Close Quarters Soldier, Archaic Weaponry Heritages, and No Potency Rune as Tracking Item Bonuses to Area Fire DC


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bear with me, I will lay out the pieces of this interaction for those who cannot parse the issue from the title. My question is about textual support, clarity, system compatibility, heritage viability across classes, and balance for these perhaps unforeseen niche interactions. However, the example is highly specific down to subclass, and heritages.

For those familiar with the texts I will describe them before dropping block quotes:

1. Close Quarters Soldier Fighting Style

2. Whirling Swipe Soldier Feat

3. The three Heritages Golarion Survivor Human, Salvation's End Dwarf, and Vali Maraquoi. The last two released April 2026 with Galactic Ancestries. All three grant Archaic weapon familiarity with PF2E weaponry, yet perhaps lack full balance and compatability with one of the main martial classes of Starfinder 2E, due to the precise rules wording of Area Fire, which may or may not have adequately considered this melee Soldier Fighting Style in conjunction with those three Heritages.

4. The most relevant examples of Archaic Advanced Weaponry: the Broadspear. Why the Broadspear? It optimizes Whirling Swipe by having Reach, Sweep, and a d10 base. There are certainly alternatives, and I am curious as to whether Archaic and Non-Archaic weapons with the Two-Handed d# Trait are compatible with melee Soldier, such as a Gada or a Skyfire Sword.

5. Area Fire in the Rules (repurposed for melee bursts by the Fighting Style and Whirling Swipe Feat) particularly the specificity of language around Tracking bonuses, rather than including any Item Bonuses such as a Potency Rune and Anachronistic spell effects like Runic Weapon.

6. GM Core regarding tinkering Starfinder options for compatability with Pathfinder options in the context of Anachronistic Adventures. These three Heritages are supposed to be viable on martial classes outside of Anachronistic Adventures, yet the recommended tinkering seems necessary at level 2 onwards for scaling item bonuses to Melee Area Burst DC, whenever these Heritages are used on a melee Soldier regardless of whether the Adventure is Anachronistic or not.

7. As mentioned elsewhere, in Starfinder Society Play, these three Heritages apparently do not come with automatic access to Archaic Property Runes and Striking Runes, and must first buy an Adventure Boon for 20 points. They will reach level 2 before they earn 20 points at 5 per session, if this is their first SFS character, nevermind the context of character creation now sometimes starting at a higher levels. In my opinion, this incompatible access and progression rate does not create a good first impression, especially for players who just bought Galactic Ancestries and jumped into SFS, though the Human archaic option isn't new. And this is merely a tangent off the core issue: rules as written, the Potency Runes do not provide Tracking-like bonuses to "Area-Fire" DC in the same way that their non-Archaic counterparts receive such bonuses from Tracking.

So, the quotations:

1.

Player Core pg. 153 regarding Close Quarters Fighting Style for the Soldier Class wrote:

While you have the necessary training to employ heavy weapons, you believe it's important to keep a backup for when foes get too close. You might be a veteran Veskarium trooper who knows their way around a doshko or a devotee of Zon-Shelyn dealing holy wrath with a painglaive. Blows with heavy close combat weapons hinder your foes just as effectively as when you fire a rotolaser or a missile launcher.

As long as you're wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you meet the requirements for soldier feats that require an area weapon. When using a soldier feat, you can treat any two-handed melee weapon you're wielding as having the area (burst 5 feet), allowing you to area fire with the weapon centering the burst on a corner of a square you occupy, and you are unaffected by attacks with that weapon. You can make a melee Strike with a two-handed melee weapon instead of a ranged Strike with primary target or any soldier feat. In addition, you gain the Whirling Swipe feat.

2.

Player Core pg. 155 regarding the Whirling Swipe feat wrote:

Requirements You’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon.

You swipe your weapon in a wide swing to create a deadly arc. Your weapon gains the area (burst 5 feet) and unwieldy traits until the end of the turn. If your weapon has reach, the burst radius becomes the reach of your weapon. Area Fire with the required weapon, centering the burst on a corner of a square you occupy. You’re excluded from the burst. If you’re using a weapon with the backswing or sweep trait, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to the save DC of the attack. If you have the primary target class feature, the primary target Strike you make is a melee Strike, rather than a ranged Strike.

3A.

Player Core pg. 51 regarding the Golarion Survivor Human Heritage wrote:
Your ancestors lived on Golarion, and though the precise circumstances of their survival are lost to the Gap, you strongly identify with the lost planet's cultures. You become trained in Golarion Lore, and you learn a bonus language that was spoken in your lineage's region of origin. You have familiarity with archaic weapons and, for purposes of proficiency, treat one archaic weapon of your choice that's a martial weapon as a simple weapon, or that's an advanced weapon as a martial weapon.

3B. (SF1E spoilers ahead)

Galactic Ancestries pg. 58 regarding Salvation's End Dwarf Heritage wrote:
You grew up on Golarion, following Torag's Quest for Sky. One day, a group of strangers arrived, claiming to be from the surface... and the stars beyond. These “starfinders” told your clan, Clan Marbleheart, that you lived inside a simulation. Your whole reality was a lie created by the guiding intelligence of the artificial moon of Salvation's End. Though Clan Marbleheart has escaped and is slowly integrating with other dwarves, you are displaced in time and might never truly understand the galaxy you've been thrust into. You have familiarity with archaic weapons. For the purposes of proficiency, treat one martial archaic weapon of your choice as a simple weapon or an advanced archaic weapon as a martial weapon. If that weapon has the dwarf trait and you succeed at a saving throw against a fear effect while wielding it, you get a critical success instead. Otherwise, that weapon gains the dwarf trait as long as you wield it.

3C.

Galactic Ancestries pg. 146 regarding Vali Maraquoi Heritage wrote:

In the shadow of Ouat Vali, the Shining City, isolationist maraquoi tribes train their youth who wish to preserve thousands of years of history and an ancient way of life. These isolationists have learned to mistrust outsiders and to use the tools of their ancestors with incredible precision. You come from a tribe that has, at least in part, rejected the call to join galactic society.

You become trained in Warfare Lore. If you would automatically become trained in Warfare Lore (from your background or class, for example), you instead become trained in another skill of your choice. You gain access and familiarity with an archaic or analog weapon of your choice. For the purposes of proficiency, you treat that martial weapon as a simple weapon, or that advanced weapon as a martial weapon. If you're trained in all martial weapons or guns from your class, you can choose an uncommon advanced weapon instead. You gain access to that weapon, and for purposes of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a martial weapon.

4A.

Archives of Nethys PF2E links to Archaic weapon example:
Broadspear (for optimizing Whirling Swipe)
https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=280

4B.

Player Core pg. 442 regarding the Archaic Trait wrote:

Armor with the archaic is crafted using traditional methods and materials. All armors from Pathfinder have the archaic trait. Armor runes function normally with archaic armor.

A shield with the archaic is crafted using traditional methods and materials but isn't suitable for withstanding attacks from modern weapons. All shields from Pathfinder have the archaic trait. Shield runes function normally with archaic shields.

A weapon with the archaic is crafted using traditional methods and materials. All weapons from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game have the archaic trait. Weapon runes function normally with archaic weapons, but these weapons have no upgrade slots.

I am quoting this to cover my bases and provide a full picture, because it says absolutely nothing about substitutions for Tracking, unless you take a really generous interpretation of "function normally".

5.

Player Core pg. 410 regarding Area Fire wrote:
You attempt to hit each creature in a designated area, which has a range equal to the weapon's range increment (for cone or line) or a designated radius of the explosion (for burst). For burst, you can position the center point anywhere within your first range increment. Any creatures in the area must succeed at a basic Reflex save against your class DC plus the tracking value of the weapon (you don't roll an attack roll). This damage is area damage. Creatures who critically fail this save are subject to effects that occur on a critical hit with this weapon, including the weapon's critical specialization effect. Area Fire has an expend equal to the value listed on the weapon.

I am going to repeat the pivotal sentence: "Any creatures in the area must succeed at a basic Reflex save against your class DC plus the tracking value of the weapon". Tracking Value. This is your reminder that archaic weapons do not have Tracking values, and if I am not mistaken are unfortunately not directly instructed to use their Potency Runes' item bonuses as substitutes for Tracking in contexts like Area Fire.

6A.

GM Core pg. 252 regarding Anachronistic Gear wrote:

Usability Guideline

The rules here, like those elsewhere in this chapter, are guidelines for how to mix elements of both Pathfinder and Starfinder together. Exactly how this type of equipment works between game systems is up to the GM or is detailed in specific products that broach this topic. The rules herein should be considered optional rules. These rules aren't enabled by default for a campaign unless the GM and players are all in agreement. In effect, timeshifted equipment should generally be considered uncommon options.

........

The ellicoth in the room when discussing implementing Pathfinder gear is item grades. In Starfinder, items are improved by buying or crafting upgrades to your gear to progress them from commercial to paragon grade. While this consolidates and simplifies the terminology used to describe magic armor and other magic items, it does mean that certain abilities that refer to grades of gear might not function with Pathfinder items that are otherwise acceptable inclusions into a Starfinder campaign.

By default, all equipment from Pathfinder has the archaic trait to distinguish it from equipment made using modern crafting techniques and technology. Archaic armor and weapons aren't analog or tech and can't be upgraded like normal equipment. You could simply allow characters with Pathfinder equipment to apply runes, as some crafters still know these ancient techniques. Alternatively, you could modify equipment without runes in the process of upgrading it. By spending an additional week and paying half the base Price of the equipment, you could install the technology required to apply upgrades, integrate tech like comm units and environmental protectiona into armor, and add upgrade slots to shields and weapons. In the case of armor, you can even allow players to pay only half the base price by giving the armor the exposed trait, denying themselves the benefits of environmental protections. The end result would be a commercial grade piece of equipment with the tech trait and one upgrade slot.

This quotation is relevant because it seems to vaguely acknowledge the incompatibility of certain abilities (such as Soldier Close Quarters Fighting Style Area Fire) with Pathfinder items (ie Potency Runes). For a dual system pair boasting compatability, I thought the lack of guidance and prescriptive solutions here is pretty staggering. And yet, the level progression rate and currency costs make it clear that Potency Rune and Tracking values should be functionally interchangeable as far as these Close Quarters class features and feats are concerned.

6B.

GM Core pg. 246 regarding Archaic Heroes wrote:
System compatibility makes it easy for your PCs to seamlessly utilize their favorite Starfinder options in a Pathfinder campaign. But Starfinder has certain assumptions that Pathfinder does not, and transferring mechanics from one game to another might require some tinkering.

Is the default assumption of Tracking values, over both Tracking and the Potency Runes of Archaic Weapons coexisting due to Heritages, one of those "certain assumptions" of Starfinder? It seems to me that it is a false assumption made without the ubiquity of those Heritages in mind. I'd argue that these two quotations vaguely imply a need for tinkering Potency Runes as a melee Area Fire substitute for Tracking, whenever one of those three Heritages is in play, and regardless of whether the wider adventure itself is or is not anachronistic. Otherwise, the scaling and viability of a core martial class falters by gradually increasing margins as level increases to 2, 10, and 16 when the Potency Runes and Tracking values item bonuses increase.

(And in Mythic Anachronistic Games with Mythic Weapon Potency and homebrewed SF Mythic Weapon Grades. The lack of SF GM Core guidance on War of Immortals Mythic Rules compatability for SF was disappointing to me, as a consumer, but it's not difficult to homebrew.)

7.

Organized Play SF2E Adventure Boons wrote:

Expanded Options–GM Core Runes

This character gains access to runes from Pathfinder GM Core for use on archaic items.
Price: 20.

A character with those three Heritages could start at a higher level. And from Level 1 would want this boon's access after only 15 points are earned from three games to level up from 1 to 2. So, for the sake of viable higher level character creation and balancing, why is the Heritage not enough to access the Runes?

And perhaps more importantly, why are Potency Runes on Archaic Weapons not treated as viable substitutes for Tracking values by default on melee Area Fire? Why is this "tinkering" or substitution not prescribed in the Heritage text? Why does it not mention Potency Runes in the Heritages, only in the embedded Archaic trait?

I am left with the impression that the archaic weapon heritages, and Close Quarters Soldier, were designed separately from each other. Were they tested in combination? They seem not fully compatible. The alternative explanation, I suppose, could be that the developers were okay with Archaic melee Soldiers falling behind by +3 item bonus to Area Fire DC at Level 16 to 20, or never wanted archaic weapons used efficiently for the main staple of a martial class. It seems more likely to me that the current wording of Area Fire may not have been written with archaic melee weapon compatability in mind.

Starfinder

Answer to SFS: Suck it up until Paizo makes a boon or ruling to make it work. It's organized play, after all, so every rule is read and used tighter to work as a guideline for every GM.

Answer for Home Games: Do whatever vibes with your group.

Quote:
I am left with the impression that the archaic weapon heritages, and Close Quarters Soldier, were designed separately from each other.

I would go as far as to say that the "OK, we got the needed amount of cross-compability out there, said that the GM may need to consider some changes if necessary, and will now leave it at that, as in the past as in the future there will be too many cases that even trying to cover it will too much text. We seriously don't need to cover a PF-character slinging killer whales that might be converted to a SF-character whipping space whales ourselves, or to cover any little odd option we did in the Player Core just to clean up every bit of compatibility issue with our partner system, which is still another system in the end."-attitude have taken over.

Personal take: Gee, I wonder why weapons keep on evolving, as if they need to adapt to different kinds of fighting styles and warfare and old weapons are optimized to their thing and new weapons are optimized for other things. :P

Liberty's Edge

I didn't realize Astrazoans seem to be able to hijack those archaic weapon Heritages with their Ancestral Weapon Familiarity feat from Galaxy Guide pg. 131.

I also didn't realize there is a separate Rules Discussion subforum for SF2E. Seems like an organization oversight that this one for SF1E is easier to find than that one, and the edition isn't labeled.

Community / Forums / Starfinder / Rules Questions / Close Quarters Soldier, Archaic Weaponry Heritages, and No Potency Rune as Tracking Item Bonuses to Area Fire DC All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.