feature was debated, measured, and weighed. The discussions to these were not done lightly. I'm sorry if anyone feels we are wrong, and I have yet to hear a point that wasn't raised in our private discussions.

That helps, even without knowing the specifics. Thanks Daniel.

I expect that will be the case, but I expect that to not go over well with some players.

I am not going to enjoy being that guy who tells the player that his PC has been banned.

I will be in the PFS Gaming Hall the lion share of the time. Send them to me and I will tell them since I am the one who made the decision.

My wife will be at HQ a lot as well. She's a born and bred New Yorker. She'll be glad to thug for you, Mike.

Thank you for the update I am glade to see some of the races open to play, I can see my players changing their characters the day this goes into effect.

Hey, I've got a few quick questions - apologies if these are silly, but I looked around and didn't see them asked before, so these might just be things that I don't get for some reason...

1st - HP

If your character later takes levels in another class, she gains the amount indicated in the Hit Dice column for all levels in that class, including 1st level.

So if a character is Fighter 1 / Ranger 1 (assuming a Con of 10 and no favored class bonuses to hp), would they have 20 hp, or 16 hp?

(the below questions suddenly relevant both pre- and post-4.2 guide due to a scenario I recently ran)

2nd - GM awards

The subtier for which a GM’s character receives credit depends on the character’s level. If a GM with a 1st-level rogue runs a Tier 1–5 scenario using Subtier 1–2, she takes a Subtier 1–2 Chronicle sheet for her 1st-level rogue. If she instead runs a Tier 1–5 scenario using Subtier 4–5, she still takes a Subtier 1–2 Chronicle sheet, as her PC clearly falls within the lower subtier.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but - say I have a level 4 character as my "main" but a few level 1-2 characters as well, and I run a 1-5 for sub-tier 1-2 characters. Can I select to get that chronicle on my level 4 character? If so, does he receive it at subtier 4-5 because that's *his* level or at 1-2 since that's the level of the scenario that was played?

3rd - Pregenerated character reporting
I know that a player using a pregenerated character either applies that chronicle/credit to a new level 1 character, or, if they play a higher-level pregenerated character than their character, they can hold the chronicle sheet until they reach that level.

That being said, how do I report when that happens? If a player wants to hold a chronicle for their character, do I report it with that character ID#? I want to make sure my players don't end up with an odd discrepancy in their chronicle sheet records if they have, say, a subtier 4-5 scenario that appears chronologically before their character reached level 4, etc.

---

Thanks very much, and sorry again if these are really simple or have been asked before and I missed them!

Guide 4.2 page 10 wrote:

If your character later takes levels in another class, she gains the amount indicated in the Hit Dice column for all levels in that class, including 1st level.

That's pretty obviously a mistake - it should read "... gains the amount indicated in the Hit Points Gained per Level column".

It looks as though this error has been around since January - it seems to have come in with V4.1 of the guide. Good catch!

Hey, I've got a few quick questions - apologies if these are silly, but I looked around and didn't see them asked before, so these might just be things that I don't get for some reason...

1st - HP

Guide 4.2 page 10 wrote:

If your character later takes levels in another class, she gains the amount indicated in the Hit Dice column for all levels in that class, including 1st level.

So if a character is Fighter 1 / Ranger 1 (assuming a Con of 10 and no favored class bonuses to hp), would they have 20 hp, or 16 hp?

(the below questions suddenly relevant both pre- and post-4.2 guide due to a scenario I recently ran)

2nd - GM awards

Guide 4.2 page 38 wrote:

The subtier for which a GM’s character receives credit depends on the character’s level. If a GM with a 1st-level rogue runs a Tier 1–5 scenario using Subtier 1–2, she takes a Subtier 1–2 Chronicle sheet for her 1st-level rogue. If she instead runs a Tier 1–5 scenario using Subtier 4–5, she still takes a Subtier 1–2 Chronicle sheet, as her PC clearly falls within the lower subtier.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but - say I have a level 4 character as my "main" but a few level 1-2 characters as well, and I run a 1-5 for sub-tier 1-2 characters. Can I select to get that chronicle on my level 4 character? If so, does he receive it at subtier 4-5 because that's *his* level or at 1-2 since that's the level of the scenario that was played?

3rd - Pregenerated character reporting
I know that a player using a pregenerated character either applies that chronicle/credit to a new level 1 character, or, if they play a higher-level pregenerated character than their character, they can hold the chronicle sheet until they reach that level.

That being said, how do I report when that happens? If a player wants to hold a chronicle for their character, do I report it with that character ID#? I want to make sure my players don't end up with an odd discrepancy in their chronicle sheet records if they have, say, a...

Thanks for pointing out the bad language in the HP text. We will fix that in e next guide.

If you have PCs in both sub tiers, after GMing a game, you can chose which of the two you want to apply credit to. If you apply it to the level 4 character, you get the 4-5, if you apply it to the level 1 character, you get the 1-2.

Report whatever character the player wants the chronicle sheet to eventually be assigned to when they reach the level of the pregen character.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but - say I have a level 4 character as my "main" but a few level 1-2 characters as well, and I run a 1-5 for sub-tier 1-2 characters. Can I select to get that chronicle on my level 4 character? If so, does he receive it at subtier 4-5 because that's *his* level or at 1-2 since that's the level of the scenario that was played?

Yes, you can apply it to any character that would qualify to play it, and you receive the rewards appropriate to that character's current level. (In addition, starting August 16, you also get the ability to take any boons the chronicle offers as well.) So if you apply it to a level 4 or 5 character, he gets Subtier 4-5 credit, but if you apply it to a level 1, 2, or 3 character, he gets the Subtier 1-2 credit.

That being said, how do I report when that happens? If a player wants to hold a chronicle for their character, do I report it with that character ID#? I want to make sure my players don't end up with an odd discrepancy in their chronicle sheet records if they have, say, a...

You select the character who is to receive the credit while at the table, so the GM can report it to that character ID. If that character is not yet level-eligible for the chronicle, then it waits until it is eligible, and then gets applied immediately. The player does not get to take the chronicle home and hold it for a while before deciding whom to apply it to. (This rule also applies to the GM - you decide what character is going to get the credit when you sign the form, even if that character doesn't yet exist. If you GM the same level 1 scenario enough times, you have to start applying to future characters by number, for that "someday" when you get around to making a new one.)

[EDIT] Ninja'd by Mike!

Rinaldo, you can also not take a character credit for GMing the scenario as many times as you want.

Rinaldo, you can also not take a character credit for GMing the scenario as many times as you want.

I believe he was referring to Tier 1 scenarios, for which you can take GM credit more than once (for different PCs).

Of course Tier 1-5 and Tier 1-5 scenarios you only get GM credit once (even if you run them at level 1 or want to apply the credit to a level 1 PC).

TetsujinOni wrote:

Rinaldo, you can also not take a character credit for GMing the scenario as many times as you want.

I believe he was referring to Tier 1 scenarios, for which you can take GM credit more than once (for different PCs).

Of course Tier 1-5 and Tier 1-5 scenarios you only get GM credit once (even if you run them at level 1 or want to apply the credit to a level 1 PC).

Yes, Don is reading me correctly, but that's an important point to clarify.

That's hardly been discussed in this thread, but I love the new Level 1 character retraining option. I don't know what precisely prompted this addition, but as a relatively new player I'm very thankful for this.

That's hardly been discussed in this thread, but I love the new Level 1 character retraining option. I don't know what precisely prompted this addition, but as a relatively new player I'm very thankful for this.

The level 1 retraining may be the only thing in the history of PFS that was (nearly) universally agreed on to be a good idea.

The level 1 retraining may be the only thing in the history of PFS that was (nearly) universally agreed on to be a good idea.

Oh not at all. When I and others first suggested it, (even in more limited ways) it was almost completely disliked by most people on the grounds of being cheesy, on being even more confussing to new players, for introducing more complication with chronicle sheets, and other things.

You must be remembering something very different than I recall, Beckett. I remember Mike starting a thread to ask what people thought of first-level-only rebuilds. There was something like 99% support (and that's being conservative). I can't specifically remember anyone saying they didn't like it.

I pers. love the retraining option. My general house rule anyway (most especially for new players) is that prior to the level 2 'increase' they could alter their skill rank placement.
This basically formalizes and expands upon it. My players of 8 think its great.

Take Boat wrote:

So do full-level rebuilds get to change their ability scores or are we going to have a bunch of ex-synthesists running around with hilariously dumped physical scores?

No, people do not get to change ability scores.

I want to start this by saying that I respect the decisions that have been made, and will (of course) abide by them. I've always been a rather by-the-book type of person and I don't plan to stop being one now.

That being said, I was wondering the logic behind the decision to not allow a change in ability scores to affected characters. I'm not whining or "demanding" that such a ruling should or must be changed. Rather, I simply seek to understand the "why" of it's ruling.

I myself have an affected character and due to this ruling he will be made unplayable. Now, to be fair, I could still play as him, but I think that many will agree with me in that playing any character that is super sub-optimal (aka far, far worse than the pre-generated characters) is less fun. I daresay that playing him wouldn't even be fun at all but rather more like trying to walk up a hill with a boulder strapped to my back.

On a side note, I too LOVE the level 1 retraining option. It's a great way to try something fresh without ever being burned for it.

The ruling was changed. You can change your ability scores.

Jonathan Cary wrote:

bigwave wrote:

I guess my point/request is for a Power That Be to clarify : can you apply a chronicle from playing a non-1st level pre-gen to ANY PC (once that PC reaches the appropriate level)?

Yes.

Guide to Pathfinder Organized Play, v.4.2 wrote:

If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you can apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played.

(Emphasis mine) It doesn't get much more explicit than that.

Bigwave, when you play the pregen you have to fill out the tracking sheet for the game and indicate which PC will get the credit for that game. As in PFS#-1 or PFS#-2, etc.

The PC you choose does not have to exist yet, but you do have to choose one. If it is a new PC then you can apply the Chronicle adjusted for level 1 immediately. Or I suppose, you could hold the Chronicle until that particular PC reaches the level of the pregen played.

@ Don : Good point about assigning the sheet to a number right away... I was aware of it, this question was more for future reference.

@ Johnathan : I DO understand what you're saying, and agree - I'm just trying to point out to the PTB that this part CAN be interpreted in more than one way, which is something we've had trouble with in the past, BUT ... (and sorry to go all grammar nazi here,)
Yes, it does specifically say "apply credit to your character" - the vagueness arises because since most players have more than one character, "your character" doesn't refer to a unique, unambiguous thing, and therefore is open to the possibility of interpretation. Since it comes right after talking about creating a new 1st level character, and doesn't specifically state "any existing character", it COULD be interpreted either way - whether "your character" is referring to the last specific example, (i.e. the new 1st lvl PC) or is in fact referring to any of the player's characters, either new or existing.

Nice update!!!! Love the new races...I was hoping I would not have to wait for a boon to play a tengu! Thanks!!!

Michael Brock wrote:

Take Boat wrote:

So do full-level rebuilds get to change their ability scores or are we going to have a bunch of ex-synthesists running around with hilariously dumped physical scores?

No, people do not get to change ability scores.

I want to start this by saying that I respect the decisions that have been made, and will (of course) abide by them. I've always been a rather by-the-book type of person and I don't plan to stop being one now.

That being said, I was wondering the logic behind the decision to not allow a change in ability scores to affected characters. I'm not whining or "demanding" that such a ruling should or must be changed. Rather, I simply seek to understand the "why" of it's ruling.

I myself have an affected character and due to this ruling he will be made unplayable. Now, to be fair, I could still play as him, but I think that many will agree with me in that playing any character that is super sub-optimal (aka far, far worse than the pre-generated characters) is less fun. I daresay that playing him wouldn't even be fun at all but rather more like trying to walk up a hill with a boulder strapped to my back.

On a side note, I too LOVE the level 1 retraining option. It's a great way to try something fresh without ever being burned for it.

You can ability scores.

@ Johnathan : I DO understand what you're saying, and agree - I'm just trying to point out to the PTB that this part CAN be interpreted in more than one way, which is something we've had trouble with in the past, BUT ... (and sorry to go all grammar nazi here,)

Yes, it does specifically say "apply credit to your character" - the vagueness arises because since most players have more than one character, "your character" doesn't refer to a unique, unambiguous thing, and therefore is open to the possibility of interpretation. Since it comes right after talking about creating a new 1st level character, and doesn't specifically state "any existing character", it COULD be interpreted either way - whether "your character" is referring to the last specific example, (i.e. the new 1st lvl PC) or is in fact referring to any of the player's characters, either new or existing.

Whereas:

Therefore:
- it is up to the player's choice.

I don't see the ambiguity, but maybe I've been playing I these campaigns for too long and have lost some of my ability to see rules text with "fresh eyes."

The phrase "apply credit to your character" refers specifically to the character you listed on the tracking sheet when you played the adventure.

Since you have to fill out the tracking sheet (or you don't get a Chronicle) AND you have to indicate a specific character on the tracking sheet (and the Chronicle for that matter), there is no ambiguity. It is not open to interpretation.

You need to consider the big picture and not just a few lines of text when playing the game. Everything ties together at some point.

The phrase "apply credit to your character" refers specifically to the character you listed on the tracking sheet when you played the adventure.

Since you have to fill out the tracking sheet (or you don't get a Chronicle) AND you have to indicate a specific character on the tracking sheet (and the Chronicle for that matter), there is no ambiguity. It is not open to interpretation.

You need to consider the big picture and not just a few lines of text when playing the game. Everything ties together at some point.

Indeed. I have starting following something I stole from other GMs in that I fill out the player's PFS number and character number on the chronicles before handing them out using whatever was filled in on the tracking sheet.

I just wanted to say Thank You to all the good people at Paizo for bearing with us (gamers) through this transition.

It can be rough to see that your favorite character is no longer allowed or that boon you saved for a year is worthless, and as a result we can get pretty passionate about our feelings. yet through it all you've been working with us, listening to our complaints and addressing them as needbe in a professional and curdious manner. I am grateful to be playing a game by a company that actually listens to its customers and takes them into consideration.

And so I say with utmost sincerety

Thank you.

The ruling was changed. You can change your ability scores.

Oh I see... Well then, please ignore my last post. Thank you for letting me know. Lol, I feel rather embarrassed now.