Crossbow Slayer Might Do Better With Weapon Group

[moosher12]

I feel that Crossbow Slayer should be able to apply to weapons in the crossbow weapon group, rather than just crossbows. Gives ability to switch to a heavy crossbow or a hand crossbow, and would provide compatibility with Starfinder's crossbolter.

[Shinigami02]

Are we sure it doesn't already? That's the (possibly Hopeful Thinking) way I was reading it already, though I'll admit with Crossbow being both a specific weapon and a weapon group there is some ambiguity there.

[Sagiam]

CROSSBOW SLAYER wrote:

Interacting to reload gains the relentless trait for you.

This is the only part of the text that interacts with the rules. The sentence before this is flavour.

While it's certainly tied to crossbows in the flavour, there is nothing that prevents you from using it with a gun, sling or anything else that has the reload trait.

[moosher12]

You forgot to read the Special segment, the special with Consecrated Panoply only lets you load the spike into a crossbow. Not a hand crossbow, not a heavy crossbow, not an arbalest, not a crossbolter. Only a crossbow. The special effect, if Sagiam's interpretation was right, it'd have to say ranged weapon here, not crossbow.

Crossbow Slayer wrote:

If you have a consecrated panoply signature tool, you can load a hunting spike into a crossbow when you reload it. The next time you use Hunting Spike, its thrown trait uses the crossbow’s range increment.

[graystone]

moosher12 wrote:

I feel that Crossbow Slayer should be able to apply to weapons in the crossbow weapon group, rather than just crossbows. Gives ability to switch to a heavy crossbow or a hand crossbow, and would provide compatibility with Starfinder's crossbolter.

Looks at Crossbow Ace

once. It says "You are wielding a crossbow with reload 1 or higher" and just mentions crossbows in general. It's clear that it means the group and not the individual weapon.

Crossbow Terror just mentions crossbow when it's clear it's meant for the group.

Crossbow Crack Shot mentions crossbows but makes it clear to covers the group by mentioning what happens if you're using a crossbow with backstab.

I think it's safe to go with the more expansive reading unless it's clear that it means JUST the simple weapon crossbow.

[moosher12]

I know well how I'd home rule it, but players deserve their protections against a GM that decides to say, "Just crossbow."

[Shinigami02]

Things were definitely simpler when "Crossbow" was just the name of the Group, and then the individual weapon was the Light Crossbow. I get the reason for the change, but it did make things like this less troublesome.

[kaid]

I may be reading it wrong but about the only part of the crossbow that is used is its range so minimal reasons to ever use the heavier ones. The damage is going to be kinda meh regardless and it mostly is a weakness trigger projectile.

[cetology]

kaid wrote:

I think that's right. It also seems like, as written, you can only use one-handed crossbows and you need to actually reload to gain the benefits.

"you can load a hunting spike into a crossbow when you reload it. The next time you use Hunting Spike, its thrown trait uses the crossbow's range increment"

"Requirements You have a free hand and are wearing your consecrated panoply signature tool"

So you aren't actually firing the crossbow.

[kaid]

cetology wrote:

kaid wrote:

I think that's right. It also seems like, as written, you can only use one-handed crossbows and you need to actually reload to gain the benefits.

"you can load a hunting spike into a crossbow when you reload it. The next time you use Hunting Spike, its thrown trait uses the crossbow's range increment"

"Requirements You have a free hand and are wearing your consecrated panoply signature tool"

So you aren't actually firing the crossbow.

Yeah stuff like this makes me kinda think this is going to get some errata or a look at. Just seems kinda weird and underwhelming like why would I even try to shoot these out of a crossbow at those levels why not just shoot the crossbow and do more damage. Unless you knew a target had a massive weakness to holy/unholy and at low levels that just isn't common enough to warrant all of this.

[graystone]

kaid wrote:

Yeah stuff like this makes me kinda think this is going to get some errata or a look at. Just seems kinda weird and underwhelming like why would I even try to shoot these out of a crossbow at those levels why not just shoot the crossbow and do more damage. Unless you knew a target had a massive weakness to holy/unholy and at low levels that just isn't common enough to warrant all of this.

The weapon is still a thrown weapon so you add Str damage so at first, you could be doing 1d4+3 [vs 1d8 for normal crossbow] and that's not bad and it can trigger S and P weaknesses [and Holy]. At 4th, you can pick up the upgrade feat and add 1d6+4 B, so able to trigger all the physical weaknesses + you can add silver or cold iron. And if the target has none of those weaknesses, you can always fire the crossbow normally.

An interesting character would be to pick up both Bloodseeking Blade [Sukgung] and Consecrated Panoply.

[moosher12]

kaid wrote:

I may be reading it wrong but about the only part of the crossbow that is used is its range so minimal reasons to ever use the heavier ones. The damage is going to be kinda meh regardless and it mostly is a weakness trigger projectile.

Even if a crossbow and a heavy crossbow have the same range, if a heavy crossbow happens to be your main weapon, it's problematic. If you made a heavy crossbow your main weapon, you'd have to seperately carry a normal crossbow to use the spikes. And it'd be simpler across the board to just invest 2 actions loading the heavy crossbow, than spending those same two actions having to swap to a normal crossbow and load it with the spike. while the action economy is the same, now I have to carry 3 bulk instead of 2, and bulk sneaks up on you as it is. Also, it just removes the fun flavor of firing off your spike from your favored weapon, if you choose for it to be the heavy crossbow. Plus you'd have the option of using the light bulk hand crossbow for a still respectable 60-foot range increment over the dagger's 20-foot increment, which has its own benefits.

[YuriP]

IMO it should be “weapon with reload 1 or greater”. I don't see reason to exclude firearms. Having a Slayer with a hunting gun makes sense IMO then change the feat name to other thing.

[exequiel759]

YuriP wrote:

IMO it should be “weapon with reload 1 or greater”. I don't see reason to exclude firearms. Having a Slayer with a hunting gun makes sense IMO then change the feat name to other thing.

It surprised me the lack of firearm support since the class borrows a few things from Bloodborne here and there.

Not like Bloodborne hunters are the only hunters that use guns though.

[YuriP]

Yet the class has support for combination weapons, and the majority of combination weapons are firearms.

[exequiel759]

YuriP wrote:

Yet the class has support for combination weapons, and the majority of combination weapons are firearms.

I mean, that's barely enough. Some form of action compression to reload at some point is needed as well. They could even make it a relentless action.

[cetology]

As written, you can use Crossbow Slayer with firearms. All the base feat does is adds the relentless trait to Interacting to reload. There's no explicit restriction to crossbows or requirement to be wielding a crossbow (strange as that is).

Of course the Special does require a crossbow (and a free hand), but that makes sense. Can't really fire daggers out of a gun.

[moosher12]

YuriP wrote:

IMO it should be “weapon with reload 1 or greater”. I don't see reason to exclude firearms. Having a Slayer with a hunting gun makes sense IMO then change the feat name to other thing.

While I'd love for it to apply to firearms on the special, I think a case can be made that specialized bullets need to be made for a spike to work from a gun. Definitely would not mind gun compatibility, of course. But I'd understand if they kept it to crossbows. And it still remains compatible with Starfinder because Crossbolter would be a thing.

The base ability definitely does look like it'd apply to any reloading weapon, though, which is good. I just wanna see the scope of the stakes expanded to other crossbows.