Does the Wizard get hit with an AoO?


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If a wizard were to cast Shrink Item and attempt to touch a hill giants club would the hill giant get an AoO?

Just to be clear the Wizard cast the spell using combat casting sucessfully, but is the act of trying to touch the club AoO worthy?


He would not provoke, but he would need to roll an attack roll vs the Giant's Touch AC.

PRD: Combat wrote:

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity.


Mage Evolving wrote:

If a wizard were to cast Shrink Item and attempt to touch a hill giants club would the hill giant get an AoO?

Just to be clear the Wizard cast the spell using combat casting sucessfully, but is the act of trying to touch the club AoO worthy?

Not sure RAW but i would say yes since both sunder and disarm provoke AoO.


Talonhawke wrote:
Not sure RAW but i would say yes since both sunder and disarm provoke AoO.

Err.. I just posted the RAW regarding spells with a range of touch above you, sir.


Page 185 of Core:

"Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell
is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does
not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a
spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity."


yeah i was looking at it however attacking you with sword doesn't provoke but attacking your weapon with my sword does. Thats why i say it isn't covered.


Talonhawke wrote:
yeah i was looking at it however attacking you with sword doesn't provoke but attacking your weapon with my sword does. Thats why i say it isn't covered.

This is where we ran into some trouble. It's not really an attack and I'm not touching the opponent but attempting to touch the opponents weapon ala sunder or disarm.


Mage Evolving wrote:


This is where we ran into some trouble. It's not really an attack and I'm not touching the opponent but attempting to touch the opponents weapon ala sunder or disarm.

I'm not seeing the issue... makes no difference if you're attacking the person or their equipment with a touch spell. No AoOs. It still falls under the same rules regardless of target.

The only reason Combat Maneuvers provoke is because it is written in the rules that these actions provoke. The rules for touch spells are different and have their own caveats.


The rule on being armed means it uses the same rule as using a weapon. Improved unarmed strike gives the same wording however if i try to disarm you without improved disarm i still provoke.


Talonhawke wrote:
The rule on being armed means it uses the same rule as using a weapon. Improved unarmed strike gives the same wording however if i try to disarm you without improved disarm i still provoke.

You are not performing a combat maneuver when you attempt to touch a target with your spell. You are performing a Touch Attack (see rules above).

Again, the reason you provoke during a disarm with Improved Unarmed Strike is because you do not have the Improved Disarm feat which negates the AoO from Disarm Combat Maneuvers - which has nothing to do with the character being armed or not. All combat maneuvers provoke an attack of opportunity without feats or special exceptions.

The reason the line of Rules text is in there is because if you touch an opponent (without a spell), you'll provoke an attack of opportunity, since touching an oppoinent is an attack (hence Touch Attack) and would be an unarmed attack.

---

Aside:

If a character who is unarmed and does not possess Improved Unarmed Strike or Improved Disarm attempts to Disarm a creature, they will provoke exactly one attack of opportunity (from the Disarm Attempt). The fact that they are not armed does not factor into this situation.

Liberty's Edge

Mage Evolving wrote:

If a wizard were to cast Shrink Item and attempt to touch a hill giants club would the hill giant get an AoO?

Just to be clear the Wizard cast the spell using combat casting sucessfully, but is the act of trying to touch the club AoO worthy?

Targeting an attended object with a spell is more-or-less a called shot, an option that isn't covered with the core rules.


Howie23 wrote:
Mage Evolving wrote:

If a wizard were to cast Shrink Item and attempt to touch a hill giants club would the hill giant get an AoO?

Just to be clear the Wizard cast the spell using combat casting sucessfully, but is the act of trying to touch the club AoO worthy?

Targeting an attended object with a spell is more-or-less a called shot, an option that isn't covered with the core rules.

Which is why i compared to a disarm or sunder in this case to things that do target a weapon. Also bumped for FAQ


I disagree with Stynkk's reasoning.

"Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

The wizard isn't touching the opponent; he is touching the opponent's weapon. Therefore the spell is not a touch attack.

I have marked the original question as an FAQ candidate.


Howie23 wrote:
Targeting an attended object with a spell is more-or-less a called shot, an option that isn't covered with the core rules.

I am surprised at you Howie.

Magic: Saving Throws wrote:

(object)

The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.

Can you cast a spell on objects? Yes, techically you're casting it on the creature, touching them and the object of your choosing.

Shrink Item ---> Target is Hill Giant ---> Roll Touch AC --> if succeed, touch the object --> since it is attended it rolls a saving throw ---> results

I assume this is proof enough.

Shrink Item has a Range of Touch, therefore it is a touch Attack, I'll quote for you again: You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.


Stynkk wrote:

Yes, techically you're casting it on the creature, touching them and the object of your choosing.

Shrink Item ---> Target is Hill Giant ---> Roll Touch AC --> if succeed, touch the object --> since it is attended it rolls a saving throw ---> results

The rule does not say that you're casting it on the creature. The target is not the hill giant.


Axl wrote:

This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects.

The rule does not say that you're casting it on the creature. The target is not the hill giant.

This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects.

We disagree. This is directly taken from the Magic chapter about spells that target objects.

Liberty's Edge

Stynkk wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
Targeting an attended object with a spell is more-or-less a called shot, an option that isn't covered with the core rules.
I am surprised at you Howie.

I stand corrected. Thanks.


You could call it a CMB if you want, if you did though I would give the Wizard his Int mod to the roll. That is how other spells like hydralic push ect work. I think in my game id keep it simple as a touch attack as normal though to lessen confusion.


Howie23 wrote:
I stand corrected. Thanks.

S'ok. I'm sure you'll get me next time :)


Now instead of Quoting the saving throw rules try the aiming rules buddy.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets.
You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined
by the spell itself.
You must be able to see or touch the
target, and you must specifically choose that target. You
do not have to select your target until you finish casting
the spell.

Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level

Liberty's Edge

Stynkk wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
I stand corrected. Thanks.
S'ok. I'm sure you'll get me next time :)

I've never seen a touch attack used against an attended object before and I'm really unsure how it works. It's an oddity and I'm not convinced that the rules that have been cited on touch attacks and the object descriptor were written with this in mind. It's def'ly grey.


Talonhawke wrote:

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets.

You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined
by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the
target, and you must specifically choose that target. You
do not have to select your target until you finish casting
the spell.

Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level

Can you see the target? Yis. Can you touch the target? Yis. (the saving throws rules text specifically call out that you can affect an attended object with a spell, which is why they were referenced). Ergo, you can target an object with a touch spell.

Why you say? Shrink Item does not say anything about "this spell has no affect on an attended object". Nor is Shrink Item restricted to willing targets only (unattended objects).

So, I think I have already addressed your point. Yes, you can touch an attended object, but normally it doesn't do anything for you.

@howie

Obscure indeed.


The point is i am not going for the creature but the weapon in the same style of sunder.


Talonhawke wrote:
The point is i am not going for the creature but the weapon in the same style of sunder.

This I understand, however the rules you're suggesting simply do not exist.

The spell has a range of touch and would be discharged via a touch attack.

Or, You could "hold the charge" and try to do an unarmed Disarm Attempt, to touch the weapon with your CM Attempt, but that seems quite clunky mechanically.


Stynkk wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
The point is i am not going for the creature but the weapon in the same style of sunder.

This I understand, however the rules you're suggesting simply do not exist.

The spell has a range of touch and would be discharged via a touch attack.

Or, You could "hold the charge" and try to do an unarmed Disarm Attempt, to touch the weapon with your CM Attempt, but that seems quite clunky mechanically.

Technically rules for this don't exist as all thats i hit faq the rules don't say outside of sunder or disarm how you go about targeting something carried.

Liberty's Edge

I believe it is up for debate as it is not clearly defined. The wizard is making a touch attack against an item, not the opponent.

I know Sunder is a combat manouevre but I personally would take that as a guide and would say the wizard provokes an AoO.

Stynkk wrote:

This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects.

We disagree. This is directly taken from the Magic chapter about spells that target objects.

I think the text "This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects" is just saying that because a spell has the "(object)" note against its Saving Throw entry it does not necessarily mean the spell can only be cast on items. For example Invisibility can be cast on both creatures or objects.

Instead we should look to the Target entry for a spell to determine whether it can be cast against only objects. Shrink Item can only be cast against items, and not creatures. So the target of the spell cannot be the Giant, but must be his weapon specifically.

If the wizard was casting Invisibility on the giant, then the wizard could target the giant himself (and wouldn't therefore provoke an AoO), and the spell would also affect his gear. If the giant wanted to resist being turned invisible for some reason he would resist, and his items would also get to make saving throws as well because "they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell". So you could get the situation where the giant fails his save and becomes invisible but some of his gear makes the save and stays visible. :)


To the best of my knowledge, the only rules that exist about targeting attended items with 'attacks' exist as the sunder rules. I don't think you'll find hard and fast rules on this any more than you will trying to choke a monk by shrinking the amulet of mighty fists around their neck.

Gut instinct?

The Sunder CM is to hit the weapon in a meaningful manner. You roll damage afterward as if you connected with a normal attack (just targeted at the weapon instead of the wielder).

If he attempted to do this will chill touch, shocking grasp or what have you other spell that did damage to items, I don't think that anyone would argue that would be the rule set you'd follow (Basically Sunder except using a spell as the Melee attack).

Only diff here is that instead of it being a sunder through damage, it's a 'Save or Sunder'.

Roll it as sunder to connect (taking the AaO on the way through). If it connects, roll the save instead of the damage. Save fails, you have an iddy biddy great axe... Til the Giant drops it as a free action on his turn deciding that he'd rather punch you than be seen wielding THAT in front of his mates.

From the PFSRD (Note to self: Get books out of the car). "... Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or..."

So net effect it would be burning a 3rd level spell to perform a disarm.... maybe with a GM bonus to CMB because a Sunder is normally with a normal weapon that requires a normal 'to hit' roll, but this is a touch attack. Even that would be open to interp though because sundering someone's armor... you WANT to hit the armor, not the meaty bit underneath.


Well, well... let's increase the fun a bit...

Let's say I'd like to shrink someone's shiny plate armor... what happens?

Silver Crusade

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding and misreading here. Let us review:

Let us start with Combat Maneuver from the Getting Started section.

prd wrote:


Combat Maneuver: This is an action taken in combat that does not directly cause harm to your opponent, such as attempting to trip him, disarm him, or grapple with him (see Combat).

So an action that does not directly cause harm to your opponent is a combat maneuver. Possibly not relevant for magic but sets the precedent that opponents and their equipment are separate things.

prd wrote:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

This section specifically references opponents. Opponents are creatures not equipment or objects. It would be and armed attack if you touched an opponent. But you are not you are trying to touch his weapon. Some have made the argument that the save language means you are touching the opponent. That is incorrect.

srd wrote:

Shrink Item

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range touch

Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level

Duration 1 day/level; see text

Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)

Target is an object not creature. Saving throw is Will.

srd wrote:
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.

Here we see that held objects use the saving throws of the creature holding it (unless it has a greater inherent bonus). It is important to note here that the language uses is that the object USES the creatures saving throws not that the creature gets a saving throw to avoid it. This is a critical distinction in discovering that it is the object that is attacked and not the creature. The creature holding the object can resist the spell (or not) but that only determines if a save is made or not. The object is still the one making the save.

So now we have an unarmed touch attack which threatens and AOO. If someone threatens the square (as the weapon wielder does) then he gets to make an AOO.

Silver Crusade

This question might not come up depending on the caster's actions during combat.

prd wrote:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

In this specific case we have a wizard (medium or small) and a hill giant who is large with 10 ft reach.

The two possible scenarios:

1) Wizard is with 10ft, casts Shrink and provokes an AOO. If he makes the concentration check then my argument above applies meaning another AOO (though the giant just used his 1/rnd).

2) Wizard is outside of 10ft, casts shrink and moves to touch club. Since his reach is 5ft he has to stand next to the giant. As he moves through the 10ft mark he suffers and AOO.


Or he simply casts defensively and doesn't provoke the AoO -- or the giant approaches him and then he five foot steps and doesn't provoke.

Touch attacks do not provoke -- the wizard doesn't provoke -- he is not performing a combat maneuver he is completing a spell with a touch attack. IF such touch attacks on objects provoked then the rules for using spells on objects would specifically say so. Since they don't the spell targeting an object doesn't provoke anymore than touching an enemy with ghoul touch, disfiguring touch, toxic gift, fleshworm infestation, bestow curse, contagion, or touch of slime.

Silver Crusade

Abraham spalding wrote:
Or he simply casts defensively and doesn't provoke the AoO -- or the giant approaches him and then he five foot steps and doesn't provoke.

That is an option, if he makes the roll. I was listing options that resulted in AOOs.

Abraham spalding wrote:
attacks do not provoke -- the wizard doesn't provoke -- he is not performing a combat maneuver he is completing a spell with a touch attack. IF such touch attacks on objects provoked then the rules for using spells on objects would specifically say so. Since they don't the spell targeting an object doesn't provoke anymore than touching an enemy with ghoul touch, disfiguring touch, toxic gift, fleshworm infestation, bestow curse, contagion, or touch of slime.

I did not say he was performing a combat maneuver. I was using that quote to show how opponents and their equipment are often considered seperate things.

Following on that I quoted the section of the rules that show that touching an opponent with touch spell is considered an armed attack. That particular case is called out in the rules. Exceptions to the spell use creates an attack of opportunity threat are usually spelled out in the rules like defensive casting. The general rule is that using a spell in a threatened area allows an attack of opportunity.

So the question is, was the wizard touching an opponent?

The answer is no. He was touching equipment held by an opponent. The equipment of an opponent is special enough to warrant special attacks, i.e. disarm & sunder. Objects are equipment.

The spell itself will never affect the hill giant, he is not an object. The spell cannot attack him. He is the opponent. The club is not the opponent. By attacking the club he is not making a Touch Attack as defined in the combat section. Since his action does not fall under one of the spell casting special cases then he provokes an attack of opportunity.


No he doesn't because you are completely ignoring this part:

Quote:
A spell with this kind of area affects objects within an area you select (as Creatures, but affecting objects instead).

No AoO is provoked because it isn't provoked when using it such a spell on creatures and using a spell that affects objects works the same as affecting creatures.

Simply affecting an object -- even an attended object doesn't provoke AoOs -- or the rules would specifically state as much.

You are inferring rules that say something contrary to what the actual rules state.

Silver Crusade

I don't need to consider it. That quote refers to the area of effect. It does not say objects are creatures it merely refers to the Creatures section of the Area description. To quote the portion referenced:

srd wrote:

Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape.

or to change that up with creatures replaced with objects:

srd creatures/Objects wrote:
Objects: A spell with this kind of area affects objects directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all objects in an area of some kind rather than individual objects you select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape.

So it does not mean to say that you treat the objects as if they were creature (i.e. opponents) but that you treat them as the creature section under area says. That section does not help you at all. So you are in fact inferring something that does not exist.

Abraham spalding wrote:
Simply affecting an object -- even an attended object doesn't provoke AoOs -- or the rules would specifically state as much.

The rules work where they make exceptions to the general rule. The general rule with spells is that they provoke. A few exceptions exist: using an attack spell against an opponent, casting defensively, maybe one or two more. Attacking objects is not given an exception so it falls under the general rule.

Asking the rules to cover everything is silly. It would require an unwieldy stupid rulebook. It creates all sorts of problems where people say "well the rules don't specifically say I can't do it."


Technically its not a sunder attempt: its an attack on a weapon. We know that sunder draws an AoO, but not all attacks on weapons.

-No aoo

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:

He would not provoke, but he would need to roll an attack roll vs the Giant's Touch AC.

And since the object is attended, it gets the giant's save to resist the spell.

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Technically its not a sunder attempt: its an attack on a weapon. We know that sunder draws an AoO, but not all attacks on weapons.

Apart from Sunder (and Disarm) what other attacks on weapons are defined / described in the rules?


DigitalMage wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Technically its not a sunder attempt: its an attack on a weapon. We know that sunder draws an AoO, but not all attacks on weapons.
Apart from Sunder (and Disarm) what other attacks on weapons are defined / described in the rules?

Spell touch attacks, which don't draw AoOs


BigNorseWolf wrote:
DigitalMage wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Technically its not a sunder attempt: its an attack on a weapon. We know that sunder draws an AoO, but not all attacks on weapons.
Apart from Sunder (and Disarm) what other attacks on weapons are defined / described in the rules?
Spell touch attacks, which don't draw AoOs

Which goes back to an earlier comment. If I cast shocking grasp, and then use it to sunder your weapon, I draw an AoO.

Are you saying I can cast shocking grasp, and just target your weapon, and thus bypass all of the normal rules for Sunder?

Further, what is the touch AC of the giants weapon? The only place that denotes how hard it is to hit a weapon being wielded is the sunder and disarm sections. So you would use the Sunder rules to hit, but not the rest of the sunder rules?

There are good arguments both ways, but I am leaning toward, it should be treated as a sunder.

Definately a FAQ canidate.


karkon wrote:

I don't need to consider it. That quote refers to the area of effect.

No it isn't: The quote is under "Targeting a spell" unless you are saying that the creatures part is also under the AOE rules (which it is technically as in it is below the rules for AOE -- however both are their own separate paragraphs with their own separate headers of the same size, font, and status as the AOE rules are).

And if you don't like that answer I have another:

Quote:
You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.

Please note the lack of anything saying you provoke when making a touch attack.

There is also a lack of anything suggesting your position is correct in the combat section on making AoO's, the section that covers attended objects or anywhere else in the game.

The only place you can even start to draw an inference from is the combat maneuver rules of which the majority don't even deal with objects (attended or otherwise) in the first place.


Since the rules don't specifically deal with this case, at my table, I would go with the 3.5 rules for attacking a held object: AC 10 + object's size modifier + wielder's dexterity modifier, which provokes an attack of opportunity. He's attacking the object not the giant.

This rule (in a modified form) is on page 173 of the Core Rulebook, under smashing and object: "Smashing an object is like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your combat maneuver check is opposed by the object’s AC."

I think making it a sunder attempt is overly harsh as CMB and CMD both rely on BAB and Strength which are not the strong suit of most casters and all he needs to do is touch it, not necessarily get a solid hit.

I would be very interested to see what the developers had in mind.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I can't see it being a sunder, disarm or smashing attack.

The caster is only trying to touch the object, not damage it or send it flying.


Mistwalker wrote:

I can't see it being a sunder, disarm or smashing attack.

The caster is only trying to touch the object, not damage it or send it flying.

OK, fine, what's the object's touch AC?


Hm... maybe it's AC minus any armor, natural armor or shield bonuses?

Quote:
Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.

Silver Crusade

I will try to reframe my argument to make it clearer. Let us start with the relevant section on touch spells in combat (I added some italics):

prd wrote:

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

The first section talks about touching the subject, the target, a friend, or yourself. It then gets into touching an opponent. Touching an opponent with a touch attack is an armed attack. I do not dispute that. But with shrink we have a special case. Shrink Item does not affect creatures. It affect objects and things. Touching the hill giant does nothing as he is not a valid target.

So the caster needs to touch the object he wishes to shrink in this case the club. Now the club is not an opponent. It is an object, if it were considered part of an opponent then it would not be affected.

Looking at the touch attack section it specifically calls out opponents. This particular touch spell does not fit the parameters and thus is not considered an armed attack. Therefore it provokes an attack of opportunity.

You cannot argue that the club is an opponent. You cannot argue that the club is a creature. Both of these must be true to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity.


I don't think Shrink Item is meant to be used offensively. I would errata the spell to clarify that the target must be an unattended item or item you are holding.

As others have clarified, Pathfinder does not have generic rules for targeting held objects other than through the use of combat maneuvers.

Silver Crusade

I am fine with it being used offensively. It is clever thinking and that makes for more interesting games.


I'm pretty sure touching a creature or anything it is attending all counts as touching the creature for normal mechanics. That is, after all, the entire point of a touch attack. Armor doesn't provide protection because a touch is enough. You aren't somehow slipping your finger between the pieces of somebody's full plate, past their underclothes and touching their skin when you hit them with a touch attack. I'd say shrink item used on an object is effectively a touch attack on that creature and would therefore have no effect. After all, how does a caster distinguish that his touch against somebody's armor is meant to hit the creature but against their weapon is meant to shrink it?

That said, if somebody wanted to do it in my home game, to me it's clearly a combat maneuver. I would let the caster made a sunder check and instead of causing damage, it would do shrink item. No AoO if you have Improved Sunder.

Seems balanced to me. If you really want to be using shrink item as a sunder/disarm alternative, you can and can even use regular sunder feats to get better at it. You also need to be able to cast 3rd lvl wiz/sor spells, be able to stand in melee, and invest in improving your CMB. Perhaps a bizarre Magus tactic?


karkon wrote:


Looking at the touch attack section it specifically calls out opponents. This particular touch spell does not fit the parameters and thus is not considered an armed attack. Therefore it provokes an attack of opportunity.

You cannot argue that the club is an opponent. You cannot argue that the club is a creature. Both of these must be true to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity.

This is the part I have a problem with.

1. Nothing states that attacking an object provokes an attack of opportunity.

Combat maneuvers provoke -- attacks do not.

You seem to be suggesting it isn't an attack on a creature so it is an unarmed attack so it provokes:

The problem with this?

Quote:


Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed.

So okay -- I provoke an attack of opportunity -- from the creature I attacked since I didn't attack a creature I'm not provoking an attack of opportunity (or rather I'm attacking a club which isn't armed and doesn't have the ability to take attacks of opportunity).

So even if I go about it your way -- I still don't provoke from the giant.

Silver Crusade

You are not attacking a creature. You are attacking a held object.

So, here the rules fail us in terms of specific direction. This is where people are taking cues from combat maneuvers in that if you attack a held weapon you suffer an attack of opportunity from the creature holding the weapon. Also the concept that held and worn objects get the saving throws of the wielding creature favors that interpretation. As far a specific rules on that subject...we have none.

I do not think that recommends against my path as even with no attack of opportunity the question is: what is the rule to target a specific piece of equipment? The only rules that provide solutions are the combat maneuver rules for sunder and disarm. Which leads back to an attack of opportunity question.

I think we are all on the same page on allowing this action.

Let me set aside my interpretation and ask if you would allow a caster in your game to disarm almost any opponent with just a touch attack? I think the answer is no. So what would you do to make it a little harder within the rules? Attack of opportunity? Combat Maneuver?

I could see a crazy extensive rules argument come out of this. Where does the item shrink to? Is the hill giant holding a tiny cloth version of his weapon? Or does it flutter to the ground? If he is holding it does it spring back into being when he smashes the fist holding it into someone? Does his fist count as a solid surface? Are these all valid questions?

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