Can I release a hand from a 2h firearm and then regrip through reloading?

[VladM]

Can I release a hand from a 2h firearm and then regrip through reloading?

As the title says: can I release a hand from a 2h firearm, do something with that free hand (as battle medicine for example), and then reload (with regrip) and shoot?

To be more specific: would this following chain of actions be valid?

\- Release (free action)

\- Battle Medicine (1 action)

\- Reload (1 action)

\- Strike (1 action)

Thank you.

[NorrKnekten]

Answer is yes, infact reload requires one of your hands to be free to begin with.

Player Core pg. 276 Reload wrote:

Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.

[Arutema]

"Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon." -- source

[Finoan]

There might be a case for not allowing it if Reloading a weapon required wielding the weapon to begin with.

But as far as I can tell, there is no such rule (I'm sure someone will correct me on that if I am wrong ;). From the look of it, there isn't even an action named "Reload" - only Interact. Reloading a weapon uses Interact actions. And those can be done on held items, unattended items, or even items that allies are holding as long as they are within your natural reach. So there is a pretty good argument that you could reload firearms in any of those locations too.

And yeah, the regrip at the end doesn't depend on benefiting from the free release at the beginning.

[graystone]

Finoan wrote:

There might be a case for not allowing it if Reloading a weapon required wielding the weapon to begin with.

The argument would be "You can draw, pick up, or hold an item that needs two hands using only one hand, but you need to subsequently change your grip to hold it in two hands if you want to wield or use it." IMO, reloading would fall under using it. The counter argument would be that "Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon" is a more specific rule.

[siegfriedliner]

its kind of funny mechanically you probably need to re-grip to reload but the action to unload is going from holding the weapon in two hands, honestly I wonder if most weapons should be one hand plus rather than two.

[Ravingdork]

This works fine unless your firearm has the FATAL AIM trait.

Fatal Aim wrote:

It’s possible to hold the stock of this weapon under one arm so you can fire it with a single hand as long as the other hand isn’t holding a weapon, shield, or anything else you would need to move and position, to ensure the weapon doesn’t slip out from under your arm. However, if you use both hands, the weapon can make fatal attacks. When you wield the weapon in two hands, it gains the fatal trait with the listed damage die. Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.

[yellowpete]

You're not switching between those two described grips though with the sequence of actions that OP suggested. You start with the 2-h wielding grip and after the first Release, you only hold the weapon without wielding it. You're never putting it in the special underarm position described by Fatal Aim, and so you also don't need to use an extra Interact action to get it back out of that position.

[Ravingdork]

yellowpete wrote:

You're not switching between those two described grips though with the sequence of actions that OP suggested. You start with the 2-h wielding grip and after the first Release, you only hold the weapon without wielding it. You're never putting it in the special underarm position described by Fatal Aim, and so you also don't need to use an extra Interact action to get it back out of that position.

Sounds super cheesy to me and I'd never allow for it.

You're either holding a weapon one-handed or two-handed. There is no third special option.

The balance cost of using a Deadly Aim weapon is that changing grips takes more effort.

[NorrKnekten]

How is what Yellowpete explained cheesy? Or rather how is this different from the modular trait, or starfinders powered trait.

The balance cost from their explanation is exactly what you mentioned here, You can release your hand of the weapon but effectively cannot use it until you have spent an interact action to change into a proper grip.

Ofcourse one can release a hand from it while wielding it two handed, otherwise you wouldn't be able to reload it.

[Trip.H]

I'm w/ NorrKnekten & yellowpete on this one. The ability to drop a hand while in 2H mode for [fatal aim] and then only require the normal Regrip seems like the fully intended mechanic.

The 1 vs 2H mode is a hard commitment, because you cannot avoid its action cost to mode change regardless of the circumstance. If in 2H mode, you are unable to shoot with a dropped hand to cheese that mode swap, which seems to prevent any problematic shenanigans.

I've got an Exemplar on the shelf that can cheese 2 vs 1 Hand stuff a lot more thanks to throwing attacks. If the weapon fully leaves your hand, you get to choose how you catch it; instead of ever paying 1A to regrip back into 2H mode, just make a throw attack in 1H mode, lol.

________

Edit: lol, I should have re-read the trait first instead of wasting time writing that, the text 100% knew players would ask about this.

fatal aim snip wrote:

[...] Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.

This has also become the #1 text to cite as proof that you do get to regrip 2H weapons via Reload, as a very nice bonus.

[TheFinish]

Ravingdork wrote:

yellowpete wrote:

You're not switching between those two described grips though with the sequence of actions that OP suggested. You start with the 2-h wielding grip and after the first Release, you only hold the weapon without wielding it. You're never putting it in the special underarm position described by Fatal Aim, and so you also don't need to use an extra Interact action to get it back out of that position.

Sounds super cheesy to me and I'd never allow for it.

You're either holding a weapon one-handed or two-handed. There is no third special option.

The balance cost of using a Deadly Aim weapon is that changing grips takes more effort.

Changing grips to wield the weapon in one hand takes more effort. If you simply Release to hold your Jezzail in one hand, that is valid, you just can't use the Jezzail to attack one handed until you Interact to position it properly.

Remember PF2E makes a difference between holding and wielding.

[Gisher]

TheFinish wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

yellowpete wrote:

You're not switching between those two described grips though with the sequence of actions that OP suggested. You start with the 2-h wielding grip and after the first Release, you only hold the weapon without wielding it. You're never putting it in the special underarm position described by Fatal Aim, and so you also don't need to use an extra Interact action to get it back out of that position.

Sounds super cheesy to me and I'd never allow for it.

You're either holding a weapon one-handed or two-handed. There is no third special option.

The balance cost of using a Deadly Aim weapon is that changing grips takes more effort.

Changing grips to wield the weapon in one hand takes more effort. If you simply Release to hold your Jezzail in one hand, that is valid, you just can't use the Jezzail to attack one handed until you Interact to position it properly.

Remember PF2E makes a difference between holding and wielding.

There can sometimes be a distinction between holding and wielding, but I don't think that such a distinction can always exist.

PC, page 267 wrote:

You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively.

Since a jezail or sukgung are one-handed weapons, I read that sentence as saying that if you are holding one of those items in one hand then you are necessarily also wielding it.

Holding a two-handed weapon in one hand, however, would be distinct from wielding it since something like a greatsword cannot be used effectively in one hand.

[NorrKnekten]

And that is correct assuming only the core rules come into play and no ability or trait introduces this distiction.

And the distinction does exist here as its explicitly mentioned in how the trait interacts with ones ability to change grip, Simply using the Release action or reloading isn't enough to change grip but its also obvious that you can use these actions with the weapon with how reloading is stated to work since reload normally is

-Release 1 hand from the weapon
-do the reloading
-change back to 2 handed or remain 1 handed.

Quote:

Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.

Just from what we can infer, if we are to consider it wielding an item simply by holding it in one hand.

Then in order to reload it from two-handed we first swap grip to wield it one handed so we can interact to reload. But since we cannot swap grips as part of reloading from the explicit text within the trait we can only assume that if for some reason during our reload we don't regrip it in two hands then we aren't holding it in the correct grip as that would violate the rule in the trait and thus we are unable to use it until we do grip it.

And that still makes sense from the full paragraph you quoted also include.

Quote:

You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively. When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it around—you’re ready to use it. Other abilities might require you to be wearing the item, to be holding it, or simply to have it.

[yellowpete]

Gisher wrote:

PC, page 267 wrote:

You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively.

Since a jezail or sukgung are one-handed weapons, I read that sentence as saying that if you are holding one of those items in one hand then you are necessarily also wielding it.

This reading ends in the contradiction NorrKnekten lays out – after you Release a hand from two-handed wielding, you would then be simultaneously wielding and not wielding the weapon. The general rules on holding and wielding you quote have an exception carved out here by the more specific Fatal Aim trait – you are not wielding the weapon after such a Release.

[NorrKnekten]

We also have the other issue that so far has been overlooked that I realize now couple of hours later, The Fatal Aim trait does state that the weapon cannot be fired if you are holding anything substantial in your other hand.

So is it really a 1-hand weapon at that point or a 2-hand weapon in disguise, Because that sounds more like a +1-hand weapon with a more relaxed requirement of not needing your hand to be completely free.